Blizzard takes advantage of us way too much.

[Kauko]

Then don't... and hope that WOD fiasco wont happen again...

[Moozart]

I do apologize if this comes off as a bit of a rant but I do want to hear what you guys have to say I will try and keep it pretty level though.

As the most recent blue post is blizzard seeking our assistance in order to test their systems I think we should reflect on why we should or shouldn't give them FREE assistance.

I'm going to start off with; In no way shape or form am I willing to give them free help when I consistently feel used by them as an organization. They have been anything but transparent with shadow lands as of now, i mean WE DO NOT EVEN HAVE A PREPATCH DATE. It truly blows my mind that a company will come to the forums to request assistance despite having fed us lies about shadow lands from start to finish, the most glaring in this instance being that they said the SL prepatch was going to be a long one, now we are set for this to be the shortest to date.

On top of this, I do not understand (and really would like some insight from the people who have done this) why we would want to do it another example being. When they asked us for class feedback from the beta and the people who poured countless hours into play testing every aspect of their class was left waiting up to 4 months on a response. These wearnt just Class bad fix numbers responses either, they're where abilities and passives not even registering, sadly though it seems a lot of the bugs and class issues are still rampant effectively wasting all of those peoples time.

Why is it that we cannot at least receive something in game for effectively doing blizzards job for them by supplying them with a surplus of needed info with a days notice. The lack of communication is severely lacking if just out right non existent, as of now I do not intend on logging into the PTR tomorrow.

EDIT #1: This is a key point in why I think we shouldn't and I need to make it clear up here. Your information as a consumer is worth far more than your $15 a month to these companies. Whenever you help them knowingly or unknowingly you are putting them into a better position at no cost to create a new product and turn around to sell it to you at full price. Being the person who helps in the betas, or the stress tests, or whatever free work you do for blizzard should be incentivized for you. You are making them money, thats the cut and dry of it, every bit of data you give them for free helps them make more money. The amount in which they rely on us for free information I find really disgusting, I know some will call me entitled by real world example here:

-As a teen I used to go focus groups to "test" and give feed back on products from soda to toys, and it would only pay me like 40 bucks for the 2-3 hours i was there but it was enough for me to want to do it. All blizzard does is say "thanks for the help" in a forum post and goes dark on us for another month or two.

I think a majority of the player base, this thread is some smaller evidence of that, would rather them put that time and focus into bettering other parts of the game. Player housing is for the most part useless.

[Raelbo]

A lot of the replies to this thread are concerning. People have actual jobs doing the testing for other companies that Blizzard want players to do for free.

Now, I don't blame Blizzard for doing this, there's a bunch of willing people happy to do a job they would usually pay for, for free. Of course they're going to take advantage of that. I also get why people are happy to do it for free. They get to preview content and help shape it into something (hopefully) better than it was.

What concerns me is that people are calling the OP entitled for wanting something in return for services rendered. Go and tell someone employed as a QA tester that they won't be getting paid and that them expecting pay for doing their job is them being entitled, see how quickly they quit and leave. So why is OP wanting the same standards any different? Because he wasn't hired as a QA tester? Then why should companies expect them to do that work if it's not their job?

Again, I get both sides of it and I'm not complaining that Blizzard do it and I understand why other people will do it (as they want to see content, help improve the game etc.), I'm just amazed at how little people value their time and effort that they think wanting some compensation for using it to help someone else out is entitlement. Personally I think everyone should be compensated if they do put in some effort, especially in beta's, of reporting bugs and giving good feedback. All the bugs reported and feedback given are collated and tracked, so they could easily see who is really putting in the effort. Wouldn't be hard for them to go "Ok, this person reported 10 bugs that were fixed and gave some really good feedback" then give them a title in game or something simple.

People should be rewarded for their time and effort. It's as simple as that.

Blizzard has a QA team who they pay to test their games. Using players for Beta testing is something different.

