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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    lol@you thinking that YOUR post is the reason they delayed SL.
    Everyone on the boards believes they're the most important person.

    I'm of a mind that the delay is because of the backlash to the gimmicky covenant system, and the fact that they were trying to build an entire expansion around a system that many made clear they didn't want. I don't expect the initial importance of covenants to change much, but it wouldn't surprise me if within a patch they were irrelevant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sezh View Post
    Nothing should, or will for that matter, drastically change at this point. They have chosen their hill, they gotta make sure the balance is at the very least OK so they die on it with at least some dignity.
    They've never cared about balance before. Balance isn't the reason for the delay.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Mightytasty View Post
    Preach said that during a second round of raid testing 3 days ago, some classes were 50% ahead of others. He believes this is what led to the delay.

    It’s looking like the web of covenants, soulbinds, and conduits are so impossible to tune, they have resorted to heavily nerfing everything. I believe we’ll see a total rework of at least one of these systems before launch.
    Look, it might be a reason, but it's not the major reason for the delay, you can count on that. If it was only about some raid bosses, they wouldn't delay the launch. Per what beta testers are reporting, there are a lot other major issues. Like class abilities that just don't work or don't work properly, bugged quests that can stop character progress, because the questing is linear in shadowlands, etc. With such things being at a broken or bugged state, releasing would be like shooting yourself on the foot.

    Having said that, when there are bugs that prevent character progression or playing your class, it's out of place imo to believe that covenant outrage or a couple of raid bosses are the major reasons for delaying Shadowlands.

    About balance, I am pretty sure they haven't reached the point to get seriously involved with balancing classes. I mean, if you have classes with abilities that just don't work and covenant abilities that are not set somewhat in stone yet, it's not really worth it to put serious resources into balancing classes. You can just do some rough balance. Anything more would probably end up being a waste of resources, because after those abilities start working and those covenant abilities are finalized, you'd have to balance again and probably a lot of the balancing work done in earlier stages would be scrapped.

    So, imho, the logical thing to do is fix major issues, especially those that block character progression, fix class abilities, somewhat finalize the nature of covenant abilities, then balance classes and covenant abilities. Then fix everything else.

    I am not saying that having a covenant ability do 1/3 of your damage or having classes do 70% more than other classes are not serious issues, I am just saying that them being involved with fixing other major issues (broken quests, broken class abilities, etc) is the cause of such major imbalances.

    Finally, I believe it will be hard to even fix major issues and balance classes till December, so I wouldn't expect any reworks at this stage.
    Last edited by orsraunia; 2020-10-05 at 09:15 AM.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    To late to change stuff - they need to focus on just fixing what's there. I'd guess 2 months should be long enough to do that.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Nah - that would be a huge mistake.

    Can't believe after BfA where people complained about a lack of choice because of RNG that people are now whinging about getting nothing but choice in Shadowlands.
    Maybe it’s not the same “people” complaining? Ever think of that?

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurosh View Post
    Well they usually have no clue how to tune stuff. Like always there will be specs after tuning dealing 20% more single target dps and great aoe damage, others will be 100% ahead in AOE, some will be bad at both...

    It cannot be random, that e.g. rogues, mages, warlocks always overperform in beta. DHs are great in AOE,MMhunter is an AOE monster. So basically the ony thing special atm is that warriors arent looking great.
    Well you can't have every spec be equally good at everything otherwise what's the point in having classes in the first place? Tuning doesn't mean making everything equal, it's making one specs strength equal to the strength of another spec even if those strengths are completely different.

  5. #245
    Add a quest and scenario to the end of each Timewalking campaign. It'd feel terrible to build up a fight against the Lich King for 40 levels and then get unceremoniously teleported back to Orgrimmar.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    They've never cared about balance before. Balance isn't the reason for the delay.
    Of course it is.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    Maybe it’s not the same “people” complaining?
    Which tells you one really important thing then

    Due to COVID-19, Germany is running out of sausages and cheese.
    The government considers this to be the Wurst Käse scenario

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Sezh View Post
    Of course it is.
    Surely not, because after the first few months they will discover that one class is OP as hell and out comes the nerfs. No point delaying it until we've at least proven the unbalance ourselves

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by pinstripe View Post
    Surely not, because after the first few months they will discover that one class is OP as hell and out comes the nerfs. No point delaying it until we've at least proven the unbalance ourselves
    Balance is not black and white. Perfect balance is impossible to achieve, but you can't have situation that reminds more year 2005 than 2020. If disbalance is huge, you can notice it even in small Beta pool.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by pinstripe View Post
    Surely not, because after the first few months they will discover that one class is OP as hell and out comes the nerfs. No point delaying it until we've at least proven the unbalance ourselves
    Well we did. Not Class wide but covenant wide at least.

