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  1. #281
    [QUOTE=JavelinJoe;52681979]Lets be honest dude, anyone with logic and 99% of people would agree. If you went to any gamer on earth and told them WoW is $49.99 every 2 years, plus $15 a month AND has an ingame store, they'd say that was wrong. Not gonna argue the toss with you literally go on youtube, watch any video game channel they've all spoken about this, its greed. Stop being deluded.[p/quote]Prove it. You are doing nothing more than making up numbers to validate your opinion into fact. Also, the opi9nion of Youtubersdoesn't mean squat because they will say whatever they have to to get clicks from people like you. I'm not the one being deluded here. That goes to the one who is trying to claim that everyone agrees with him.

    No I didnt imply it actually thanks very much. I never said I get to dictate what others spend their money on nor do I think that, stop putting words in other peoples mouthes. Im entitled to an opinion on how any company should run too thanks. Thats the great thing about opinions. You cant tell me that I cant say that Blizzard triple dipping peoples pockets is greedy.
    Yes you did imply it because you constantly delacre your opinion fact and talk down to, and demean, everyone who isn't in lockstep with you. There is a difference between an opinion of how a business should be run and you declaring how a business should be run then demeaning anyone who doesn't agree with you.

    So what you're saying is theres an entire division of talented artists just trying to squeeze even more money out of the players? I dont see how you can say ideas arent being used up, thats just objectively false.
    Yes. They were hired with the intent of creating items to be used across all their games. Notice how none of the things in the cash shop are relevant to actual game development. IF the cash shop does not exists, the resources used to put things in the cash shop disappear. The work on the WoW mounts for the cash shop does not come out of WoW's budget. That comes out of hte cash shop budget. The only thing that is objectively false is the claim that the resources use int he cash shop they would go into the game if the cash shop didn't exist.

    All of the wow store mounts tie into whats going on in the game/world.
    No they don't. They have zero bearing on the in game world. They are just themed to fit.

    You're a bit of a broken record arent you Rrayy, jeez. Ill say it again anyway. I know its my opinion, I know others like you dont share my opinion. Stop telling me that I cant have one nor post it. I already addressed your accusations out of thin fucking air on me trying to dictate anything. I shared my opinion on how insidious the practice is, stop trying to tell me I cant post it.
    I never said you can't post your opinion. Posting your opinion is not what you are doing. What you are doing is trying to dictate how the game should be run then you are insulting and demeaning anyone who is fine with the cash shop, all while looking downj your nose at them. If you were merely posting your opinion, you would't be demeaning or insulting anyone.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by agentsi View Post
    I will concede that Wildstars housing system was without a doubt, the best I've ever seen. And it made sense, as well as gave a practical purpose to it. No other game has ever done this type of system that well. But then again, the game crashed and burned. So what did it even matter?

    No one really wants player housing. It's stupid in just about every game and is usually a total waste of time/resources. In every game metric, I've ever seen, outside of FFXIV, player housing is a wash, and more often than not, a total loss. Players never use it enough, it doesn't serve a real purpose, and often times eliminates the social aspect of MMOs as folks just hide away.

    I think guild halls though, would probably be a decent idea. A place for your guildmates to hang out and do stuff. But again, it would go against what WoW wants to do. And garrisons ruined it, as folks just wanted it for its money-making potential.
    As WildStar proved, a cool Housing system isn't going to SAVE an otherwise failing MMO. That's definitely true.

    That doesn't mean it isn't incredibly useful for player-retention, though. The fact that virtually (if not literally) every MMO on the market not only has a Housing system, but has continued to add to theirs, is evidence that they are clearly very well received by players.

    You mention "in every game metric [you've] every seen"... what metrics *have* you seen? I'm admittedly big into data, so if you have seen any stats on the subject, I'd genuinely love to see! Without hard data, though, all we can do is extrapolate based on what we've seen OTHER MMO's do with their Housing systems. To which, I point back to the previous paragraph.

    Personally, I would say the best solution is you still have individual housing, but the Guild Master is able to tag any guildmate's house as their "Guild Hall", creating an easy access point for your guild to meet. That way, players can still have their individual houses, but still also have that benefit of "this is where the guild can meet to hang-out". At the risk of adding a "gameplay feature" to housing, maybe whatever house is marked as a Guild Hall could also provide guildies a teleport/hearthstone to it?

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    Clearly, Housing isn't going to save a failing MMO, that's absolutely true. But it's also very obviously that, when you see every MMO that does have Housing, suddenly devotes a ton of resources towards expanding it? It must be met with some measure of success.

