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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    I’m not reading something about classic and vanilla when I’m fucking talking about tbc. You brought up classic and vanilla like a moron when that wasn’t what I was talking about and tried to somehow make a connection between the two. There isn’t.



    Obviously it’s tough to find the point when you have a learning disability. The poster I was originally talking to before you butted in like a child, was talking about how much better players are today and how everything will be one shot by everyone even lfr level players. I told him, the only reason they are ‘better’ is because of the past knowledge we have, if you take all of that away they aren’t just going to magically one or two shot every boss.

    Also to go back to the point where you said “no one is saying muru won’t be one shot with no knowledge”, yes, the guy I was fucking talking to was which was who I was responding to until you butted in without reading a single damn thing.
    Again if you'd bother to read. The question in the link is "If things like Vashj would die faster". The answer is "yes, significantly faster". Players sucked. Is Vashj TBC to you? Is wotlk after TBC to you? I was never talking about only classic. You were the one who started talking about classic mechanics, I answered to them and now they don't matter? Why did you even mention them?

    I don't care if he said Muru will be one shot. You said players aren't much better now than they were back then which just isn't true. "If someone were to walk into these fights today, with literal 0 knowledge on how to do it it would take a long time" is what you said.
    It seems like you don't agree with yourself anymore. Since it's not the boss knowledge anymore, but knowledge about items, stats and characters. So my job here is done clearing the mistake. Of course people who have never played the game will have difficulty.
    Last edited by kukkamies; 2020-10-09 at 12:27 PM.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by kukkamies View Post
    Again if you'd bother to read. The question in the link is "If things like Vashj would die faster". The answer is "yes, significantly faster". Players sucked. Is Vashj TBC to you? Is wotlk after TBC to you? I was never talking about only classic. You were the one who started talking about classic mechanics, I answered to them and now they don't matter? Why did you even mention them?
    are you brain damaged? I AM NOT DISCUSSING YOUR LINK NOR IS YOUR LINK RELEVANT. Do you understand that yet? All of my points were discussing something another poster said, then you butted in. If you want to get context the scroll up and read those. Whatever you are linking me is COMPLETELY irrelevant to my points. Do you get it?

    Also I never said players aren’t better now wtf are you on about? Is this why you’re arguing with me over fucking things that aren’t relevant to what I said because you think I said this?

    Newsflash, I didn’t say that nor even imply it.

    Here honey let me just give you one piece of advice before you embarrass yourself like this again. If you see two people arguing, either stay out of it, or read their entire argument before you butt in so something like this doesn’t happen where you don’t even fucking know what I said or what I was arguing for.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    are you brain damaged? I AM NOT DISCUSSING YOUR LINK NOR IS YOUR LINK RELEVANT. Do you understand that yet? All of my points were discussing something another poster said, then you butted in. If you want to get context the scroll up and read those. Whatever you are linking me is COMPLETELY irrelevant to my points. Do you get it?

    Also I never said players aren’t better now wtf are you on about? Is this why you’re arguing with me over fucking things that aren’t relevant to what I said because you think I said this?

    Newsflash, I didn’t say that nor even imply it.

    Here honey let me just give you one piece of advice before you embarrass yourself like this again. If you see two people arguing, either stay out of it, or read their entire argument before you butt in so something like this doesn’t happen where you don’t even fucking know what I said or what I was arguing for.
    Do you need a reminder of what you were talking about. Here are your own words:
    "If someone were to walk into these fights(Vashj etc...) today, with literal 0 knowledge on how to do it, it would take them a long time to down them". And an answer to "If things like Vashj would die faster today" is completely irrelevent
    You said "they (current raiders) are ‘better’ is because of the past knowledge we have" And now you say it's not about knowledge But are just straight up better
    And your knowledge was: "I'm not talking about a group of players who know exactly how the fight goes and watches a video from someone who has been fighting those fights for 10 years spelling it out for them, I'm saying going in completely blind it would take them a LONG time to figure out and accomplish."
    And what you now say knowledge is: stats, gear, characters . Not about boss mechanics

    Thanks for making my weekend

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by kukkamies View Post
    Do you need a reminder of what you were talking about. Here are your own words:
    "If someone were to walk into these fights(Vashj etc...) today, with literal 0 knowledge on how to do it, it would take them a long time to down them". And an answer to "If things like Vashj would die faster today" is completely irrelevent
    You said "they (current raiders) are ‘better’ is because of the past knowledge we have" And now you say it's not about knowledge But are just straight up better
    And your knowledge was: "I'm not talking about a group of players who know exactly how the fight goes and watches a video from someone who has been fighting those fights for 10 years spelling it out for them, I'm saying going in completely blind it would take them a LONG time to figure out and accomplish."
    And what you now say knowledge is: stats, gear, characters . Not about boss mechanics

    Thanks for making my weekend
    Yes you are taking context of multiple thoughts going at once and applying it to fit this narrative that I think players aren't overall better at the game which is nonsense and it's clear you are just using these as confirmation bias for your 'theory' of something I LITERALLY never said.

