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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protean View Post
    It's 2020, we have technology to produce content that is more challenging than "wait around for something to happen". I have better things to do than NOT play the game I want to play. How about you?

    #MakeSkillMatterAgain
    I want rares to be rares again.
    People like you are the ones who make "Rares" into "Walk to spot, kill mob, it respawns instantly"
    Yeah totally a "rare mob"

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greyfang View Post
    Some players prefer content/achievements that reward skill only. Some others prefer achievements where patience is rewarded. IMO good game design is providing content for both kinds of players.
    There has literally never been a time in WoW history when achievements have rewarded skill only.

    The vast majority of achievements require no skill, only doing a thing - i.e. patience or procedural behaviour. Exploration, questing, /love-ing critters, virtually everything to do with any kind of event or festival, and so on.

    Anyone who wants them to "reward skill only" needs to start by asking Blizzard to delete about 90% of achievements. It's an inherently unreasonable and logically untenable position. You cannot hold it and claim it is reasonable. I get that you're not saying it is, but the people claiming they all must be are not being reasonable or logical, nor looking at the game that actually exists.

    I agree that they should do both. They always have before.

    Quote Originally Posted by awadh View Post
    Bullshit. The only acceptable form of RNG is loot RNG, as in, you kill a mob which is in large quantity and respawns very fast in a grind area and hope it drops something you want. The foundation of MMORPG is grind - you kill stuff and see progress happen - see examples: Tibia, Silkroad Online, Metin2, MU Online, all those once wildly popular games. WoW was like that once as well, only later they started going deeper down the bullshit RNG hole in Legion and BFA when they introduced absolutely dogshit fucking crap mechanics like RNGdaries or RNGorruptions or timegated shit like essences where you can't just grind them out and be done with it, but are gated with weekly bullshit.
    Your examples are a bunch of C-grade and D-grade MMOs and K-MMOs? Wtf? Wildly popular? Uh, not in the West buddy.

    You're choosing to ignore all the major and successful MMOs, including all the MMOs that influenced WoW, primarily EverQuest? That's completely bananas.

    All the rest of your stuff is ranting about something that has nothing to do with the subject of this post. I'm not keen on Corruptions either, but that's not what the guy is calling RNG in RNG, and your examples are just totally bizarre.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    That is the achivment. Just beacuse you don't like it doesn't change it.

    Patience is a virtue and so on.

    There are achivment for literally EVERY activity in this game. That there are some very tedious ones is a given.
    I guess paying a monthly fee to stand still and spend 3 hours doing nothing is also a virtue? Or is that what you call scummy predatory behavior?

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    This is simply not true. In WOTLK there was basically nothing of the sort to do. You could ACCELERATE your rate, but the cap on how high your gear could go (and the fact that there were no infinite grind/secondary systems) meant there wasn't a need to do that. You could still reach max power well before the end of a patch cycle without doing anything but raid.

    "But you had to farm consumables!"
    No. I didn't. I got enough gold from clearing raids and it was exclusive enough to be a raider that no one else had gold, so all the overworld lovers farmed all the mats and sold them to raiders.

    Now-a-days, you get a pittance for gold from raids. Consumables also take more mats and are rarer.

    "They take less time" please... Again, spending maybe 1 hour on raid prep a week and then not having anything else to do to maximize potential is nothing compared to the 10-20 hours to clear chores now. Especially when that content is fucking garbage obviously designed to waste my fucking time and pad their metrics. In addition, there is absolutely NO such thing as capping out right now (maybe different in SL, but I doubt it... they still have an infinite grind). So, you could just KEEP clearing garbage 24/7, and you'd be better equipped than someone else of equivalent skill and difficulty cleared.
    Beginning of every tier in wotlk you were pressured valor cap
    Professions were very important
    Yeah raiding didnt get you enough gold to solo buy all your consumables if you were using them consistantly. You needed external sources of gold/previously built bank/some one funneling you mats.

    Not sure what your rant about consumable costs is about because gold is overall more common. Not to mention the fortune that boes go for and selling things like aotc is easier than ever.

