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  1. #121
    I don't think people are reading the OP, just the title. At first I was the same, I was thinking "I like being the Champion", but after actually reading I get what you're saying, you mean to make things faction-independent in a way. And yeah, I guess that's one way to solve things - for example everyone seems to be punished for their actions BUT the player, who's always front and center and never held accountable. Or they could make us involved canonically and bear consequences - for example when Baine is imprisoned for betraying Sylvanas, we're also imprisoned (because we helped). Either way, we're there but we're not really there so it should be fixed in a way.

  2. #122
    How do you want to be just an adventurer after defeating one world-ending threat after another?

    I hate to be a hero but there is no way back in the current game.

  3. #123
    As others said, the cat is out of the bag. No going back now unless they created a event that either time jumps you , or magically wipes your presence from the collective memory of the world. They could even have a quest chainset up for you to gain a new Identity . As it is we are Immortal Gods where death has no meaningful impact on us. Shit if I had my way , We would have consequences for our decisions. Kill Townspeople? risk getting arrested then being forced to break out get your gear back and hide. Stealth would be a play style. Disguises, illusions etc would be needed to go into cities. Would set up a entire new way to play .
    Non nobis Domine, non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Or they could make us involved canonically and bear consequences - for example when Baine is imprisoned for betraying Sylvanas, we're also imprisoned (because we helped). Either way, we're there but we're not really there so it should be fixed in a way.
    Except that we didn't betray Sylvanas. Everythign we did, we kept Sylvanas apprised of and in more than a few instances to go along with it and report back to her. Sylvanas had no reason to imprision us as we were following her orders.

  5. #125
    I am Murloc! Chonar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    I've bitched about this before because I hate it, but the unfortunate truth is that the cat is out of the bag here. They've already escalated players to god tier in the storyline, and it would be weird and nonsensical to suddenly have NPCs act like you're some rando adventurer after all that.
    Perhaps after a time skip where we've been gone in some sort of.. I dont know, realm where time works differently for so long, our deeds have passed on into legend and no one recognises our faces anymore...
    I did not hit that snowmound, it's not true! It's bullshit, I did not hit it. I did NAHT.
    Oh hai Yeti

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Fabled View Post
    Wouldn't be a problem if most MMOs, if not all, are quick to build the player character up into something more right off the bat. WoW was probably the only one not to do it early on. It's bound to happen, it's easy enough to fix going on through expansions, but they won't do it.
    How would you fix it?

  7. #127
    When i heard the first lore speculations for the rise of N'Zoth i really hoped that we would just loose against N'Zoth resulting in the world to be overtaken or destroyd allowing the dev team to kind of restart WoW.

    Then i imagined we would start as new characters in the next expansion trying to survive in this world consumed by the void. No more heroes but people trying to pick up the remainings of theire crushed society.

    I would love to again feel like a random guy exploring a world, that is dangerous and much bigger than myself.
    Right now our characters are (at least when we come together as a group) pretty much all-mighty beeings.

    Killing our Characters and throwing them into the shadowlands would have been another opportunity to reset the powerlevel. But as much as i understand it right now, we are not getting in the shadowlands by dying but we travel there somehow. Which means that our powerlevel will probably just spiral up even further.

    I was really exited for the opportunity that destroying azeroth could have had

    I would like the story to take unconventional and extreme twists. I don't care if they kill our characters or whatever. Just do something new.
    Last edited by Fion; 2020-10-06 at 01:46 PM.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    I love FFXIV and all, but its approach to storytelling is VASTLY different than WoW's Because of that, I think treating the player as a "Champion" or "Hero" of their given faction can often times feel very frustrating.

    Now, when I say "players should be treated as Adventurers", what I really mean is that we should be treated as random mercenaries. That's not to say main characters dislike us or anything, but our involvement in our factions should be something that is largely left to our own devices. If I am a Dwarf, it might be IMPLIED that I serve Ironforge and by extension the Alliance (thus justifying the opposing faction treating you with hostility), as an "Adventurer", you would function largely outside of it. You are not a soldier, you did not sign-up for the army, you are an adventurer whose goals are your own to define.

