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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by pinstripe View Post
    Surely not, because after the first few months they will discover that one class is OP as hell and out comes the nerfs. No point delaying it until we've at least proven the unbalance ourselves
    Balance is not black and white. Perfect balance is impossible to achieve, but you can't have situation that reminds more year 2005 than 2020. If disbalance is huge, you can notice it even in small Beta pool.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by pinstripe View Post
    Surely not, because after the first few months they will discover that one class is OP as hell and out comes the nerfs. No point delaying it until we've at least proven the unbalance ourselves
    Well we did. Not Class wide but covenant wide at least.

    Same class different coventant does 30-40% more damage than the other, in some cases.. if people are ok with that "for RPG reasons"... idk what to say *shrug*
    Also tuning is more important now as tuning of the covenants in most cases tunes 36 specs at once... so you have to turn the numbers with the class itself or the ability you get... that again tunes all specs of your class.
    It is nearly impossible to tune this this time around sadly.
    So regarding that? You are right^^ why delay

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    Balance is not black and white. Perfect balance is impossible to achieve, but you can't have situation that reminds more year 2005 than 2020. If disbalance is huge, you can notice it even in small Beta pool.
    True, but if the disbalance isn't huge, why delay the game? That level of fine tweaking should be done after a few months of being live imo

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by pinstripe View Post
    True, but if the disbalance isn't huge, why delay the game? That level of fine tweaking should be done after a few months of being live imo
    From what I heard it IS huge. Not to mention unacceptable number of bugs. Many of us though they are few builds ahead, but looks like they were not since they choose last resort.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by pinstripe View Post
    True, but if the disbalance isn't huge, why delay the game? That level of fine tweaking should be done after a few months of being live imo
    People in beta report bugged quests that can halt player progress and some class abilities that are not even working and some that don't work properly. Other major issues too. And they are still changing covenant abilities, not tweaking, but completely changing some. So, ofc there is no balance yet, because they haven't gotten to the part where they need to be in order to get involved with balancing classes. They need to sort out other things first. So, ofc it's not about fine tuning, but about enough work that needs to be done in order for the expansion to be at a somewhat releasable state.

    People that think that it's about extra polish and extra fine tuning are naive imo. They wouldn't delay for that. The delay is to fix and finish the expansion. If their major problem was fine tuning covenant abilities, they could just nerf the hell out of them and then balance classes around those nerfed abilities, with the prospect of revisiting them in a following large patch.

    If your covenant class ability contributes like 1% to your DPS, it doesn't really matter much if a different covenant ability is like even 50% better... It becomes rather meaningless, if it contributes just 1% to your DPS, but yeah, it would be an easy bandaid and they'd release... But ofc, this is not the problem... it's not about balance. It's about being behind schedule in a lot more stuff too.
    Last edited by orsraunia; 2020-10-05 at 11:03 AM.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by orsraunia View Post
    People in beta report bugged quests that can halt player progress and some class abilities that are not even working and some that don't work properly. Other major issues too. And they are still changing covenant abilities, not tweaking, but completely changing some. So, ofc there is no balance yet, because they haven't gotten to the part where they need to be in order to get involved with balancing classes. They need to sort out other things first. So, ofc it's not about fine tuning, but about enough work that needs to be done in order for the expansion to be at a somewhat releasable state.

    People that think that it's about extra polish and extra fine tuning are naive imo. They wouldn't delay for that. The delay is to fix and finish the expansion.
    Seems like a more likely reason to delay. Do we have a rough idea when it will go fully live?

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by pinstripe View Post
    Seems like a more likely reason to delay. Do we have a rough idea when it will go fully live?
    Nah, we can only speculate. Pre-patch is set for Oct 13 atm, so I don't expect any new date being announced before that. I don't have any inside knowledge, so I am just speculating based on what is widely known. I believe that they want to wait and see how pre-patch launch goes, like if players find any major issues with the leveling, new systems, etc. And also see what their progress on the expansion will be up to that point.

    Personally, I believe that we may get some news between pre-patch and Friday, Oct 16, but I am not holding my breath. Naturally, they don't want to risk missing the next date they'll announce, so we may learn the new release date even way later than that. Obviously, they are on a "lets see how things progress" mode atm.
    Last edited by orsraunia; 2020-10-05 at 11:20 AM.

  8. #248
    Have you seen this bluepost from 4 days ago? https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...nderway/660297

    Apparently they started tuning Covenants... slowly. Very slowly.

    I don't know how you can tune something that isn't even properly working or doesn't work with a spec at all. But we'll see how this continues in the next weeks.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  9. #249
    Tuning can be done after release, this isn't much of a work, bugs are taking most of the time. Nothing should or will be changed in that time.