    It's not as though a Housing system is going to come in lieu of everything else. Resources are finite, but it's a bullshit argument to suggest "anything spent on something I don't like is wasted resources/development". In my experience, most players either only enjoy PvE, but that doesn't mean they need to cut PvP (although admittedly, I think "World PvP" just isn't going to take off).

    Garrisons were terrible, but context is also hugely important; Garrisons provided you all of your gathering resources as well. Unlike proper Housing -- which is entirely optional -- Garrisons were MANDATORY. Hell, a lot of your GEAR came from them, too, because of the "Mission table".

    They might also take the approach of "settlements", in which yours isn't the only house in view. Being able to look at other players' houses is a hugely social aspect, and even instanced housing like WildStar still promoted a social atmosphere. Maybe your Guild could mark one player's house as their "guild hall" you could recall to? Not necessarily the GM's specifically, so it's not quite so isolated an experience.
    I don't even know why uninstanced housing is so popular either. The whole point of player housing is just cosmetic. It's something that you have the option to go out into the world, do some shit, and make your own personal house look neat.

    Tie it into the economy in some regards. Make it a gold sink like Runescape does.

    I think the biggest reason why WoW doesn't want to do this is that they don't really keep any content around. Once the new expansion comes out, all of the old content is thrown away and made extremely trivial. The only "evergreen" content we've gotten was the Chromie thing.

    I wish there was a way to implement evergreen content into WoW, but I just don't think it's going to happen at this point in time. They have had too many expansions and have fully hopped on the trend of abandoning everything once the expansion is over. They would need to start over from the beginning and find a way to make all content "evergreen" giving some kind of weight to player housing choices, otherwise it's going to be the same thing as we have now. You spend all expansion trying to get the coolest stuff only for it to become trivial the next expansion.

  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    And its a HUGE WASTE OF DEVELOPMENT TIME FOR MANY GAMERS. All the other mmos you have mentioned have crashed and burned with the exception of FF. One could argue that they should have spent more time building a compelling and interesting game that functioned correctly, instead of spending countless hours allowing us to hang some pictures in a silly little building.

    Garrisons were unpopular for many reasons, but one very common theme was it killed the open world mmo feeling, with people just spending all their time running around a silly little instanced area with no other players.
    I still sit in my garrison while queueing for arenas. I wish we had player housing. I want to get away from the busy city life.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    i dont understand how you can deny a factual demostrable statement....
    Demonstrate with proof then.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by nacixems View Post
    yea, but there where alot of fun aspects of the game and housing was one of the best. imo.
    Aye, I like the idea of player housing.

    My main fear is a but like the high elf thing, and classic tbh, you let the community run with idea for long time they start flying off into the fantasy land of what it could be so far that what they get in reality can only be a disappointment, I mean in this thread alone and some of the stuff is things that take multiple mods made over years for skyrim and this is wow which is much much older and nearly buckled and has nearly fallen over due to all the corruption random stuff.

    Might just me being a programmer that I get a little irate when ever I see wish listing for games or any software that dosnt consider technical limitations, performance budgets and resource allocation though. But end of the day those are the things that will get in the way and make sure what ever we get will always be much less than what the community is allowed the freedom of fantasy to dream up.

    Big example being garrisons, which technology wise aren't far removed from how player housing would work, but the technology issues and problems implementing garrisons were so great not only did it mean garrisons fell well short of what was promised but it had the knock on effect of hampering the whole expansions development.

    Which is why my stance on the matter is I wish wow had player housing, and I think the devs know people want it and they probly want it to, but there's technogical limitations that prevent it or overcoming those issues would be to much of a resource investment.
    Last edited by Monster Hunter; 2020-09-29 at 03:14 PM.

  7. #287
    Because the game, the world and the back end isn't designed to handle housing.

    The game just isnt made for it. The camera is also terrible, imagine putting up a painting and never be able to see it properly unless your'e in first person. Because who the fuck is using first person?

    Your "house" would have to be the size of our garrison with no roof. Several floors is a no no

    You also couldn't place your "house" out in the world so it would be a boring portal somewhere that teleport you, how fun is that?

    Go play minecraft instead.