    This serves two purposes:

    First, it makes it more believable that NPC's of the "opposing faction" would be willing to work with you. If the President of the US launched a nuke at China, then it is unlikely a Chinese General would be willing to work with an American General. However, some random American bounty-hunter or something? Possibly. Case in point; it wouldn't make sense of Tyrande to work with a "Champion of the Horde" who could've prevented the burning of Teldrassil. Some random mercenary who couldn't have stopped it even if he wanted? Far more plausible.

    Second, it gives Blizzard the freedom to make more bold decisions on behalf of the factions at play. Sylvanas burning Teldrassil pissed a lot of Horde players off, too because as Warchief of the Horde, they were also culpable for her actions. As Adventurers who were simply "paid to be there, in case they were needed", players would have the freedom to condemn Sylvanas, without feeling like there characters are obliged to follow her blindly.

    It may seem a minor point to stress, but I truly think this distinction between "Champion" and "Adventurer" would just really absolve a lot of the ongoing issues with WoW's storytelling, and how it often affects players and their characters.
    Bit late dude.

    I've killed 3 old gods, a super fire dragon, both Lords of the burning legion (one of them twice), the Lich King, illidan, guldan, cenarius and other wild "gods" oh and also a freaking titan of death....

    At this point if some punk ass npc called me "Adventurer" I'd plant them

  9. #129
    I agree and i hope they fix it after Shadowlands, they have a really good chance to correct it all.

    Firstly they can do a massive time skip, to the point that horde and alliance dont even exist anymore and they can delete the factions and have everyone on the same faction. Secondly all the current characters are pretty much dead and our characters have been long forgotten and are just legends of the past. The story can be smaller in scale and more intimate.

  10. #130
    "You're the sole savior of Azeroth! Pay no mind as I tell that shadow priest next to you the same thing..."

    It's not the best thing for any level of immersion, but that ship has already kind of sailed.

  11. #131
    Our status do not ”Reset” each expansion.

    So your character have more feats of strength than most faction leaders.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Except that we didn't betray Sylvanas. Everythign we did, we kept Sylvanas apprised of and in more than a few instances to go along with it and report back to her. Sylvanas had no reason to imprision us as we were following her orders.
    I recall helping Baine steal Jaina's brother and telling no one. Well maybe as a loyalist, but I didn't tell her... or am I recalling this incorrectly? That undead guy got shot for it, Baine imprisoned and we...?

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    I recall helping Baine steal Jaina's brother and telling no one. Well maybe as a loyalist, but I didn't tell her... or am I recalling this incorrectly? That undead guy got shot for it, Baine imprisoned and we...?
    As a loyalist. Everything you went through, you told Sylvanas about and she told you to go through with it

  14. #134
    Herald of the Titans msdos's Avatar
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    Lowly adventurers... Who can be in any Covenant they see fit at any time, swap all their stuff before any boss, do anything, have all the freedom and power options in the world!
    Yes, sounds very appropriate for common rag tag adventurers, lulll!!!!

  15. #135
    Immortal Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by La View Post
    We always have some item that gives us all our power. And we very often always lose it. So at the end of the day while we do inherently amazing feats, the fact is we didn't really kill Deathwing, we didn't kill the Lich King. So what's the point in being the hero when we're really just the sidekicks to the people with the true power? Borrowed power is boring from a lore perspective if it's a constant.
    Borrowed power had secured a solid place in lore much before it became a thing gameplay-wise. As you correctly pointed out, we wouldn't have killed the LK or DW hadn't it been for Tirion deus ex Fordring or Thrall Sue respectively. We would have gone nowhere in WoD if Grom hadn't changed colours in a utterly unrealistic, cringey af move. The Legion would have crushed us if it wasn't for those OP af artifacts, ditto for BfA, where the only way to actually kill (to the extent he can actually be killed, which is another matter entirely) Tentacle Boi was kamehameha'ing through our necklace.