If you want to be paid for testing games, then go apply for a job at Blizzard. But then it's a job and there are certain expectations that you have to live up to. Beta testing is something different. You do it for fun, and get be part of something you're passionate about. And that's not your cup of tea, very simply, don't do it. No one is forcing or coercing you.

[Dire]

Tldr

stfu

[Thenadrys]

They're not really taking advantage of you when you can stop at any time. Taking advantage implies they have unfair leverage. MMORPGs are designed to be addictive, sure, but not to that degree

[LostLocket]

Giving out rewards for beta/alpha is a terrible idea at least doing so publicly. They already give out a type of reward by letting quality testers get in early usually after the media invite wave.

The problem that would arise is very few people know how to give good feedback and you would see people rage about someone playing for a few hours giving valued feedback thanks while the one playing for hundred of hours didn't really provide anything.

[MatPandaZ]

To me this is more of a symbiotic relationship. Sure, Blizzard is getting value out Beta Testers, but at the same time those Beta Testers are also getting something out of the deal. That's why I don't believe there is a problem here.

In fact I would argue that it's probably a good thing that the people doing the Beta testing aren't compensated for their efforts because that would, IMO, likely attract the kind of people who you don't really want there.

100% this. People aren't being put out in the slightest by beta testing. People want to. The fact that there are upwards of 5k people on twitch streams hoping for a beta key shows that people *really* want to play beta. They get to play beta, Blizzard gets their feedback. If you don't want to play beta.... Don't.

Its like complaining the local baker gave you free cakes to try in exchange for feedback on those cakes. That's not taking advantage of anyone. If anything you are taking advantage of them as an opinion vs hard work, opinion is the easy bit.

The alternative is that Blizzard don't bother stress testing because its not economically viable to pay hundreds of thousands of testers. Its cheaper for them to wait and see, and fix stuff if the servers go down. Which results in a worse player experience.

[Steelcryo]

Blizzard has a QA team who they pay to test their games. Using players for Beta testing is something different.

If you want to be paid for testing games, then go apply for a job at Blizzard. But then it's a job and there are certain expectations that you have to live up to. Beta testing is something different. You do it for fun, and get be part of something you're passionate about. And that's not your cup of tea, very simply, don't do it. No one is forcing or coercing you.

You're fundamentally misunderstanding what is happening here. Blizzard have internal testers for QA who are paid. The open Beta is purely voluntary for people who want to participate because they want to feel involved in the development process or a sneak peak at the upcoming content. No-one should be in the OP's position of feeling like they are doing a job but not getting paid, if that's how you feel then don't go into the beta. If you want to participate in beta testing and get rewarded for it then apply to a company or agency that needs beta-testers. With WoW betas participation is its own reward, and if you don't feel that's enough then don't participate.

Again, I wasn't saying people shouldn't do it. I was simply pointing out that calling OP entitled is incorrect. As I said, for many seeing the content and helping shape the game is reward enough, but for others, they expect more for their time and effort, which is fair. Doesn't mean Blizzard have to compensate them, since as you both said, it's entirely voluntary and no-one is being forced. But wanting more for your time is a perfectly valid stance to have.

[Super Kami Dende]

The stress test is the most recent thing, thats also why I included how the beta testers where treated for their efforts. They are requesting that we take time out of our normal day and play schedule for them, if that doesnt sound like something that should come with incentive im preaching to the choir here.

Your incentive is that you get to test the game. Your choices are Test the game or don't test the game.

There's literally nothing forcing you to do either of those options.

[Dhrizzle]

I don't remember a single beta where Blizz didn't say thank you to the participants in a post afterwards.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ank-you/187518
https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...changes/142101
https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...changes/142110
https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...erience/142119
https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...am-cest/187425

It took me 2 minutes to find 5 posts, where they thank us for feedback and/or participation. I dont know what you are talking about. In every interview with a content creator blizzard employees thank us for our important and valuable feedback.

Your post is like complaining about running into stuff with your eyes closed.

I think I wasn't clear enough, what I meant with my post is that Blizzard definitely do thank beta participants, I was disagreeing with the person I quoted.