  8. #288
    no please, rather have them spend the time on other stuff.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    Demonstrate with proof then.
    All wod cut content:

    1. The scrapped interior of Karabor
    2. The Chronal Spire, Tanaan and Farahlon
    3. Fungal Whale World Boss
    4. Shattrath Raid
    5. Zangermarsh Zone
    6. Unfinished Battlegrounds/Arenas
    7. All cut Garrison content [From what we KNOW]
    8. Bladespire Citadel
    9. Ages of War Await
    10. Early Gorgrond
    11. Blood Elf Models.
    12. Yrel's Dark Secret
    13. Feral Worgen storyline in Shadowmoon Valley.
    14. Maraad & Yrel relationship and more
    15. Flying
    16. Tabard Tab
    17. Ogre Island and Unnamed Large Southern Continent
    18. Medivh Cameo
    19. Gorehowl Legendary Weapon
    20. Grommash Hellscream End Boss
    21. Broken Horn Village
    22. Unused Hairstyles
    23. Kargath Survives
    24. Ancient Rylaks
    25. Orgrim Doomhammer Plot
    26. Trial of the Gladiator and Class Accessories

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...rds-of-Draenor

    Thanks @TheramoreIsTheBomb

    There was also a whole raid tier missing, a grave stone near the garrison has a memorial to the lost raid tier with the name Ray d tear on it.
    @deenman sorry to jump in.
    Last edited by Monster Hunter; 2020-09-29 at 03:32 PM.

  10. #290
    Wow does not need that as well as it didnt need pet battles, garrisons, transmog, multiple difficulty levels and a whole list of things the game did not have when suscription numbers where on the rise.

    They will do it if they want, the same way they implemented other things to the game some people wanted and some did not.

  11. #291
    I will never understand the desire for player housing. Like, that would just make the game even more anti social? I had to roll on an RP realm just to get people to say "hi" in chat and not be a 24/7 bot spam.

  12. #292
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    You make it sound like a bad thing that they didnt waste resources on housing.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Crabs have been removed from the game... because if I see another one I’m just going to totally lose it. *sobbing* I’m sorry, I just can’t right now... I just... OK just give me a minute, I’ll be OK..

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    Demonstrate with proof then.
    uhm,cata had a huge zone revamp,and we saw them presenting the early plans for cata were huge when it came to raiding content,and it ended up being cut more than half,and dragon soul used all existing models,including the zone

    wod was the first epxansion to have 2 tiers only,and even the graveyard in the garrison had a joke grave saying something like rip raid tier

    also its not called milking content when you have more content vs less,yeah the progression systems were more...ehm...progressive?over time,you know there is a reason why wod and cata are seen as the worst expansions

    and wile i personaly did like wod,i still wish it had more content,i was siting there every major patch thinking....oh...more is coming for sure....until i realised that this was it i was left in pure shock

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    All wod cut content:

    1. The scrapped interior of Karabor
    2. The Chronal Spire, Tanaan and Farahlon
    3. Fungal Whale World Boss
    4. Shattrath Raid
    5. Zangermarsh Zone
    6. Unfinished Battlegrounds/Arenas
    7. All cut Garrison content [From what we KNOW]
    8. Bladespire Citadel
    9. Ages of War Await
    10. Early Gorgrond
    11. Blood Elf Models.
    12. Yrel's Dark Secret
    13. Feral Worgen storyline in Shadowmoon Valley.
    14. Maraad & Yrel relationship and more
    15. Flying
    16. Tabard Tab
    17. Ogre Island and Unnamed Large Southern Continent
    18. Medivh Cameo
    19. Gorehowl Legendary Weapon
    20. Grommash Hellscream End Boss
    21. Broken Horn Village
    22. Unused Hairstyles
    23. Kargath Survives
    24. Ancient Rylaks
    25. Orgrim Doomhammer Plot
    26. Trial of the Gladiator and Class Accessories

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...rds-of-Draenor

    Thanks @TheramoreIsTheBomb

    There was also a whole raid tier missing, a grave stone near the garrison has a memorial to the lost raid tier with the name Ray d tear on it.
    @deenman sorry to jump in.
    jump in all you want,also you didnt mention cata...cata also had HUGE cut content,we saw their presentation before cata launched with all their plans regarding raiding,less than half made it in,and dragon soul had all re-used assets,and if im not mistaken the team has never been bigger than it was in cata(dont quote me could be wrong but im remembering something about this)

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by confety View Post
    Wow does not need that as well as it didnt need pet battles, garrisons, transmog, multiple difficulty levels and a whole list of things the game did not have when suscription numbers where on the rise.

    They will do it if they want, the same way they implemented other things to the game some people wanted and some did not.
    I'd be willing to wager that more people care about transmog than raiding

  15. #295
    Never happening, wow is the low effort fast food mmo. At best you get one time garbage like garrison, which gets nothing and get discarded for the next expansion for the "next low effort perk."

  16. #296
    I tried housing in ESO and I just couldn't be bothered to do the virtual equivalent of decorating a toy dollhouse. It's just not my thing. Sure, they looked cool, but ultimately they just became additional spots for me to use to teleport around the world.

  17. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Saying just ignore it is the same flawed logic so many people seem to display. Its the principle that counts. WoW is the most expensive mainstream game in the world to play, purely based on payment made to the company that run it. And you STILL dont get all the content.
    I would argue that your principle is logically flawed though, on a number of levels. I do not believe for one second that your objection to the shop is based on reasonable grounds, but is attributable rather to an overly zealous and flawed view you have chosen to adopt.

