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  1. #61
    Pandaren Monk bloodwulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    Yes, There is no reason for any Pure DPS spec to ever be out DPS'ed by a Hybrid. Otherwise their reason for even existing is null and void.
    I'm glad even blizzard disagrees with you when they stated they removed the "hybrid tax". Most players play a spec, not a class. I know so many players that have access to tank specs, but i'd never want them to tank. The specs exist because people want that archetype in the game. If suddenly a warrior or a demon hunter was top dps, people won't just get rid of their rogues. They all have a place. People play what they like, and if as a Lock a Spriest or Elemental Shaman parses higher than me, it doesn't make me dislike my class.
    We live in an era of "me versus them", an era where something is done that you don't like means you are personally attacked. People whine too much.
    Let us play video games and be happy.

  2. #62
    Do any of these changes matter? The covenant effects on overall dps after the soul drain nerf are not big. Its much more about conduits. Overall specc performance is unlikely to change much from this.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Amariw View Post
    Do any of these changes matter? The covenant effects on overall dps after the soul drain nerf are not big. Its much more about conduits. Overall specc performance is unlikely to change much from this.
    From what I have seen it kinda hurts some of different builds and stuff but overall locks for the most part still look to be good.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Amariw View Post
    Do any of these changes matter? The covenant effects on overall dps after the soul drain nerf are not big. Its much more about conduits. Overall specc performance is unlikely to change much from this.
    The venthyr nerf makes the ability not worth casting outside of very specific use cases.

  5. #65
    Elemental Lord GreenJesus's Avatar
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    The "Hybrid" term is pointless since you can only be 1 spec at a time and there isn't any ability to dip into other specs talent trees like before. Demon hunters might as well be a hybrid considering they can heal (leech) and get 100% dodge while just doing their main rotation. Classes have been muddied for so long there is no such thing as a "pure" either.

    Should rogues be considered a hybrid considering they have crimson vial and recuperate to heal themselves?
    Last edited by GreenJesus; 2020-10-01 at 07:22 PM.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Shandalar View Post
    Pretty natural. Affliction and Destro are doing more damage than healers and thats unacceptable. With these changes I think they are still over the healers, I expect they fix this soon.
    Upboated.

    And yeah, thank god I didn't pre-order or bought SL yet, I am going to wait how warlocks will be after release or even after the first raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vongimi View Post
    God yeah, being only in the top 5 for the entire expansion is so crap. It should be top 1! Blizz plz
    Affliction was shit in M+ for the whole 2+ years of BfA, tell me more.

  7. #67
    shadowlands delayed, we have more time to another big nerf

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    hahaha what?? You either didn't play Warlock, or just played it badly if you think they were underpowered in Wrath.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yeah no. That has always been a ridiculous reason for wanting other DPS specs of other classes to be "worse" just because "MUH HYBRID!".

    Many People play those classes specifically for the DPS spec.
    Sorry, but that's you. Actually I topped charts in my guild. However I did look it up and I remembered it slightly wrong. Affliction only beat 2 class and 1 was priest and BARELY. Demo was relatively tied with enh with minimal movement, but otherwise was beaten by it and destruction was only marginally better than 5 individual specs that all had other specs that were in the top 6. So, no you got presented with facts. Warlocks were pretty much the worst in terms of ICC short of shamans which I already mentioned in a later post.

  9. #69
    Bloodsail Admiral Kalador's Avatar
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    Those nerf are so bizarre,

    Covenant ability to be a success need to be impactful, but they are doing this weird balancing were they are nerfing them to the point were they just don't matter anymore, I guess if all 4 choice are shit then they are balance but it doesn't scream fun to have a button you press every 30sec/1min that doesn't do much.

    The shit is no matter what there will be a best choice so fucking embrace it and make them feel cool. Not hit like a fucking wet noodle.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Lulbalance View Post
    Anyone who thinks hybrids should ever be in the top 5 is a degenerate. So yes, we should be at or near the top - all the time.
    this game hasn't had "hybrids" in like 10 years

  11. #71
    Bloodsail Admiral Uzkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalador View Post
    Those nerf are so bizarre,

    Covenant ability to be a success need to be impactful, but they are doing this weird balancing were they are nerfing them to the point were they just don't matter anymore, I guess if all 4 choice are shit then they are balance but it doesn't scream fun to have a button you press every 30sec/1min that doesn't do much.

    The shit is no matter what there will be a best choice so fucking embrace it and make them feel cool. Not hit like a fucking wet noodle.
    Indeed. At the current state, Blizz should just remove the warlock covenant damage abilities and only leave the utility ones.

    Currently the warlock covenant damage abilities are not nearly impactful enough to feel satisfying or fun to press; they basically only add clutter to rotations.

  12. #72
    But should the covenants being that impactful? Or dmg should be all we need and the covenants should just add a little flavour to them.

  13. #73
    I’m playing beta and unless I’m mistaken I feel pretty powerful and I am not using a live character. I used a template. I’m still only levelling as I just got access, so I’m not sure of end game yet but I feel good and so have other people in the testing channel on beta *shrug*

  14. #74
    Make it so that all the pure DPS classes have less utility than the hybrid classes, then I'd agree with pure dps being slightly ahead of hybrids. I loved playing retri in TBC. I kept Judgements up which helped tremendously, while being slightly less DPS than the DPS classes, while able to use blessings and off heal when needed.. Perfect design.