    Guess how many hours a week I spent on raid prep outside the first ~6 weeks of the patch? Maybe an hour, 1.5 at most? Did my vision for my cloak upgrade and my M+ DATS IT! Stopped doing WQ's. Didnt do any islands or warfronts all patch. Stopped doing M+ all together months ago even before nzoth was dead. I feel like you are implying there is a grind that there isn't. What used to be valor capping and daily dungeons became doing a few weeks of WQ's and a weekly dungeon. The only "infinite grind" is AP and that shit doesn't matter in the slightest. Once you got all your azerite rings unlocked you could actively avoid getting ap for the rest of the expac and your performance variance would be near 0. Just because some people can and some people CHOOSE to does not mean you HAVE to.

    I'm trying to add up how you get 10-20 hours of weekly chores and I have no clue. Are you walking to WQ's? Are you pvp'ing instead of doing your nzoth dailies? Are you pugging your weekly 15 and failing 3+ times? This implication of "required" time is insane and some top down garbage that people outside the top 25 think it also applies to them.

    Are you really complaining that people who spend MORE time doing end game content get more optimized rewards? WTF? What is the arbitrary number of 5 mans I should have to run to get the perfect M+ gear? How many times do I need to clear the raid before I get all my drops? Some number you determine? Yeah the people who put the time in doing the difficult content should get the edge over people who don't.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    I'm trying to add up how you get 10-20 hours of weekly chores and I have no clue. Are you walking to WQ's? Are you pvp'ing instead of doing your nzoth dailies? Are you pugging your weekly 15 and failing 3+ times? This implication of "required" time is insane and some top down garbage that people outside the top 25 think it also applies to them.
    I agree with most of what you're saying, but Bob, he said 10-20 hours, not 20 hours. You could reasonably argue it's hard to get to 20 hours. But 10? Nah mate. Especially before flying was available in this expansion. Then it's very easy to get to 10.

    I mean, if you're so at the top of the game that you don't need to do anything for money (which you seem to be saying), you've got every rep to Exalted, and are past needing to improve your gear outside raiding and so on, you could get it well below 10. I was there in Cataclysm, for example. But it's not unreasonable to suggest there are 10 hours of chores the game wants you to do.

    I do totally agree with you that a lot of people who aren't in the top 25 raiding guilds have this perverse deal where they act like they are - we used to have a guy on these boards who freely admitted to being in a pretty dubious guild and never really getting past Heroic (at best) raids but acting like that, here, and would defend it to the death (haven't seen him lately), and it's really counter-productive for people to act like that. But the game does love to try and shove chores at you, and then frown if you don't do them.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by cerin616 View Post
    I think something important is being glossed over here and it's rng inside rng

    It's one thing to have a long rare that you need to camp that has a 100% drop

    It's one thing to have rapid chances at a 1% drop

    It's something else to put a low percent on a long camp. That's just bullshit
    Exactly what is wrong with the system. Either one of those would have been fine, but combining them is just stupid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    I want rares to be rares again.
    People like you are the ones who make "Rares" into "Walk to spot, kill mob, it respawns instantly"
    Yeah totally a "rare mob"
    Then make rares have a chance to spawn anywhere on the map so that finding one is truly rare, instead of fixed camp spawns.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Beginning of every tier in wotlk you were pressured valor cap
    No. I never valor cap'd and always still had BIS.

    Professions were very important
    One and done grind for static stats. Otherwise I never bothered with the craftable epix and my guild didn't mandate it.

    Yeah raiding didnt get you enough gold to solo buy all your consumables if you were using them consistantly. You needed external sources of gold/previously built bank/some one funneling you mats.
    Off your rocker. I never once farmed for consumables. Bought all the mats off the AH and traded them to our guild herb for free crafting. Was too easy. By the time Ulduar hit, I had flying by all the extra gold I still had sitting around.

    Not sure what your rant about consumable costs is about because gold is overall more common. Not to mention the fortune that boes go for and selling things like aotc is easier than ever.
    It's only more common and plentiful for people that actually play the game (which I didn't, because everything outside of raiding and some pvp every now and then sucks dick). However, consumables were a huge step backwards compared to legion. Blood pots were ret's strongest option and were so stupid plentiful it was amazing.

