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  1. #81
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    That boat has sailed and would be difficult to recall. I can think of an approach though: Jump the expansion forward a few years, make an elaborate farm like in Mists but /more/ and start off the pre-patch with all of us 'retired'. Then we could be called back into service in a way that wouldn't necessarily be written to suck up to us as much as in the past. It could even insert something simple that would require us to get back in shape again with respect to fighting skills etc.

    I think it's nonsense to believe they would ever do something but if they wanted to reset the 'importance' factor of the former heroes, something like this might work.

    Then there would also be another nice farm to maintain as well.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  2. #82
    A solution would be to make the current title of your character reflecting his only one achievement :

    A character with "the Kingslayer" title would be recognised by NPCs as one of the guy who helped Tirion to defeat Arthas, but not one of the heroes who defeated Argus (the "Titanslayers") or N'zoth (the Uncorrupted). So your character can achieve a great thing, but only one and so not being a godlike savior who defeated every threat accross each xpac.

  3. #83
    From WotLK:
    https://www.wowhead.com/quest=11672/enlistment-day

    "You've come to enlist, right? Normally you'd have to stand in line like the other recruits. Normally you'd be out of luck because the recruitment ledger's gone missing and I can't process anyone until the new books get here.

    Fortunately for you, <name>, I've heard about you and what you did in Outland. To be honest, you're a cut above these poor saps. Lines aren't for you.

    Go to the barracks and speak to General Arlos. He'll be more than happy to meet with someone of your caliber."

    Nah. I'm happy being different.


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  4. #84
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    It makes sense tho.

    No ordinary adventurer defeats the one who would otherwise destroy life on Azeroth. Maybe he does, but he does it over and over again, he becomes that, a champion or hero.

    It would not make sense to be plain adventurers.. no ordinary NPC ever went into a raid and defeated a boss.. time after time for years

  5. #85
    The Lightbringer Dalheim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    I've been a general, the champion of the Tirisgarde and they even send for me during Horde leadership meetings

    The Darkspear need a Chieftain? Well, of course I'll take the mantle... Oh wait... Ok... Rokhan... Suuuure...
    So true. I mean, we as players have done far more than the racial leaders have at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aktavite View Post
    From WotLK:
    https://www.wowhead.com/quest=11672/enlistment-day

    "You've come to enlist, right? Normally you'd have to stand in line like the other recruits. Normally you'd be out of luck because the recruitment ledger's gone missing and I can't process anyone until the new books get here.

    Fortunately for you, <name>, I've heard about you and what you did in Outland. To be honest, you're a cut above these poor saps. Lines aren't for you.

    Go to the barracks and speak to General Arlos. He'll be more than happy to meet with someone of your caliber."

    Nah. I'm happy being different.
    But this one is fine, it just shows that we are well known soldier/veteran rather than an outright Hero/Champion.
    Last edited by Dalheim; 2020-10-05 at 08:03 AM.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    Yeah, I'm pretty tired of the "Champion"-stuff too... I preferred when we were cogs in the wheel. Maybe the next revamp of EK/Kalimdor can bring us down a few pegs. I really wish they'd make it so that after SL, we've come back as time has moved much faster on Azeroth, meaning we'd be "nobodies" again to those new generations.
    Didn't you feel like shit though, at the start of BfA when they stripped you of your artifact weapon? For example, as a paladin, you the freaking Ashbringer, Highlord of the Silver Hand, and then, you go into Kul'Tiras like an average Joe. For better or worse as many said above we are god-tier now, they just have to do a better job writing our story. My personal opinion expand in the order halls, give mini campaigns there, reflecting the stance of the order hall in every expansion. With that you can also achieve the universal peace between the factions, which seem to be the thing blizz is working on lately.
    ''Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities'' ~Voltaire
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  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    I've bitched about this before because I hate it, but the unfortunate truth is that the cat is out of the bag here. They've already escalated players to god tier in the storyline, and it would be weird and nonsensical to suddenly have NPCs act like you're some rando adventurer after all that. They should have not done this ongoing escalation of individuals to begin with, and treated players like the impact they had on the world was real but less personal and more part of a general effort of the population to defeat whatever the current evil was... but that's not what they chose to do.

    recycling last time I complained about it:
    Yep. They've pretty much had us take down every single major character ourselves, rather than enable them to die. The proper approach would be to have fights like Lich King or Deathwing, where we don't really kill the guy, just help a major NPC do it. Instead we're literally going around now popping Archimonde, (I'm not counting Mount Hyjal since it's basically non-canon), Kil'Jaeden, N'zoth, Azshara, etc.