    Same class different coventant does 30-40% more damage than the other, in some cases.. if people are ok with that "for RPG reasons"... idk what to say *shrug*
    Also tuning is more important now as tuning of the covenants in most cases tunes 36 specs at once... so you have to turn the numbers with the class itself or the ability you get... that again tunes all specs of your class.
    It is nearly impossible to tune this this time around sadly.
    So regarding that? You are right^^ why delay

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    Balance is not black and white. Perfect balance is impossible to achieve, but you can't have situation that reminds more year 2005 than 2020. If disbalance is huge, you can notice it even in small Beta pool.
    True, but if the disbalance isn't huge, why delay the game? That level of fine tweaking should be done after a few months of being live imo

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by pinstripe View Post
    True, but if the disbalance isn't huge, why delay the game? That level of fine tweaking should be done after a few months of being live imo
    From what I heard it IS huge. Not to mention unacceptable number of bugs. Many of us though they are few builds ahead, but looks like they were not since they choose last resort.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by pinstripe View Post
    True, but if the disbalance isn't huge, why delay the game? That level of fine tweaking should be done after a few months of being live imo
    People in beta report bugged quests that can halt player progress and some class abilities that are not even working and some that don't work properly. Other major issues too. And they are still changing covenant abilities, not tweaking, but completely changing some. So, ofc there is no balance yet, because they haven't gotten to the part where they need to be in order to get involved with balancing classes. They need to sort out other things first. So, ofc it's not about fine tuning, but about enough work that needs to be done in order for the expansion to be at a somewhat releasable state.

    People that think that it's about extra polish and extra fine tuning are naive imo. They wouldn't delay for that. The delay is to fix and finish the expansion. If their major problem was fine tuning covenant abilities, they could just nerf the hell out of them and then balance classes around those nerfed abilities, with the prospect of revisiting them in a following large patch.

    If your covenant class ability contributes like 1% to your DPS, it doesn't really matter much if a different covenant ability is like even 50% better... It becomes rather meaningless, if it contributes just 1% to your DPS, but yeah, it would be an easy bandaid and they'd release... But ofc, this is not the problem... it's not about balance. It's about being behind schedule in a lot more stuff too.
    Last edited by orsraunia; 2020-10-05 at 11:03 AM.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by orsraunia View Post
    People in beta report bugged quests that can halt player progress and some class abilities that are not even working and some that don't work properly. Other major issues too. And they are still changing covenant abilities, not tweaking, but completely changing some. So, ofc there is no balance yet, because they haven't gotten to the part where they need to be in order to get involved with balancing classes. They need to sort out other things first. So, ofc it's not about fine tuning, but about enough work that needs to be done in order for the expansion to be at a somewhat releasable state.

    People that think that it's about extra polish and extra fine tuning are naive imo. They wouldn't delay for that. The delay is to fix and finish the expansion.
    Seems like a more likely reason to delay. Do we have a rough idea when it will go fully live?

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by pinstripe View Post
    Seems like a more likely reason to delay. Do we have a rough idea when it will go fully live?
    Nah, we can only speculate. Pre-patch is set for Oct 13 atm, so I don't expect any new date being announced before that. I don't have any inside knowledge, so I am just speculating based on what is widely known. I believe that they want to wait and see how pre-patch launch goes, like if players find any major issues with the leveling, new systems, etc. And also see what their progress on the expansion will be up to that point.

    Personally, I believe that we may get some news between pre-patch and Friday, Oct 16, but I am not holding my breath. Naturally, they don't want to risk missing the next date they'll announce, so we may learn the new release date even way later than that. Obviously, they are on a "lets see how things progress" mode atm.
    Last edited by orsraunia; 2020-10-05 at 11:20 AM.

  16. #256
    Have you seen this bluepost from 4 days ago? https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...nderway/660297

    Apparently they started tuning Covenants... slowly. Very slowly.

    I don't know how you can tune something that isn't even properly working or doesn't work with a spec at all. But we'll see how this continues in the next weeks.
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  17. #257
    Tuning can be done after release, this isn't much of a work, bugs are taking most of the time. Nothing should or will be changed in that time.

    Oh, this ability is doing too much damage... hmm what can I do? Well it scales 450% with spell power so lets cut this to 300%, **slam**, done
    vs
    Shit, this quest bugs and people can't finish it, hell, what is wrong with code? I works properly for me... hmm, lets try this... nope, still work... maybe... no...

    Debugging takes way more time.

  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinstripe View Post
    Seems like a more likely reason to delay. Do we have a rough idea when it will go fully live?
    We can only speculate. Personally my guess is that the delay is likely to be about 2-4 weeks which would put the release date mid-late November.

    My reasoning is as follows: They announced the delay pretty late. What that tells us is that up until a few weeks ago they still thought they had a shot at finishing up on time. Which means that they probably would have got pretty close to finished by the original launch date.

    Also they have announced the pre-patch which people expected to last between 3 and 6 weeks.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Tuning can be done after release, this isn't much of a work, bugs are taking most of the time. Nothing should or will be changed in that time.

    Oh, this ability is doing too much damage... hmm what can I do? Well it scales 450% with spell power so lets cut this to 300%, **slam**, done
    vs
    Shit, this quest bugs and people can't finish it, hell, what is wrong with code? I works properly for me... hmm, lets try this... nope, still work... maybe... no...

    Debugging takes way more time.
    I mean in the past yes... so is a broken mess of poorly thought out interconnected systems though. Unless they actually grit their teeth and hashtag pull the rip cord it is going to take considerable time. Unless they utterly crush conduits at the very least.

    Shadowlands is like the tale of Icarus. Blizzard tried to soar above min maxing only for their balance to be so terrible they crashed into the sea.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    The 50-60 leveling is pretty broken right now. Also there are just so many bugs with classes and conduits right now. Class Balancing is probably not the reason for the delay... this stuff is only really important in the so-called "heroic week" before they launch mythic and m+.

    But yeah, bugs and broken leveling is 90% of the reason.
    By broken leveling do you mean too fast or too slow or? Because is it is stupid fast say a few 2-4 hours I am all for that.

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