    Guess how many hours a week I spent on raid prep outside the first ~6 weeks of the patch? Maybe an hour, 1.5 at most?
    Something tells me you didn't get orange parses with that level of effort, which is my entire focus of the game.

    CHOOSE to does not mean you HAVE to.
    Pretty sure my entire thing this whole time ahs been "required TO BE COMPETITIVE". Competitive to me is 95th percentile+.

    This implication of "required" time is insane and some top down garbage that people outside the top 25 think it also applies to them.
    "Hurr durr your goals are irrelevant if you're not full on 100% committed"

    Nah, miss me with that shit.

    Let me put it to you like this. If everyone were naked and had 0 gear and I could get 99th percentile, I DESERVE to get 99th percentile in my mind.

    Are you really complaining that people who spend MORE time doing end game content get more optimized rewards? WTF? What is the arbitrary number of 5 mans I should have to run to get the perfect M+ gear? How many times do I need to clear the raid before I get all my drops? Some number you determine? Yeah the people who put the time in doing the difficult content should get the edge over people who don't.
    Repeating the same "difficult scripted content" 100 times shouldn't get you shit over someone else who also does that same level of content. It's a bar. You meet the bar once, you're good. Now, if they started tying drops to parses or kill timers so you ACTUALLY had to prove you're better than someone else, sure, but they don't do that. They just huck RNG at it so you have to no-lyfe repeat the same shit, without needing to do it better, to get another casino lever pull.

    Look at it like this: time in is irrelevant. In normal sports, time in is just some form of indicator of the thing that really matters: skill. Wow should work the same.

    If I can be roger federer at tennis playing 1 minute a week versus someone else that has to practice 6 days a week, 6 hours at a time, then all that time means is that person sucks compared to me and has to work way harder to be as good. Time doesn't necessarily mean shit in actual real life competitions.
    Last edited by BeepBoo; 2020-10-05 at 06:29 PM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Than play other games and do not whine?
    Yeah how dare he criticize the game, negative feedback should be banworthy!

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    This is basically a rageout over Mecha-Done
    You lasted longer than I did. 2 months of never getting 1 of the last 3 little action figures i needed and I quit that achieve.
    If what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Then I should be a god by now.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    There has literally never been a time in WoW history when achievements have rewarded skill only.

    The vast majority of achievements require no skill, only doing a thing - i.e. patience or procedural behaviour. Exploration, questing, /love-ing critters, virtually everything to do with any kind of event or festival, and so on.

    Anyone who wants them to "reward skill only" needs to start by asking Blizzard to delete about 90% of achievements. It's an inherently unreasonable and logically untenable position. You cannot hold it and claim it is reasonable. I get that you're not saying it is, but the people claiming they all must be are not being reasonable or logical, nor looking at the game that actually exists.

    I agree that they should do both. They always have before.



    Your examples are a bunch of C-grade and D-grade MMOs and K-MMOs? Wtf? Wildly popular? Uh, not in the West buddy.

    You're choosing to ignore all the major and successful MMOs, including all the MMOs that influenced WoW, primarily EverQuest? That's completely bananas.

    All the rest of your stuff is ranting about something that has nothing to do with the subject of this post. I'm not keen on Corruptions either, but that's not what the guy is calling RNG in RNG, and your examples are just totally bizarre.
    How is that not RNG in RNG? You first kill a boss, then you hope it drops your desired piece of loot, then you hope it corrupts, and then you hope the corruption is the one you want and you hope it's (usually) of the max corruption tier level. That is, let's see, RNG in RNG in RNG in RNG. Add a socket on top of that and you have 5 layers of RNG. It's even worse than OP's example, only thing better is that you don't have to wait for the raid boss to spawn every few hours or days. Bizarre indeed. Thankfully 3 of those layers are now gone thanks to a timegated way of guaranteeing those layers via a corruption vessel and socket adder. Are we playing a different version of WoW, or what's up?