    It's getting really old at this point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    Lowly adventurers... Who can be in any Covenant they see fit at any time, swap all their stuff before any boss, do anything, have all the freedom and power options in the world!
    Yes, sounds very appropriate for common rag tag adventurers, lulll!!!!
    I think you are purposefully confusing lore with gameplay mechanics

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SkagenRora View Post
    Our status do not ”Reset” each expansion.

    So your character have more feats of strength than most faction leaders.
    And exactly 0 political influence, especially if you are Alliance. It's EXTREMELY jarring.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  16. #136
    Herald of the Titans msdos's Avatar
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    "I think you are purposefully confusing lore with gameplay mechanics"

    So then we switch Covenants outside the game? I'm confused. You still talk to the Covenant leaders and your character opens dialogue with them, so no, there is no confusion. Your character is granted the powers from other in game characters, absolutely zero confusion here.

    Looks like someone is trying to insert words in someone's mouth.
    Last edited by msdos; 2020-10-06 at 08:38 PM.

  17. #137
    Over 9000! Graeham's Avatar
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    I vastly prefer the idea of my character being treated as a powerful adventurer rather than one of the most important individuals in the setting. The latter works far better in single player games and it's a real shame that many MMO's have moved away from that model. Even in single player games, it's a boring ego stroking session in many cases.

  18. #138
    As many have already mentioned, that ship has sailed long ago.
    I personally loved it when vol'jin called me general in WoD. It felt like i was progressing in rank. But ever since legion we have been "THE ONE".

    I started taking myself out of the picture when i think about the story and lore nowadays. I started considering the NPCs joining us on our adventure the heroes of that story. Khadgar led the expedition to WoD, the allied forces of the order halls were the ones that stopped the legion invasion, Illidan led the forces in argus, Wrathion was front and center in the battle with N'zoth. The game always find a way to take away the NPCs from the fight which is understandable as it is a game afterall. But i can also do that in reverse and make it part of THEIR story arcs.

    Another way that supports my head canon would be when we had to sap away the energy from the giant sword. I was there representing my order hall, while other NPCs from the rest of the order halls were there holding the powerful artifact weapons. So i can also remove myself from that equation, or just think of myself as a high ranking member of the order hall

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    Lowly adventurers... Who can be in any Covenant they see fit at any time, swap all their stuff before any boss, do anything, have all the freedom and power options in the world!
    Yes, sounds very appropriate for common rag tag adventurers, lulll!!!!
    Do we have these options? We have next to no agency in regards to story, the bitch-boy/rebell split was the first time we ever could actually chose anything at all and obviously it had zero impact on anything. And as far as powers go, we are confined in arbitary class corsettes as the only people in the whole wide world. I can't even wear a set of leather pants for shits and giggles as a priest, let alone boots! What kind of affliction is that? That's some hardcore curse for sure. The existence of players is kind of a joke if we are honest. It's highly inconsistent at the best of times and downright insulting the rest. Like how any of the "evil" aligned classes would have suffered through Nathanos for a whole campaign is a mystery for the ages, my DK would have torn him to shreds with undead minions and decorated the Queen's Vengence with his guts; if we had any agency that is.
    Last edited by Haidaes; 2020-10-06 at 09:47 PM.
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
    WoW:Shadowlands - Danuser's Divina Commedia?

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    Bit late dude.

    I've killed 3 old gods, a super fire dragon, both Lords of the burning legion (one of them twice), the Lich King, illidan, guldan, cenarius and other wild "gods" oh and also a freaking titan of death....

    At this point if some punk ass npc called me "Adventurer" I'd plant them
    Yup. But the NPC is still going to send you to collect bat guano and get away with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The main function of Mythic mode for most players is to act as a reminder that, compared to that 1%, they suck.

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