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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by glowpipe View Post
    "I consistently feel used by them as an organization."

    And it didn't go further then this to invalidate your ENTIRE post

    You are not BEING used by blizzard. you LET THEM. You pay them money on your own free accord. If you feel like blizzard is using you, obviously you are not getting your moneys worth. so cancel your sub and never look back. And that is how easy it was to fix that problem
    Nah dude, Blizzard has BILLIONS of dollars. They don't need people like us. They can just like, you know, put a personal ad in the newspaper and pay people to log onto computers to do the testing for them. Instead they're taking advantage of us schmucks by asking us to test whether their shit works before they release it to... uh.............. us. Those DICKS!

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by glowpipe View Post
    "I consistently feel used by them as an organization."

    And it didn't go further then this to invalidate your ENTIRE post

    You are not BEING used by blizzard. you LET THEM. You pay them money on your own free accord. If you feel like blizzard is using you, obviously you are not getting your moneys worth. so cancel your sub and never look back. And that is how easy it was to fix that problem
    You see, I have been a blizzard fan my whole life so when I see something I'd rather talk about it and hope it changes than just cut and run like you all seem to be a fan of. For your information at the moment I don't have an active sub mostly for these reasons, however this is still a game that I enjoyed from my childhood now into my mid twenties.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Nah dude, Blizzard has BILLIONS of dollars. They don't need people like us. They can just like, you know, put a personal ad in the newspaper and pay people to log onto computers to do the testing for them. Instead they're taking advantage of us schmucks by asking us to test whether their shit works before they release it to... uh.............. us. Those DICKS!
    Thank you! You acknowledged that instead of using their own resources they just rely on us for it! So how difficult would it be for something even minor in game for our efforts to help them create an exceptional game.

  3. #23
    Stood in the Fire Rickarus's Avatar
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    What personal data are we giving them by logging on and just being on the server to stress test them? All they are asking people to give is a half hour of their time to make sure the servers will be stable when the prepatch hits (and even more so when the expansion launches) and everyone inevitably logs on and goes to the same place and puts huge amounts of stress on their servers.

    Would you rather them NOT stress test their servers? I can guarantee if they didn't you'd be on here ranting about how terrible they are for their server instability.

    Like sure, is it annoying that they haven't confirmed the prepatch release date (and that it wasn't today so we could have had it for 4 weeks like every other prepatch)? Of course, but that doesn't mean blizzard is taking advantage of us by asking people to help make sure the actual launch of the prepatch is as stable as they can, especially after the Khadgar server merge disaster they just had.

    As for the PTR/Beta system in general, this is how basically every game dev making MMOs or other similarly massive games has worked for basically forever. It is almost impossible for a traditional game testing model to work in games this massive with so many variables and so many things to do. Allowing players to get their hands on things early and test things gives so much more useful information than traditional game testers ever could, simply due to volume and variety of players.

    Most of the people who put real effort into the beta and PTR processes WANT to do so. They go out of their way to test things to hopefully make sure that the game is better than it would be without them, whether they see that explicitly or not. They're not looking for any type of reward beyond the game being better designed, or less buggy, or more fun, or better balanced, etc.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Trialle View Post
    Thank you! You acknowledged that instead of using their own resources they just rely on us for it! So how difficult would it be for something even minor in game for our efforts to help them create an exceptional game.
    They are using their own resources. That just happens to include the playerbase. Doing such a test with paid testers isn't very realistic anyway, and wouldn't be remotely economical.

    You're not being taken advantage of anyway. The testing is in your interest, so if you participate it is a mutually beneficial activity. If you don't, then you're the one taking advantage of others with no compensation.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Trialle View Post
    Thank you! You acknowledged that instead of using their own resources they just rely on us for it! So how difficult would it be for something even minor in game for our efforts to help them create an exceptional game.
    Out of curiosity, do you also write Costco strongly worded letters about cookie companies using free labor from their customers in the form of consuming samples?