- - - Updated - - -

They could differentiate between people who played the beta just for fun and the people that actually put in tons of hours doing tedious testing to find bugs. Work that would have costed Blizzard a lot of money if they had to pay for it. In a civilized world I think it would be nice of Blizzard to show the real tester an extra gesture of gratitude. That’s normally how the society works. But I guess there are just too many anti-social people on this forum who never leave their basements and don’t know how normal people interact with each other. When you ask for help and get help it’s very common to show some gratitude. We don’t just say “well no one forced you to help me so suck it!”. But basement-Andys somehow thinks that it’s common business practice to lack manners.

Normal people don't interact by sending out mass invited to thousands of strangers to play the game they're developing so your point seems a bit moot...

Anyway what do you expect Blizz to say "Big thanks to everyone for their testing and feedback, and an even bigger thanks to those who spent more time testing and feeding back, and the biggest thanks to the person who did the most?"

- - - Updated - - -

Again, I wasn't saying people shouldn't do it. I was simply pointing out that calling OP entitled is incorrect. As I said, for many seeing the content and helping shape the game is reward enough, but for others, they expect more for their time and effort, which is fair. Doesn't mean Blizzard have to compensate them, since as you both said, it's entirely voluntary and no-one is being forced. But wanting more for your time is a perfectly valid stance to have.

It's pretty much the definition of entitled. At no point was there any suggestion that beta testing would come with a reward. At no point did Blizzard force or coerce people to participate in the beta tests, but the OP comes along having taken part feeling they should be given a special reward for participating.

[VinceVega]

Is it just me or does the whining in these forums get worse each expansion... seriously.

We have a thread about how PvE players are apparantly forced to play PvP for something that is intended for PvP, players pissed at leavers in Mythic+ pugs, the thread about Warlocks not being extremly op anymore, the whole housing thing, every few days a thread where people demand to be able to play everthing solo... in a freaking MMO, this thread... which does not make any sense at all.

Beta players get to play the game early... which they want. And the stress test they try to make fun by for example the massive boss spawn in classic wows stress test. And it is something you simply can't do just with your inhouse testers. They don't need to do it. They can work with estimates. But they don't. Which is good for us a s we profit from this. Also again: THEY DON'T FORCE YOU! And you don't miss out in anything.

[unbound]

Then dont. Blizzard owes you nothing to test their products. Some people are happy to do so. Some aren't. If you see no benefit then that is fine. What isn't fine is thinking you are entitled to a reward in testing it.

And Blizz thanks you for your loyal support of their exploitive practices. Just as all major corporations do. They very much rely on fans who will rationalize any and all problems as being with disloyal fans.

Now is an opportunity to start thinking through what is going on here. Why is Blizz "offering" to let you test? Out of the kindness of their hearts? (If you think this, please DM me as I have some wonderful bridges for sale around the US)

No, Blizz "offers" this for two major reasons. It lets them test a product without having to hire more people, which means more profits and, thus, more bonuses for senior management. The other reason is that it becomes a hype / advertising tool.

So, while you may enjoy being unpaid labor, realize that other people understand that it is a scam and are appropriately pushing back on it.

[Claymore]

Level headedness? i wouldnt really call it that...

Also "They're only looking for priase" what in your god danmed mind at you talking about?
Ion and many others commonly go to the most fricken critical of the community asking for help, and hold Q&A's with such aswell, did you skip the ENTIREITY of the Preach interview where he just told him blizzard were wrong?

Hmm, fair enough, I think I chose my words poorly.

I think what I SHOULD have said is maybe... I think "feedback" for Blizzard, just means "reporting bugs". Or maybe when presented with constructive feedback, they sort of wait to see "which side has more supporters", rather than evaluating feedback on an individual basis.

I mean, it was pretty recently that Azerite powers were a complete shitshow. People had pointed out many of the issues when the system was first announced, and then on beta, but Blizzard seemed set on implementing it.