  8. #88
    Bloodsail Admiral Krawu's Avatar
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    I Wholeheartedly agree, it's getting annoying now.
    This brings to mind the video by Captain Grim which very nicely details this hugely different approach between Vanilla and now:


  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Easy solution would be that every new expansion we are a new adventurer.
    Can't really take that approach since every expansion since WoD has directly tied into the next one. Our actions in WoD set up Legion, our actions in Legion set up BFA, and so on. Sure, you can argue that we set up WoD with MoP, but Garrosh escaped in a book, not because of our actions in the final raid.

    Not to mention they keep carrying over NPCs who clearly know you.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    You're the reason we go from "Kill the lich king" to "Pick up rat poop" within 20 minutes.
    Pretty much this. The story is much better when treated as someone important rather than a random dupe for hire.

  11. #91
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Nah, I love the fact that my character has grown from a fledgling to a champion/commander of his faction.

    If you want to play as an Adventurer, cap your EXP at level 20 and go do boring shit there.

  12. #92
    That's just nonsense from RPG standpoint. What "just Adventurers"?

    We have so many accomplishments by now that frikkin' denizens of Azeroth should be building temples in our honor and pray at our statues.

  13. #93
    Herald of the Titans Jazzhands's Avatar
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    As much as I enjoyed eating seeds and shitting them out in Grizzly Hills, digging through so, so much poop, and playing fetch more than my 15 year old dog Lt.Barklay did in all his days... I don't mind being important. Legion did go a bit far, being the "Class Champion" in an MMO is kind of dumb, but I don't mind being a "Faction Champion", there are a lot of those. Even in Vanilla we were dealing with world ending threats in end game, you can't exactly save the world dozens of times and not have your faction leaders knock on your door.

    It's basically the power creep of lore, but it's much harder to reset.

  14. #94
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Which is why Arthas, Garrosh, and Illidan are perfect villains - basically just souped up characters.

    Anytime Wow starts fooling with city or planet sized bosses - Deathwing, NZoth, Sargeras- things start to get silly.
    Yeah...it was actually aconcern how we could ever fight Deathwing (and then when they found a way that to me at least sounded interesting, "everyone" hated it). Didn't get better with Sargeras.

    I agree, Arthas also worked, because he basically killed us and then...a last second rescue (but again...bit of a Deus ex machina, the worst way to cop out)

    I guess we were able to defeat Ragnaros in MC because he was "weakened" (and same for Yogg or KJ in SWP) - but in a way...if you start your stories with such powerful characters, you know you will just need bigger threads very soon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ticj View Post
    only real way to fix this is to have us go somewhere we are unheard of (like we did in pandaria) or to have a fairly large timeskip.
    Which I'd say we did with Zandalar and KT (at least for the questlines of the natives) and WoD (yeah...we became the Garrison leader, but you might say it is a new role to prove your worth in - and then again there are questlines from the natives that don't know you)

    But really what bothered me about WoD was the intro experience...especially the cutscenes where Kadgar just one shots stuff, helps us escape the arean as if he was just toying with the orcs. I was like..."Man..why do I need to help you with all this shit...you can clearly solo everything much faster"

    Overall...I guess they could have taken things down a notch (be one of many in your Legion class hall and don't do the artifact thing) - but as I said earlier: Put yourself in the position where you eventually end up designing 15 years worth of content with 25+ raidtiers. Even if you take out the "champion" part...you were still one of 25 (give or take) to eliminate a big threat. It still makes you the saviour of the world several times over. Or do folks here really need everything explained and played out as "Oh no, it wasn't just you and your raidgroup, it was hundreds and thousands of raidgroups assaulting the place"

    Add to that if people got their wish and we never fought a bigger thread than Arthas and Ilidan, I swear people would complain what a cocktease WoW is and how boring it is to never advance to a bigger evil.

    To me it is to a degree suspension of disbelief....of which we are perfectly capable in movies and comics etc.

  15. #95
    Since this is an MMO I think any story approach that doesn't take other players into consideration fails, at least for me. "If everyone is super, no-one is super". Legion was stupid where we led our classhall, BFA is worse with us being the champion of Azeroth. In my opinion bosses killed sort of need to be handwaved away, maybe NPCs could have a special emote if you were world first, but apart form that, at least for me, it's better if you are treated as a cog in the machinery. An important cog, but a cog.

    The best I've seen, for my taste, this far in this thread is the wotlk intro quest, the NPC knows who you are and that you are good, so he tells you to cut the recruitment line and go straight to the commander. In BFA he would run up to you clutching his bodypillow with you on it and ask if he could kiss your boots. I don't think the story works in an MMO where we are the leader of everything, but we can't make a single choice ever, and everyone we see is also the leader of everything.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Krawu View Post
    I Wholeheartedly agree, it's getting annoying now.
    This brings to mind the video by Captain Grim which very nicely details this hugely different approach between Vanilla and now:
    Me, personally, never really understood that particular gripe/argument.
    I mean, I was there in Vanilla for the gardening tool quests. I was also there to hear Thrall tell me "This is a great victory for the Horde, <name>. So many times you have honored your Warchief. It is time for the Warchief to honor you." and then announce for the whole city to hear that I am an awesome dragonslayer.