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Trialle View Post
    I do apologize if this comes off as a bit of a rant but I do want to hear what you guys have to say I will try and keep it pretty level though.

    As the most recent blue post is blizzard seeking our assistance in order to test their systems I think we should reflect on why we should or shouldn't give them FREE assistance.

    I'm going to start off with; In no way shape or form am I willing to give them free help when I consistently feel used by them as an organization. They have been anything but transparent with shadow lands as of now, i mean WE DO NOT EVEN HAVE A PREPATCH DATE. It truly blows my mind that a company will come to the forums to request assistance despite having fed us lies about shadow lands from start to finish, the most glaring in this instance being that they said the SL prepatch was going to be a long one, now we are set for this to be the shortest to date.

    On top of this, I do not understand (and really would like some insight from the people who have done this) why we would want to do it another example being. When they asked us for class feedback from the beta and the people who poured countless hours into play testing every aspect of their class was left waiting up to 4 months on a response. These wearnt just Class bad fix numbers responses either, they're where abilities and passives not even registering, sadly though it seems a lot of the bugs and class issues are still rampant effectively wasting all of those peoples time.

    Why is it that we cannot at least receive something in game for effectively doing blizzards job for them by supplying them with a surplus of needed info with a days notice. The lack of communication is severely lacking if just out right non existent, as of now I do not intend on logging into the PTR tomorrow.

    EDIT #1: This is a key point in why I think we shouldn't and I need to make it clear up here. Your information as a consumer is worth far more than your $15 a month to these companies. Whenever you help them knowingly or unknowingly you are putting them into a better position at no cost to create a new product and turn around to sell it to you at full price. Being the person who helps in the betas, or the stress tests, or whatever free work you do for blizzard should be incentivized for you. You are making them money, thats the cut and dry of it, every bit of data you give them for free helps them make more money. The amount in which they rely on us for free information I find really disgusting, I know some will call me entitled by real world example here:

    -As a teen I used to go focus groups to "test" and give feed back on products from soda to toys, and it would only pay me like 40 bucks for the 2-3 hours i was there but it was enough for me to want to do it. All blizzard does is say "thanks for the help" in a forum post and goes dark on us for another month or two.
    Here's your dry response.
    They're trying to conduct a stress test, which is to cram as many players onto the realms as possible so as to push the limits of their servers. This was done for the recent AQ event in Classic, same is being done here. This is a practical, close-to-real-world test to simulate live traffic. Sure, Blizzard can create tons and tons of bots with simulated connections with different pings, upload and download speeds, but that's a pittance compared to tens of thousands of unique, real world connections and player reporting.
    Somewhere out there is a tweet thread that describes how QA works, basically if a few hundred QA testers worked non stop for five years at testing, that gets dwarfed in the first hour by hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of players.
    This has nothing to do with whether you feel like you're giving them free help, or whether we feel privileged to help, if they owe us without a prepatch date, etc. It's a request to help test, one that you're free to decline.
    It's not a civic duty. It's not personal. Don't make it personal.

  7. #27
    Old God Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trialle View Post
    Because me and the moderator talked in private messages and he said if I reword it for more of a discussion and less like a rant it will pass. This is my new version.
    Still reads like a whiny rant, FYI.
    My greatest fear is that one day, my MMO-Champion ignore list will run out of space.

  8. #28
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    The purpose of Beta testing with a far larger testing pool than Blizzard could ever manage internally (and across a far wider array of different hardware configs than humanly manageable) is to ultimately produce a better game for the playerbase. It is, in that sense, a service to the playerbase that we directly benefit from when playing the game, and Beta tester feedback is an invaluable part of that process. If you personally feel taken advantage of, then I would suggest you simply don't donate your time or sign-up for the Beta process, as it is completely optional on your part to begin with.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  9. #29
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    I find it curious that you are willing enough to do something but not aware enough beforehand to ensure you get rewarded for doing it. Put another way, you did work for someone without arranging fair payment before doing said work.