    As far as those MMOs are concerned - well yeah fucking DUH they might've not been popular in the US, who would've thought that the world is more than the US, huh? I've never heard of EverQuest until I started playing WoW in WOTLK. I only know what was popular in Europe, since that's where I'm from and games I've listed here were popular in Europe so I've listed those as an example. Doesn't matter if they were C/D grade by US taste standards. A few of them came from Asia because Asia was like the grind paradise for MMOs, like Silkroad or MU Online, both Korean-made grindfests. Most of those games are now dead or dying due to old age. They came before or shortly after WoW. They were F2P and started dying as soon as they introduced P2W elements.

    A lot if not most MMOs didn't have obscene amounts of RNG like WoW had in Legion and has in BFA. They've come to their sense with Shadowlands by removing all that bullshit and going back to when the game was good - letting loot be loot and toning down the loot pińata.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by awadh View Post
    How is that not RNG in RNG? You first kill a boss, then you hope it drops your desired piece of loot, then you hope it corrupts, and then you hope the corruption is the one you want and you hope it's (usually) of the max corruption tier level. That is, let's see, RNG in RNG in RNG in RNG. Add a socket on top of that and you have 5 layers of RNG. It's even worse than OP's example, only thing better is that you don't have to wait for the raid boss to spawn every few hours or days. Bizarre indeed. Thankfully 3 of those layers are now gone thanks to a timegated way of guaranteeing those layers via a corruption vessel and socket adder. Are we playing a different version of WoW, or what's up?
    Have you even read what thread you're posting in, mate?

    We're discussing camping mobs, not whether raid loot is Corrupted. Wtf?

    Quote Originally Posted by awadh View Post
    As far as those MMOs are concerned - well yeah fucking DUH they might've not been popular in the US, who would've thought that the world is more than the US, huh? I've never heard of EverQuest until I started playing WoW in WOTLK. I only know what was popular in Europe, since that's where I'm from and games I've listed here were popular in Europe so I've listed those as an example. Doesn't matter if they were C/D grade by US taste standards. A few of them came from Asia because Asia was like the grind paradise for MMOs, like Silkroad or MU Online, both Korean-made grindfests. Most of those games are now dead or dying due to old age. They came before or shortly after WoW. They were F2P and started dying as soon as they introduced P2W elements.
    Asia didn't invent MMOs and didn't popularize MMOs in the West, and WoW isn't derived from Asian MMOs. So you being really ignorant about that to the point where you didn't know about EQ (LOL!) and parading your ignorance around isn't very helpful.

    And I said "The West", not "America". I'm not American, thanks. Those RPGs were not popular in THE WEST. I.e. North America, nor any part of Europe outside maybe Central and Eastern Europe, and I suspect even in those they were behind stuff like RuneQuest.

    As I said, MMOs as we know them derive from EQ. Pretty much every major MMO of the last 15 years which wasn't a K-MMO (there are a handful of distinctive exceptions, but I think all of them started before WoW), and even some K-MMOs, are EverQuest-derivatives. WoW certainly is, as are FFXIV, GW2, and ESO.

    Quote Originally Posted by awadh View Post
    A lot if not most MMOs didn't have obscene amounts of RNG like WoW had in Legion and has in BFA. They've come to their sense with Shadowlands by removing all that bullshit and going back to when the game was good - letting loot be loot and toning down the loot pińata.
    Bollocks they didn't, dude. I've been playing MMOs since 1999. MMOs have had tons of RNG for that whole time, just not always in that Diablo-esque way where the loot itself is randomized.

    But that's not what this thread is about - this thread is about a dude who is mad because he camps a mob and it doesn't drop the thing he wants. That's been something that has been present in MMOs since day 1.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Protean View Post
    I guess paying a monthly fee to stand still and spend 3 hours doing nothing is also a virtue? Or is that what you call scummy predatory behavior?
    You don't have to do it. You are paying a monthly fee to wait for a rare spawn because you want worthless virtual points that have no meaning outside of the game. This isn't a case of everything requiring super rare mobs. Or a required progression being tied to a super rare mob. It is an optional achievement that is there for people that want to do that carrot on a stick. Don't do it.