    Yes, in Vanilla there was the whole progression from gardening tools to dragonslayer, but that's just it - the progression was there. It was done. That's what progression usually entails, it's eventually finished. If I hand over Ony's head to Thrall in vanilla and in Wrath he treats me like some no name grunt barely worth his time, then that just feels wrong to me.

    There really isn't a grand solution for this. Either you have NPCs plagued by massive memory loss, forgetting about the heroes that, well, slayed dragons for them, or you accept that they might get an inflated opinion of you. It's not like every quest in the newer zones has NPCs put you on a pedestal either, anyway. Often enough you are just a dude or dudette that happens to be available and capable to help with an issue. It's usually when we act in an official capacity or with characters that canonically know us that we are given more respect and recognition, really.

  17. #97
    Warchief Voidism's Avatar
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    I mean, the Shadowlands would've been an excellent place to do this. We're not known there as we are on Azeroth.

  18. #98
    Brewmaster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    I love FFXIV and all, but its approach to storytelling is VASTLY different than WoW's Because of that, I think treating the player as a "Champion" or "Hero" of their given faction can often times feel very frustrating.

    Now, when I say "players should be treated as Adventurers", what I really mean is that we should be treated as random mercenaries. That's not to say main characters dislike us or anything, but our involvement in our factions should be something that is largely left to our own devices. If I am a Dwarf, it might be IMPLIED that I serve Ironforge and by extension the Alliance (thus justifying the opposing faction treating you with hostility), as an "Adventurer", you would function largely outside of it. You are not a soldier, you did not sign-up for the army, you are an adventurer whose goals are your own to define.

    This serves two purposes:

    First, it makes it more believable that NPC's of the "opposing faction" would be willing to work with you. If the President of the US launched a nuke at China, then it is unlikely a Chinese General would be willing to work with an American General. However, some random American bounty-hunter or something? Possibly. Case in point; it wouldn't make sense of Tyrande to work with a "Champion of the Horde" who could've prevented the burning of Teldrassil. Some random mercenary who couldn't have stopped it even if he wanted? Far more plausible.

    Second, it gives Blizzard the freedom to make more bold decisions on behalf of the factions at play. Sylvanas burning Teldrassil pissed a lot of Horde players off, too because as Warchief of the Horde, they were also culpable for her actions. As Adventurers who were simply "paid to be there, in case they were needed", players would have the freedom to condemn Sylvanas, without feeling like there characters are obliged to follow her blindly.

    It may seem a minor point to stress, but I truly think this distinction between "Champion" and "Adventurer" would just really absolve a lot of the ongoing issues with WoW's storytelling, and how it often affects players and their characters.
    I agree. At least for me, "champion" should be only in single player games, and "adventurer" in multiplayer ones. Totally breaks my immersion being called the supreme champion, wielder of the fabled sword Ashbringer, and I look to the side and see 5 other dudes with the same title and sword..
    You don't understand. Having an unpayed full time job that no one appreciates is the magic of classic.

    It's about the journey. The journey into depression. The journey of running a daycare full of middle-aged alcoholics ignoring their SOs and avoiding social engagements to fulfill something they wanted 15 years ago before everyone realized it's not hard at all.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmilblick View Post
    You can't keep people adventurers for more than 15 years.
    True. But you can avoid elevating them to a god-like status. Giving us Artifacts in Legion and the Heart of Azeroth now was a mistake.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    It started in vanilla, where we already killed an elemental lord, several dragons, an old god and a lieutenant of the lich king.
    This so much. I hate this whining about "muh adventurer RP" when in reality we haven't been adventurers since the old level 55ish when many of us killed shit like dread lords in stratholme, dwarven emperors in the depths of blackrock, not to mention the direct descendents of elemental lords (45-50ish in Maudradon?). The whole adventurer things was true for about 2 months in all of WoW's 15+ year history.

    If anything it's astonishing how Blizzard manages to ignore the player's history on a consitent basis and prevents us from having any semblance of agency in our latest world saving adventurs. Also let's be real here, how would you even write a low tier adventurer story in WoW? It's a fucking theme park where the goal is to let us see the cool characters we've come to like and measure our e-peens, a run of the mill adventurer story in the context of the universe would be us collecting bear arses all day long. I'm sure that would be absolutely riveting. With the sheer size of the world now every person that operates on a global scale like we do, and be it just from traveling alone, can't a simple adventurer anymore.
    Last edited by Haidaes; 2020-10-05 at 10:22 AM.
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
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