    Oh, this ability is doing too much damage... hmm what can I do? Well it scales 450% with spell power so lets cut this to 300%, **slam**, done
    vs
    Shit, this quest bugs and people can't finish it, hell, what is wrong with code? I works properly for me... hmm, lets try this... nope, still work... maybe... no...

    Debugging takes way more time.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinstripe View Post
    Seems like a more likely reason to delay. Do we have a rough idea when it will go fully live?
    We can only speculate. Personally my guess is that the delay is likely to be about 2-4 weeks which would put the release date mid-late November.

    My reasoning is as follows: They announced the delay pretty late. What that tells us is that up until a few weeks ago they still thought they had a shot at finishing up on time. Which means that they probably would have got pretty close to finished by the original launch date.

    Also they have announced the pre-patch which people expected to last between 3 and 6 weeks.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Tuning can be done after release, this isn't much of a work, bugs are taking most of the time. Nothing should or will be changed in that time.

    Oh, this ability is doing too much damage... hmm what can I do? Well it scales 450% with spell power so lets cut this to 300%, **slam**, done
    vs
    Shit, this quest bugs and people can't finish it, hell, what is wrong with code? I works properly for me... hmm, lets try this... nope, still work... maybe... no...

    Debugging takes way more time.
    I mean in the past yes... so is a broken mess of poorly thought out interconnected systems though. Unless they actually grit their teeth and hashtag pull the rip cord it is going to take considerable time. Unless they utterly crush conduits at the very least.

    Shadowlands is like the tale of Icarus. Blizzard tried to soar above min maxing only for their balance to be so terrible they crashed into the sea.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    The 50-60 leveling is pretty broken right now. Also there are just so many bugs with classes and conduits right now. Class Balancing is probably not the reason for the delay... this stuff is only really important in the so-called "heroic week" before they launch mythic and m+.

    But yeah, bugs and broken leveling is 90% of the reason.
    By broken leveling do you mean too fast or too slow or? Because is it is stupid fast say a few 2-4 hours I am all for that.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Romanz View Post
    Delay the expansion. That's fine, a finished game is better than a rushed one.
    However,
    With the dumpster fire that is BFA still clutching at our ankle and with the prepatch coming in 2 weeks we need to talk about 2 things.
    1st Make the Heart of Azeroth instant 85 and essences account wide for all alts.
    2nd Make the cloak instant 15 on quest completion or make upgrades purchasable by the 8.3 factions/Wrathion.
    With us being stuck with 2 months of Prepatch the only thing to do will be to level Alts until the Icecrown/Scourge invasion comes and when they do they drop loot equivalent to Normal Nyalotha then making the raid obsolete.
    The delay made alot of people happy, but having to continue to grind BFA systems in the Shadowlands prepatch won't.
    Here's a thought, just don't. You can lvl alts to prep for SL, gear them with the free ilvl 100 gear in prepatch and either get professions ready to go or just leave them till release.

    Corruptions won't even be a thing in prepatch anymore. So farming essences and the like would be a pointless and worthless grind for nothing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    By broken leveling do you mean too fast or too slow or? Because is it is stupid fast say a few 2-4 hours I am all for that.
    It's broken because if you do loremaster in all zones, you still don't hit 60. Loremaster currently takes you to 58, 59 if you kill a lot of extra crap along the way. It shouldn't be required to do every single quest in each zone plus 3-5 dungeon runs just to hit cap. After your first character, threads of fate gets even worse. Without the MSQ you end up finishing the zones at around lvl 56. Granted that is depending on if you do it all in a day or over time. As you are able to do WQ along the way so spreading it over days gives more quests.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by ReleaseDay View Post
    People are just speculating as to why the delay, but none really no for sure..
    The delay is very easy for anyone with beta to understand. It is still an extremely buggy mess which is a direct result from development having to continue from home instead of their offices. The prior release date was pushed by corporate (Activision, the source of all the shit decisions to come to WoW since the sale) to bump their quarterly numbers to artificially inflate things for their end of year reports etc etc stock manipulation nonsense and when it became clear that it was going to necessitate overtime to actually deliver on a date not determined by the actual developers of the title the buttholes and purse strings clenched up tighter than a drum.

    It isn't rocket science.

    So for all those thinking that the delay will somehow give them time to change things from how they already are, that is extremely unlikely outside of some small class implementations.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    By broken leveling do you mean too fast or too slow or? Because is it is stupid fast say a few 2-4 hours I am all for that.
    Well it's neither and both basically and that's why it's broken. Bastion can easily give you at least 4 levels, while Maldraxxus barely gives you 1.