    The problem isn't on Blizzard's side in this deal since they do not stand up their PTRs and open them up to subscribes maliciously. No one is required to join the PTRs. Your argument simply does not hold up. If you can't arrange to receive payment for your efforts or knowledge when you think you should receive payment, then don't take on the deal in the first place.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    ...Becuase other big companies simply don't heed feedback on a level Blizzard does and or has. Why the fuck someone want to be paid for "feedback" Are they high on their own ego?
    That, but also paid feedback is very easily influenced. "Oh negative opinion? No reward for you!" "Oh you liked our stuff? Here's your reward!" Public and open testing allows for all types of feedback, they may not act on it, but we can see it and make our own judgment on how it's handled.

  11. #31
    Lend me your ear-... Erhm, eyes for a bit.

    The ptr of 8.3, they implemented scaling leveling zones. They begged us to test them, but nobody really wanted to, because it was leveling. That alone, was kinda enough feedback for them, to realize that it's simply not enough. And in what terrible state leveling was. It's not like we're free testing dummies. We test, whats fun to us, and tell them how to improve on it. Because, we as a community, want a fun game. Thats our reward. If blizz fails, you're only hurting yourself, because then you won't get a great game either.
    Edit: And the post above me put it nicely too. People who are paid for it, will say anything, if it's a mass-test. While we want a good game. It's our enjoyment at stake. /Edit


    Geez.

    We finally get a rather close to the community held development, which we haven't seen since MoP, and now this? Who else but the community can tell them whats good or bad?
    Last edited by LordTakeo; 2020-09-30 at 02:12 AM.

  12. #32
    Someone is REALLY angry...about a video game. Interesting.

  13. #33
    The Patient october breeze's Avatar
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    I don't understand the bashing OP is receiving here. it seems Blizz not only have free testers, but also have free lawyers!

    Players are honest with Blizzard. Blizzard is not. Players provide feedback hoping to get a "FUN" game, but Blizzard takes the feedback, only to abuse it to make more money. "FUN" is not their priority.
    See, the purpose here is different. The mistrust between Blizz and players gap is widening. So, some people will be like OP, saying why I should provide Blizz free testing service, while all they have in mind is to leech from their addicts.

    Ye ye, Blizz is a company and its purpose is to make money. We all know the cliché response. But there is a difference between Activision Blizzard - who fires 800 people and give CEO a 40 million bonus - and FF Hironobu Sakaguchi, who reduced his personal payment to keep the game alive. For the later, I will gladly provide free testing.

  14. #34
    Immortal Nnyco's Avatar
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    Stopped reading after you mentioned "NO PREPATCH DATE". If you dont wanna help dont do it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Crabs have been removed from the game... because if I see another one I’m just going to totally lose it. *sobbing* I’m sorry, I just can’t right now... I just... OK just give me a minute, I’ll be OK..

  15. #35
    how someone takes advantage of you by just asking? you can just not do it and thats it.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    So help me understand OP. You're angry at Blizzard because they do public PTR and beta tests? Like they've been doing for how many years?
    He does have a point thou. Blizzard doesn't seem to have their own internal beta testers. Look at other gaming companies, they do their own beta testing.
    Sure, you might find few other games who also provides beta keys, but the most popular used to be stress test to see how much their servers could take before crashing.

    Whether it is good or bad, Im not judging on that. But Blizzard sure gets a hell of a deal. Give out betas, no need to hire testers, make sure to invite thoose who can stream or upload youtube videos for advertisement. All of this, without spending from their own pockets.

  17. #37
    Brewmaster khazmodan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shonist View Post
    how someone takes advantage of you by just asking? you can just not do it and thats it.
    Correct, I am usually critical of Blizzard nowadays but this is just a free PTR that you can play or go back to retail or Classic. If you were paying extra to play on the beta then I could see a problem, but for free without any effect on your other options to play the game means more choices for the same money and you can get prepared for the expansion if you want too.