    There is nothing wrong with an occasional spawn camp being used in games.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    Have you even read what thread you're posting in, mate?

    We're discussing camping mobs, not whether raid loot is Corrupted. Wtf?
    We're discussing obscene layers of RNG and camping mobs for achievements. Still layers of RNG nonetheless, especially if you consider the fact that some spawns have random spawn times. OP asked a question whether it's reduced in Shadowlands and the answer is yes. In one aspect of RNG at least - that being loot, and thank fucking god for that. Having played WoW from WOTLK almost non stop I was getting ready to quit if Shadowlands was looking like another Legion or BFA. The amount of RNG these two expansions had was just getting too much to the point of actually wanting to quit for the first time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    Asia didn't invent MMOs and didn't popularize MMOs in the West, and WoW isn't derived from Asian MMOs. So you being really ignorant about that to the point where you didn't know about EQ (LOL!) and parading your ignorance around isn't very helpful.
    Did you know Tibia or Lineage? Both older than EQ. If you didn't, does that make you ignorant? No, it doesn't, just means it wasn't as popular where you live compared to where I live. Same story with me and EQ.

    See, I don't know EverQuest because it just wasn't that popular where I lived but I know and have played Ultima Online, Lineage or Tibia. All of them older than EverQuest and have had different priorities/gameplay directions that might've contributed to their differing popularities in regions throughout the world. It's as simple as that. I don't know what you're trying to deny here when it's that simple - different regions have people of different mentalities and tastes/preferences. Ignorance has nothing to do with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    But that's not what this thread is about - this thread is about a dude who is mad because he camps a mob and it doesn't drop the thing he wants. That's been something that has been present in MMOs since day 1.
    Not in the MMOs that I played. Those had tons of fast respawning mobs walking around that you were mindlessly killing to get a drop. That's what I am accustomed to and that's why my expectations for WoW are different - I prefer grinding and being done with the objective instead of waiting for a lucky spawn then praying for the drop. WoW at least initially had the added bonus of accumulating progress during the grind so that I was getting closer and closer towards my goal and eventually reached that goal - so we knew that a grind for X could take a month and then you were done with it rather than hoping for a drop, then that drop having correct properties spread across many layers, all being random as well, so you could potentially not see your drop in two months or more depending on your luck. They went overboard with that shit in BFA.

    MoP was perfect - you dropped gear that had a predefined amount of sockets and you could upgrade that gear by grinding tokens that were a guaranteed drop in the Timeless Isle for two ilvl upgrades in increments of 5. You had absolute control over your loot. Got a shit piece? You could reforge it to salvage it to a degree. Gear had guaranteed sockets back then so you could also fill the missing stat with those. All of Legion and BFA however? Random titanforging up to 25 fucking item levels and sockets were also random as well. Only recently in 8.3 they allowed you to add sockets onto items only after people started complaining that it's enough RNG already, but they also added a twist - you couldn't grind it like you could in MoP, instead, they timegated the acquisition of said currency.
    Last edited by awadh; 2020-10-05 at 07:32 PM.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by awadh View Post
    We're discussing obscene layers of RNG and camping mobs for achievements. Still layers of RNG nonetheless, especially if you consider the fact that some spawns have random spawn times. OP asked a question whether it's reduced in Shadowlands and the answer is yes. In one aspect of RNG at least - that being loot, and thank fucking god for that. Having played WoW from WOTLK almost non stop I was getting ready to quit if Shadowlands was looking like another Legion or BFA. The amount of RNG these two expansions had was just getting too much to the point of actually wanting to quit for the first time.
    Thank you for catching up on what the thread is about.

    Quote Originally Posted by awadh View Post
    Did you know Tibia or Lineage? Both older than EQ. If you didn't, does that make you ignorant? No, it doesn't, just means it wasn't as popular where you live compared to where I live. Same story with me and EQ.
    Yeah, I did know them. Are you actually fucking kidding? Like fucking seriously asking me if I "know Lineage"? Like, I'm 42, what do you think. Obviously I fucking know Lineage. But it was minor-as-fuck in the West, and wasn't even well-known here until not long before WoW came out. Tibia was obscure-AF and I had to look it up to remind myself, but I was aware of it at the time.