    Yes, WoW is a fairly expensive game to play. But by the same token it also provides a lot of content. Per hour spent on the game, I would argue that WoW is likely one of the least expensive games to play. Regardless, you cannot reasonably deny the monumental amount of work that goes into making (and running) this game. The cost (relative to other games) is well justified.

    Secondly, your complaint that we have to pay (the shop) for some of the "content" is quite ridiculous. What the shop offers is fluff. If some of the actual game content was locked behind an additional pay wall, then I could probably agree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    dont even suggest putting more stuff in the store when every player should be screaming for them to stop selling off game items on the side.
    No. Seriously, NO.

    I realise that you believe that you're fighting a righteous battle here, but you're horribly misguided and what you're proposing would do far more harm than good. It's like a person living off welfare fighting for lower taxes. Shop sales makes up a significant chunk of the game's total revenue. Without it, one of two things would happen:
    1) The development budget would be significantly cut
    2) They would increase the subscription rates significantly

    At least with the shop, people like you and me can play the game and all the content at a significantly discounted rate because whales are funding the balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Not sure what you dont understand about the principle that triple dipping peoples pockets is wrong. Not sure what you dont understand about the fact that when you pay upfront cost for access to an expansion, plus 15 dollars a month subscription to play/support future development that they're then putting content they create with that money in another store you need to make another payment for isnt wrong.
    As I said, using the store is entirely optional. So your entire argument here falls apart because there is no need to spend any money on the shop at all.

    Also, stop using the term "triple dipping". Because that term implies that you're essentially paying for the same thing multiple times. The reality is that you're actually paying for very different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Even if this is true, it dosent change the fact that a) artist talent is being taken away from the main team to work on content that requires a third payment to access, and b) artists making unique mounts are using valuable idea's and concepts up that then cannot be done again for in game items.
    Artists who likely wouldn't have a job at all if it wasn't for the shop.

    This idea that the shop is robbing the game of development resources is so short sighted that it utterly amazes me that anyone actually believes it. Tell me, what exactly do you think would happen to the development team if suddenly the game lost (total thumb suck here) 25% of it's total revenue?

    In what world would mr Bobby Kottick choose to reduce the profit margin of the game (and more importantly, his bonus) in order to maintain the staff complement working on the game? Certainly not this one. There would be massive budget cuts, good people would lose their jobs, and WoW as game would start it's final death spiral.

    But sure, let's fight for principles based on knee-jerk responses and gut feelings rather than thinking things through!

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Example. They make a 'ghost ram', that ghost ram might look awesome to me, my favorite mount, but now, because they put one in the store, they will never be able to put one that looks like taht in game as a drop.
    Well if they laid off a third of their art staff because it was no longer financially viable to keep them on, you'd not only never see that ghost ram drop in the game, but a bunch of other shit too.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Its greed. I fail to see how you or anyone else cant see that. WoW is a ridiculously expensive game and they triple dip their playerbases pockets in a way that is shameful.
    You're conflating different issues. I won't even disagree with you that ActiBlizzard is greedy, and that people like Bobby Kottick are shameful in their pursuit of that greed. But that isn't the fault of the shop. Nor would it change if the shop didn't exist. And quite frankly, this isn't even an issue about WoW or Blizzard, it's a fundamental problem with rampant capitalism in society - which is the topic of entirely different debate that I have little interest in getting into here or now.

    Even if Blizzard did reduce their profit margin to a more reasonable level, I would still support the existence of the shop as part of the revenue, preferring instead to see discounts on the monthly subscription fees and that of the boxed set. Or better yet, I'd like to see the staff at Blizzard get better pay, and maybe more content added to the game.

    Any way you look at it, the triple pronged revenue stream is good for us:

    - Paying for the game ensures that everyone who plays contributes
    - Paying subscription ensures that people who play more, contribute more
    - Having a shop places a portion of the financial burden onto willing payers and helps keep costs down for the rest of us
    Last edited by Raelbo; 2020-09-29 at 04:48 PM.

  18. #298
    housing is not popular

  19. #299
    As this forum and topic alone demonstrates, WoW players are too fucking retarded to even take care of themselves, let alone a pretend house. It's a great idea, but it would overwhelm the vast majority of MMO-C tongue-chewers.

  20. #300
    Yeah, it's odd.
    Housing in Wildstar was a blast and I just loved collecting stuff for it and improving it here and there.
    Same in SWtOR.

    Wish WoW could have something like that and as the OP says, it's all there already or most of it anyway.

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