    Now most classes can self-mitigate, self heal and use raid cooldowns, which makes hybrids a thing of the past.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Algorath View Post
    Make it so that all the pure DPS classes have less utility than the hybrid classes, then I'd agree with pure dps being slightly ahead of hybrids. I loved playing retri in TBC. I kept Judgements up which helped tremendously, while being slightly less DPS than the DPS classes, while able to use blessings and off heal when needed.. Perfect design.

    Now most classes can self-mitigate, self heal and use raid cooldowns, which makes hybrids a thing of the past.
    The reason why pure dps classes are often ahead is because they have 3 options to choose. They have a statistical advantage of have 3 chances to get it right. The trade off should not be utility. The trade off is that they are not able to tank or heal. That’s it.

    People like to complain about a specific spec like Ret Pala and compare it to a whole class like Rogue. But that’s not a fair comparison. You have to compare specs with specs and for example subtlety rogue has been brokenly bad for the whole of BFA. So if you say Ret was bad then I just say well Subtlety was worse. Don’t compare a single spec to a whole class.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    The reason why pure dps classes are often ahead is because they have 3 options to choose. They have a statistical advantage of have 3 chances to get it right. The trade off should not be utility. The trade off is that they are not able to tank or heal. That’s it.

    People like to complain about a specific spec like Ret Pala and compare it to a whole class like Rogue. But that’s not a fair comparison. You have to compare specs with specs and for example subtlety rogue has been brokenly bad for the whole of BFA. So if you say Ret was bad then I just say well Subtlety was worse. Don’t compare a single spec to a whole class.
    So it's all a roll of the dice, where the lucky spec wins and that is good design in your opinion? "Yeah rogues have a 3:36 chance of being good, while a paladin has a 1:36 chance in being good. That's the difference between hybrids and pure DPS classes. Imo that sounds silly as hell! As I stated, I wouldn't mind pure dps classes having the edge.. Or even having specs that excel in certain situations, making it easier for them to come out on top in each scenario. (Think something along the lines of Destro = God of single target, Demo = God of AoE and Affli = Good at both, but with a bit more survivability and utility. While retri paladin is decent at all three, not amazing, but also has the ability to carry the weight of healing or mitigation in spicy moments.) THAT imo is good design. Not just a raffle where pure dps classes get 3 shots at the jackpot and hybrids have one/two.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Algorath View Post
    So it's all a roll of the dice, where the lucky spec wins and that is good design in your opinion? "Yeah rogues have a 3:36 chance of being good, while a paladin has a 1:36 chance in being good. That's the difference between hybrids and pure DPS classes. Imo that sounds silly as hell! As I stated, I wouldn't mind pure dps classes having the edge.. Or even having specs that excel in certain situations, making it easier for them to come out on top in each scenario. (Think something along the lines of Destro = God of single target, Demo = God of AoE and Affli = Good at both, but with a bit more survivability and utility. While retri paladin is decent at all three, not amazing, but also has the ability to carry the weight of healing or mitigation in spicy moments.) THAT imo is good design. Not just a raffle where pure dps classes get 3 shots at the jackpot and hybrids have one/two.
    Hmm... but mate I'm just telling you how it is. Blizzard is shit a balancing. That's just how it is. The state of a spec is completely hit and miss. So a class that have 3 dps spec will have a higher chance of one of them being good than a class with only 1 dps spec. It's statistics. Now you may call that silly, but often the balancing of Blizzard is very random. Your example is very idealistic and it would require Blizzard to actually be in control of balancing. But they are not. So you just have to roll the dice and hope for the best. And if you can roll 3 dies your chances are just better.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Lulbalance View Post
    Anyone who thinks hybrids should ever be in the top 5 is a degenerate. So yes, we should be at or near the top - all the time.
    Haha damn I love those comments, "you are a hybrid you should be last on dps" You are not really up to date, are you?

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Hmm... but mate I'm just telling you how it is. Blizzard is shit a balancing. That's just how it is. The state of a spec is completely hit and miss. So a class that have 3 dps spec will have a higher chance of one of them being good than a class with only 1 dps spec. It's statistics. Now you may call that silly, but often the balancing of Blizzard is very random. Your example is very idealistic and it would require Blizzard to actually be in control of balancing. But they are not. So you just have to roll the dice and hope for the best. And if you can roll 3 dies your chances are just better.
    Yeah I agree in practice, it is exactly as you say Sadly

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    The "Hybrid" term is pointless since you can only be 1 spec at a time and there isn't any ability to dip into other specs talent trees like before. Demon hunters might as well be a hybrid considering they can heal (leech) and get 100% dodge while just doing their main rotation. Classes have been muddied for so long there is no such thing as a "pure" either.

    Should rogues be considered a hybrid considering they have crimson vial and recuperate to heal themselves?
    The dodge is gone from their rotation fyi. Completely removed the dodge from blade dance.

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