    Yes, players are better today, a major MAJOR part of that is the knowledge we have of the game. Is that seriously a surprise to you? Did I at any point in there say "It would take them just as long to down it today with no knowledge as it took them to down it back then"? Did I say this? Because if I said something like this then it would make more sense for your theory.

    I'll walk you through this because it's clear you are struggling here.

    I first pointed out that people are better at this game because of knowledge of the game. This is 100% obvious and shouldn't even be questioned.

    Look at fortnite for example, look at the average player in fortnite today and compare them to the average player in season one. They are leaps and bounds ahead of that season one player. Why? Is it because people are just so much better at video games today they rocketed forward that much? Maybe, but the biggest thing is that they understand the game better, they know the meta, they have the muscle memory building down so well it's basically nothing to them.

    Same goes for wow. We understand the game better, especially because it's been out for so long. We have guides on min/maxing raid comps for that expansion and gearing that it's to a point where we could probably double the damage output. Wow isn't a mechanically difficult game, it's all about the knowledge of fights, gear, raid comps, etc that pushes you to that point (pve specifically).

    Now that brings me to my other point, and I really need you to follow here with what I just said in mind.

    Will bosses be one shot and rolled by random players who haven't played the game (TBC SPECIFICALLY DON'T BRING UP CLASSIC AGAIN). No, I don't believe they will. I believe if someone walks into tbc with no knowledge of the expansion, no knowledge of the fights, and goes in completely blind, yes, they are going to take quite a long time to down some of these bosses.

    NOW DOES THAT MEAN THAT PLAYERS WILL TAKE LONGER OR AS LONG AS THE PLAYERS BACK THEN? No. This is where you are implying what I'm saying. I never said that. I said it is going to take them much longer to down these fights and complete them compared to what this random person saying it will be one shot by LFR pugs.

    Here I'll use classic one time as a comparison because I know you loved to keep going back to it. Go into classic right now, find a pug for AQ40 where people haven't done the fights... I guarantee you are sitting in there for 4 hours or more. This is common freakin sense to everyone who has played any iteration of this recently and it honestly should come to no surprise to anyone who has played wow for years.... No lfr raid is walking into a raid like ssc or sunwell and one shotting every boss or "just 20 minutes behind top raiders overall" is not realistic at all.

    Also, your post is irrelevant to what I was saying because you didn't even understand what I was arguing against or for my guy, you linked me an article about a guy telling us how easy the content is because of all the knowledge we have, wow my guy such relevance much understanding A+ grade for you.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Only the bleeding edge guilds did hardmode, so only them "improved"
    No that's not true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    only some of the hardmode were actually harder than un-nerfed TBC content.
    Ulduar hardmode was way harder than anything in TBC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Not even going to speak of the 5-men, which were pure joke.
    I was only referring to raiding anyway.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisnumbers View Post
    No that's not true.

    Ulduar hardmode was way harder than anything in TBC.

    I was only referring to raiding anyway.
    Ulduar hardmode as a whole or just a couple bosses? Just curious... it's sort of hard to gauge difficulty between the two imo just because of what we know today. If we are going by what was harder for people back then, I would honestly argue pre-nerf tbc raids were harder than most hardmode fights (algalon yogg+0 and maybe a couple more excluded).

    But if we are going by today's standards idk honestly. I know looking back at things can be weird obviously seeing as how almost noone got into nax back then but now everyone and their dog will clear it this time around.... But there were only 5 guilds who killed pre-nerf muru. Again, it obviously won't be THAT bad by today's standards but it's just sort of hard to specifically say X is harder than Y.

  7. #147
    The only really hard "hard modes" in Ulduar were Firefighter and Yogg+0 (and +1 relative to the other boss fights), right?

    Source: My casual guild did all of them apart from those 2 (albeit some only on 10 man) and we were really not very good at all.
    Last edited by AeneasBK; 2020-10-09 at 02:21 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    We can't pass the Magna Carta! That's socialism!
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopymonster View Post
    How can you NOT give anything a gun? Freedom? Liberty? Where are your Freeberties?

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    The only really hard "hard modes" in Ulduar were Firefighter and Yogg+0 (and +1 relative to the other boss fights), right?

    Source: My casual guild did all of them apart from those 2 (albeit some only on 10 man) and we were really not very good at all.
    I haven't played pve wotlk in awhile (did on some p servers a couple years ago) and from what I remember yes, firefighter was a big issue for a lot of people, yogg 0 was really tough and algalon was also sort of a bitch (just because of everything you had to do leading up to him while also having the fight be a limited time as well).

    Flame leviathon's hardmode was basically done by every guild and their dog half way through ulduar being out

    Next two bosses had no hardmodes just achieves which were easy

    The robot had a hardmode but it was basically just a dps check, wasn't that hard at all.