    Sorry lol bit of a rant there but yes is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by awadh View Post
    See, I don't know EverQuest because it just wasn't that popular where I lived but I know and have played Ultima Online, Lineage or Tibia. All of them older than EverQuest and have had different priorities/gameplay directions that might've contributed to their differing popularities in regions throughout the world. It's as simple as that. I don't know what you're trying to deny here when it's that simple - different regions have people of different mentalities and tastes/preferences. Ignorance has nothing to do with it.
    I think ignorance - or "not knowing" if you want a more polite term, is to do with it, actually, because I was aware that most the games you mentioned EXISTED at least, and basically what they were. I did play UO a bit but I don't count it because my brother was the main person playing it.

    They weren't popular here, and they didn't influence WoW's design (indeed one of them was post-WoW!), but I knew about them. Not knowing about EQ is pretty wild. It was huge - bigger than WoW was on year 1. It wasn't until like year 2 that WoW overtook it (IIRC - someone may have better figures).
    Last edited by Eurhetemec; 2020-10-05 at 07:36 PM.

  15. #55
    In these "completionist"-type achievements, the achievement should NOT require 100% completion. Like 90-95% would be fine.
    Like 5 out of 6 vinyls gets you the achievement. Phew, was that so hard?

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by awadh View Post
    How is that not RNG in RNG? You first kill a boss, then you hope it drops your desired piece of loot, then you hope it corrupts, and then you hope the corruption is the one you want and you hope it's (usually) of the max corruption tier level. That is, let's see, RNG in RNG in RNG in RNG.
    Which simplifies to just RNG. The number of levels doesn't actually matter, only the chance of a "good" outcome, and that can be set to the same regardless of how many stages there are.

    Would you rather have a 0.1% drop chance, or a 10% chance for the mob to spawn, with a 10% chance of your item to drop and a 10% chance to be the correct version? Trick question. It's 0.1% drop chance either way.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Which simplifies to just RNG. The number of levels doesn't actually matter, only the chance of a "good" outcome, and that can be set to the same regardless of how many stages there are.

    Would you rather have a 0.1% drop chance, or a 10% chance for the mob to spawn, with a 10% chance of your item to drop and a 10% chance to be the correct version? Trick question. It's 0.1% drop chance either way.
    That's not how probability works.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    No. I never valor cap'd and always still had BIS.

    One and done grind for static stats. Otherwise I never bothered with the craftable epix and my guild didn't mandate it.

    Off your rocker. I never once farmed for consumables. Bought all the mats off the AH and traded them to our guild herb for free crafting. Was too easy. By the time Ulduar hit, I had flying by all the extra gold I still had sitting around.

    It's only more common and plentiful for people that actually play the game (which I didn't, because everything outside of raiding and some pvp every now and then sucks dick). However, consumables were a huge step backwards compared to legion. Blood pots were ret's strongest option and were so stupid plentiful it was amazing.


    Something tells me you didn't get orange parses with that level of effort, which is my entire focus of the game.


    Pretty sure my entire thing this whole time ahs been "required TO BE COMPETITIVE". Competitive to me is 95th percentile+.

    "Hurr durr your goals are irrelevant if you're not full on 100% committed"

    Nah, miss me with that shit.

    Let me put it to you like this. If everyone were naked and had 0 gear and I could get 99th percentile, I DESERVE to get 99th percentile in my mind.

    Repeating the same "difficult scripted content" 100 times shouldn't get you shit over someone else who also does that same level of content. It's a bar. You meet the bar once, you're good. Now, if they started tying drops to parses or kill timers so you ACTUALLY had to prove you're better than someone else, sure, but they don't do that. They just huck RNG at it so you have to no-lyfe repeat the same shit, without needing to do it better, to get another casino lever pull.

    Look at it like this: time in is irrelevant. In normal sports, time in is just some form of indicator of the thing that really matters: skill. Wow should work the same.