    The quest xp and scalling is all over the place.
    Last edited by RobertMugabe; 2020-10-05 at 02:25 PM.

  16. #256
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    Blizz said the release will be in 2020 still, so I would be realistic about the expectations of changes. A few extra weeks, a month, or at most 2 months, is not a lot of dev time at all. Especially considering any changes also have to go through a full testing cycle. So it's really just a few extra weeks for devs.

    So this time will be for exactly what they said it would be used for, polish. Minor bug fixes, some small graphical touch-ups here and there, some minor tweaks, that type of thing. I wouldn't expect major changes like a big revamp to covenants or a big shift to the plotline. Which is fine. I'd just say keep expectations level around that so people aren't disappointed that the delay didn't give us revamped covenants, player housing, and 2 extra raid tiers.

  17. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    I think it's delayed for about a month
    Wow, that little? Perhaps, definitely won't complain if it's just a month. I'm personally a bit suspicious of it being a month at this point, largely as they didn't have another date prepared with their announcement. Though really, they can't go much further than a month if they actually want to release the game in 2020.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Enitzu View Post
    It's broken because if you do loremaster in all zones, you still don't hit 60. Loremaster currently takes you to 58, 59 if you kill a lot of extra crap along the way. It shouldn't be required to do every single quest in each zone plus 3-5 dungeon runs just to hit cap. After your first character, threads of fate gets even worse. Without the MSQ you end up finishing the zones at around lvl 56. Granted that is depending on if you do it all in a day or over time. As you are able to do WQ along the way so spreading it over days gives more quests.
    Sorry, but this is not broken and you shouldn't consider it as broken. Not ideal, but not broken. Broken is if something bugs and you can't progress. And it's pretty much linear leveling this time around, so you can't just ignore that bugged quest, if it stops your story progress, and go quest in some other zone. Few days ago I "heard" that there are some quests that can bug out like this, but don't know details.
    Last edited by orsraunia; 2020-10-05 at 04:07 PM.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by orsraunia View Post
    Look, it might be a reason, but it's not the major reason for the delay, you can count on that. If it was only about some raid bosses, they wouldn't delay the launch. Per what beta testers are reporting, there are a lot other major issues. Like class abilities that just don't work or don't work properly, bugged quests that can stop character progress, because the questing is linear in shadowlands, etc. With such things being at a broken or bugged state, releasing would be like shooting yourself on the foot.

    Having said that, when there are bugs that prevent character progression or playing your class, it's out of place imo to believe that covenant outrage or a couple of raid bosses are the major reasons for delaying Shadowlands.

    About balance, I am pretty sure they haven't reached the point to get seriously involved with balancing classes. I mean, if you have classes with abilities that just don't work and covenant abilities that are not set somewhat in stone yet, it's not really worth it to put serious resources into balancing classes. You can just do some rough balance. Anything more would probably end up being a waste of resources, because after those abilities start working and those covenant abilities are finalized, you'd have to balance again and probably a lot of the balancing work done in earlier stages would be scrapped.

    So, imho, the logical thing to do is fix major issues, especially those that block character progression, fix class abilities, somewhat finalize the nature of covenant abilities, then balance classes and covenant abilities. Then fix everything else.

    I am not saying that having a covenant ability do 1/3 of your damage or having classes do 70% more than other classes are not serious issues, I am just saying that them being involved with fixing other major issues (broken quests, broken class abilities, etc) is the cause of such major imbalances.

    Finally, I believe it will be hard to even fix major issues and balance classes till December, so I wouldn't expect any reworks at this stage.
    I agree, nice post.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Enitzu View Post
    Here's a thought, just don't. You can lvl alts to prep for SL, gear them with the free ilvl 100 gear in prepatch and either get professions ready to go or just leave them till release.

    Corruptions won't even be a thing in prepatch anymore. So farming essences and the like would be a pointless and worthless grind for nothing.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It's broken because if you do loremaster in all zones, you still don't hit 60. Loremaster currently takes you to 58, 59 if you kill a lot of extra crap along the way. It shouldn't be required to do every single quest in each zone plus 3-5 dungeon runs just to hit cap. After your first character, threads of fate gets even worse. Without the MSQ you end up finishing the zones at around lvl 56. Granted that is depending on if you do it all in a day or over time. As you are able to do WQ along the way so spreading it over days gives more quests.
    O, F That I hate even having to complete 1 zone of quests to get to max level. That is broken in an awful way. I despise Quests and leveling in any capacity, and really hate having to do them in the zones to get flying unlocked so I have not been able to fly since MOP.

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