That is absolutely Blizzard's purgative -- and certainly as others have said, Blizzard employs professional designers who are better at their jobs than fans would be -- but I also think it's a bit dishonest to say "we're listening/gathering feedback", when they're just... not.

Now having said that, I've admittedly been pretty out-of-the-loop this last expansion. It is the first expansion I specifically *quit* playing (I stopped during WoD and much of Legion, but that was simply because of RL circumstances). It also has the disadvantage of coming right off of Legion, which although flawed I considered some of Blizzard's best work, particularly on Lore and immersion. So I've probably missed more info than even I realized, such at that interview you watch (I primarily get my info from MMO-Champ's front page, but have increasingly been switching over to Wowhead for datamining).

All in all... I would probably agree, the community is overly harsh towards Blizzard, myself included (in fact, I am admittedly probably more guilty than many others). It's definitely frustrating to see what often seems like a disparity between the game fans are asking for, and the game Devs want to give us.

[Dhrizzle]

And Blizz thanks you for your loyal support of their exploitive practices. Just as all major corporations do. They very much rely on fans who will rationalize any and all problems as being with disloyal fans.

Now is an opportunity to start thinking through what is going on here. Why is Blizz "offering" to let you test? Out of the kindness of their hearts? (If you think this, please DM me as I have some wonderful bridges for sale around the US)

No, Blizz "offers" this for two major reasons. It lets them test a product without having to hire more people, which means more profits and, thus, more bonuses for senior management. The other reason is that it becomes a hype / advertising tool.

So, while you may enjoy being unpaid labor, realize that other people understand that it is a scam and are appropriately pushing back on it.

It's not a scam, stop pretending you're being smart by noticing a shady deal everyone else missed. It isn't a secret that Blizz get benefits from a large pool of beta testers but some people are more than happy to take part, either because they're interested in video games and seeing how they're made or they just want to see the content before it releases.

[Sansnom]

Lol do you not know the millions of dollars companies put into trying to get peoples feedback? The people are what make you money, if the people dont give feedback your product sucks, if your product sucks you dont make money. So why should the people helping you make a better product then only receive your next product at a premium price when their time and information helped you perfect it for profit.

Maybe. But you do know feedback is that. Feedback. Tell them what you think. You seem to be angry that they did not response in the way you wanted regarding your feedback. Yours is just one of many they received. They do not have to respond to you personally nor address your specific issue.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Sounds like a you problem rather than an "us" problem, frankly.

I'm not taken advantage of in any shape or form. I've been an adult for 16 years at this point so whining about something like this would be highly sad.

I tested some things in Beta, reported bugs/gave feedback, then I didn't touch Beta again. Why play it like the actual game when it isn't? I'll leave that to those making a job out of playing the game.

[LordVargK]

Remember the last time old wow devs made an MMO?

You mean Rend?

looked pretty good, but was never marketed right.

[unlockedz]

i don't get it. do they put a gun to your head? do they threaten your life in some way?
beta is optional, you entering the game is optional...nobody gives a flying fuck if you do it or not as there are many many more that applied for beta and didn't receive it.
i'd understand trying to give incentives if everyone was like me and cba but that's not the case.

[FelPlague]

You mean Rend?

looked pretty good, but was never marketed right.

OOOOOF
literally came out just over a year ago, and i thought wildstar not making it to 5 years was bad.

[therealbowser]

Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't. You have to choose for yourself whether you want to test new content. Honestly, most people on betas and PTRs are there to see new content, not to help the game smooth out bugs. I genuinely hope Blizzard actually hires professional bug testers in addition to that, and makes an effort to bring back players who report bugs, but the vast majority of people on these things help with absolutely nothing except by complete coincidence, if and when they even happen to feel like reporting.

So, in exchange for (theoretically) being willing to report bugs, Blizzard gives access to new content before it's released. If you feel this isn't a fair trade, then opt out of the betas/etc and don't help. I never play too much on betas (to avoid spoiling the content later) but I make an effort to report bugs. You have to decide for yourself what is or isn't the right choice.