    If I can be roger federer at tennis playing 1 minute a week versus someone else that has to practice 6 days a week, 6 hours at a time, then all that time means is that person sucks compared to me and has to work way harder to be as good. Time doesn't necessarily mean shit in actual real life competitions.
    Your entire argument is complaining about hours needed to min/max and then you say o well I didn't so that doesn't count kekw. You ended the tier in bis cool but if you wanted 100% chance at your tier pieces early you needed to cap.

    Random fluff about types of pots for ret ok while not addressing that by raiding you can make a ton of gold in the current system #deflecting

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...lganis/chibob# theres me, where is you?

    uhh yeah and if you play you will be 99th percentile just by being consistent at your rotation assuming your raids strat allows you to reach that parse. There has been and always will be variance in parsing, corruption is just the new trinket procs and add to the variance (im not defending corruption as a good system just saying its the same type of variance).

    Titanforging and corruption are gone in shadowlands and you don't see me complaining about it so repeating content is less rewarding but farming for better itemized gear is still a thing and is 100% fine. The whole "scripted content" is a tired AF argument, players change, comps change, affixes change and regardless of what you call it... +15s are high end content. There is a reason boosters have made millions and millions of gold selling carries. By no means do you need to no life any of this content to be competitive... to be number 1 probably but people will always be willing to go the extra mile for that sweet #1 and if thats how they wanna do it why should I stop them?

    Your sports analogy makes like 0 sense because all professionals practice a ton. Even true prodigies at things don't sit at the piano for the first time and bust out a Mozart. And why are you even dragging RL into this? The reward system mirrors hierarchical structures we see in real life, better players and players that practice more both get better results and a talented player that ALSO practices a ton is most likely to see the best results.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Random fluff about types of pots for ret ok while not addressing that by raiding you can make a ton of gold in the current system #deflecting
    Deflecting? I'm not the raid leader and I never get a cut of any carries brought in. I also haven't gotten a good BOE that sells for metric tons, and besides... they don't drop enough to offset the losses you get throughout the time leading up to them.


    nonexistent breh. I stopped playing almost a year ago. Corruptions are fucking dumb.

    uhh yeah and if you play you will be 99th percentile just by being consistent at your rotation assuming your raids strat allows you to reach that parse.
    False, but keep assuming that. however, I will say it's getting easier to do because they're reducing the APMs so much. RIP twitchty 100apm rotations.

    There has been and always will be variance in parsing, corruption is just the new trinket procs and add to the variance (im not defending corruption as a good system just saying its the same type of variance).
    Point is that variance has been more influenced by skill than it currently is at other points in the game's history. Gear has an UNPRECEDENTED amount of influence on your performance currently due to corruptions.

    Titanforging and corruption are gone in shadowlands and you don't see me complaining about it so repeating content is less rewarding but farming for better itemized gear is still a thing and is 100% fine.
    Disagree. Also, we have yet to see what type of dumb shit they add into SL. Regardless, I'm not coming back, so it really doesn't matter to me what they do.


    thats how they wanna do it why should I stop them?
    because mechanical advantages shouldn't exist in competitive environments.

    Your sports analogy makes like 0 sense because all professionals practice a ton.
    My sports analogy makes perfect sense. Roger federer doesn't practice that much. he avidly says he hates practice over live games. Besides that, no one in athletics ever randomly got new mechanical advantages by just doing the same old shit they always had.

    What they get from practice is skill.

    What you get from wow's version of farming isn't skill, it's gear.

    Imagine if someone like lebron got to wear a jet pack or had some shoes that mechanically allowed him to dunk farther than other players. That is what gear discrepancy in wow is. It's dumb. Fucking give us raid templates already and I'll quit bitching (however... we all know they wouldn't use the tool properly even if they DID implement it; look at pvp templates and of often they didn't get touched, despite pvp being horrible in legion).

    I digress. There is a certain amount of bullshit I'm willing to accept to get BIS. That level existed back in wotlk and I want it to return to modern wow. Any argument you make won't change that fact that it was easier back in the day, and thus you won't change my mind as to if current wow is garbage by comparison thanks to all this RNG on RNG.
    Last edited by BeepBoo; 2020-10-05 at 08:32 PM.

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