  18. #38
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restors View Post
    He does have a point thou. Blizzard doesn't seem to have their own internal beta testers. Look at other gaming companies, they do their own beta testing.
    Sure, you might find few other games who also provides beta keys, but the most popular used to be stress test to see how much their servers could take before crashing.

    Whether it is good or bad, Im not judging on that. But Blizzard sure gets a hell of a deal. Give out betas, no need to hire testers, make sure to invite thoose who can stream or upload youtube videos for advertisement. All of this, without spending from their own pockets.
    ...Of course they have their internal beta testers...clearly but its not nearly enough for the massive public.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance

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  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by october breeze View Post
    Ye ye, Blizz is a company and its purpose is to make money. We all know the cliché response. But there is a difference between Activision Blizzard - who fires 800 people and give CEO a 40 million bonus - and FF Hironobu Sakaguchi, who reduced his personal payment to keep the game alive. For the later, I will gladly provide free testing.
    You do realize you're rationalizing your preference for one large, faceless, homogenized corporate brand over another large, faceless, homogenized corporate brand, right?

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Trialle View Post
    I do apologize if this comes off as a bit of a rant but I do want to hear what you guys have to say I will try and keep it pretty level though.

    As the most recent blue post is blizzard seeking our assistance in order to test their systems I think we should reflect on why we should or shouldn't give them FREE assistance.

    I'm going to start off with; In no way shape or form am I willing to give them free help when I consistently feel used by them as an organization. They have been anything but transparent with shadow lands as of now, i mean WE DO NOT EVEN HAVE A PREPATCH DATE. It truly blows my mind that a company will come to the forums to request assistance despite having fed us lies about shadow lands from start to finish, the most glaring in this instance being that they said the SL prepatch was going to be a long one, now we are set for this to be the shortest to date.

    On top of this, I do not understand (and really would like some insight from the people who have done this) why we would want to do it another example being. When they asked us for class feedback from the beta and the people who poured countless hours into play testing every aspect of their class was left waiting up to 4 months on a response. These wearnt just Class bad fix numbers responses either, they're where abilities and passives not even registering, sadly though it seems a lot of the bugs and class issues are still rampant effectively wasting all of those peoples time.

    Why is it that we cannot at least receive something in game for effectively doing blizzards job for them by supplying them with a surplus of needed info with a days notice. The lack of communication is severely lacking if just out right non existent, as of now I do not intend on logging into the PTR tomorrow.

    EDIT #1: This is a key point in why I think we shouldn't and I need to make it clear up here. Your information as a consumer is worth far more than your $15 a month to these companies. Whenever you help them knowingly or unknowingly you are putting them into a better position at no cost to create a new product and turn around to sell it to you at full price. Being the person who helps in the betas, or the stress tests, or whatever free work you do for blizzard should be incentivized for you. You are making them money, thats the cut and dry of it, every bit of data you give them for free helps them make more money. The amount in which they rely on us for free information I find really disgusting, I know some will call me entitled by real world example here:

    -As a teen I used to go focus groups to "test" and give feed back on products from soda to toys, and it would only pay me like 40 bucks for the 2-3 hours i was there but it was enough for me to want to do it. All blizzard does is say "thanks for the help" in a forum post and goes dark on us for another month or two.
    Blizzard owes you nothing including providing you any form of communication about their upcoming game. They made a mistake years ago by opening the flood gates now people like you think they owe it to you. Your not required to play the beta it is your choice and if you do not want to play the beta or PTR then don't, as I said that is your choice. As a Teen, you were told that you would be paid for the Focus group that is not the same as a Beta test but it is clear your post comes from someone who feels entitled. In the words of the Great Jack White

    "I guess nobody on earth is entitled Not mothers, not children, not kings Not a one single person on God's golden shore Is entitled to one single thing We don't deserve a single damn thing"

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