    Ironcouncil was also a dps race basically that could be cheesed with some nice taunts from a dps war/dk from across the room

    Kologarn had no hardmode just achievs which were easy

    Hodirs hardmode was also just a dps race it didn't really change much of the fight mechanics

    Thorum was also just a check to see how well you could push through the arena and engage the fight sooner.

    Freya's I remember being really fun with the hardmode, for the life of me I can't remember how hard it was I just remember it made the fight way more fun.

    Mimiron... I think we all know mimiron jesus christ

    General was the spawning of that one ghost looking add, which again, was basically just a dps check it didn't really change too much of the fight outside of you being more mana conservative.

    And yogg + 0 was tough obviously.

  9. #149
    Herald of the Titans Will's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    there were very few actual nerfs actualy,it was mostly bug fixes,and there is no way they will launch tbc with attunements removed or keys be honored,even in classic they stalled many features and aspects of the game,they may even release the pre buffed hc and kara gear
    (PS: anyone who quotes me, for the love of god please don't quote the entire post. Snip it.)

    I played TBC. There were a ton of nerfs, in addition to lots of QoL changes. Most attunements got removed later on, mounts at 30, mount costs lowered, 20-60 made MUCH quicker, lots of elite areas in old world got de-classifed into normal, and whack-tons of dungeon and raid nerfs throughout TBC. I know what I'm talking about.

    2.0.10
    Creatures in Tempest Keep:Botanica, Tempest Keep: Mechanar, and Tempest Keep:Arcatraz no longer respawn as rapidly.
    Shadow Labyrinth
    Reduced the chance of a Cabal Assassin ambush.
    Tempest Keep: Arcatraz
    Protean Spawn now deal less damage.
    The damage dealt by Wrath-Scryer Soccothrates' "Immolation" and "Knock Away" abilities has been reduced.
    Tempest Keep: Botanica
    Sunseeker Gene-Splicer's Death and Decay now deals significantly less damage and casts less frequently.
    Mutate Fleshlashers now deal less melee damage.
    Mutate Horrors and Fear-Shriekers now have less health.
    Sunseeker Researchers will now cast shocks less frequently.
    The Blue Seedlings in the High Botanist Freywinn encounter now slow players instead of immobilizing them.
    High Botanist Freywinn will now plant seedlings at a slightly reduced rate.
    Karazhan
    Maiden of Virtue's "Holy Wrath" has been slightly retuned to try and allow additional melee attackers to be used against her.
    Midnight is no longer susceptible to Bleed effects, since he's a skeletal horse.
    Nightbane's Restless Skeletons are now immune to non-holy magical damage.
    Restless Skeletons no longer have immolation.
    Nightbane's Bone Shard Spray can no longer be interrupted by using an immunity effect.
    Restless Skeletons will now deal more melee damage.

    2.1.0
    All 25 man raid bosses who drop set tokens will now drop an additional token.
    Hellfire Citadel:Ramparts
    Bonechewer Destroyers now has a 2 second melee round time and will no longer Knock Away and wipe the target's threat on Heroic.
    Bonechewer Evokers now attack slower.
    Bleeding Hollow Scryer's Fear extended the repeat cooldown so the ability will happen less frequently.
    Bonechewer Raveners on Heroic, damage has been reduced and will now attack slower.
    The Liquid Fire damage has been significantly reduced in Heroic difficulty.
    Omor the Unscarred's Treacherous Bane ability damage has also been reduced in Heroic.
    Added a 2 second cast time to Omor the Unscarred's Treacherous Aura and Treacherous Bane abilities.
    Nazan now has a slight delay before fireballing after breathing fire while landed.
    Hellfire Citadel: Blood Furnace
    Felguard Annihilators and Felguard Brutes will now do less damage.
    Hellfire Citadel: Magtheridon's Lair
    Hellfire Warders have been significantly reduced in difficulty.
    Hellfire Channeler's Shadow Bolt Volley has been made much more easy to interrupt.
    The melee damage of Burning Abyssals has been significantly reduced.
    Hellfire Citadel: Shattered Halls
    Shattered Hand Reavers will do less damage in Heroic difficulty.
    The Uppercut used by the Shattered Hand Reaver now has a smaller combat range.
    Rabid Warhounds on Heroic will now do less damage.
    Warbringer O'mrogg now applies a smaller amount of threat to the target of his Beatdown ability
    Coilfang: The Slave Pens
    Rokmar the Crackler will now only apply Grievous Wound to his current target.
    The 2 Myrmidon, 1 Sorceress, 1 Slavehandler pull has been changed to a 2 Myrmidon pull.
    Coilfang: The Underbog
    Underbat in Heroic difficulty damage has been reduced.
    Underbog Lurker in Heroic difficulty damage has been reduced.
    Underbog Lurkers will now have a slight delay before using the Coral Cut ability on a target.
    Lykul Wasp and Lykul Stinger melee damage has been reduced.
    Underbog Lords have had their damage reduced.
    The Black Stalker's Spore Strider Summon should happen at more regular intervals and be less random.
    Coilfang: Steamvault
    Steam Surger damage damage has been significantly reduced.
    Tidal Surger damage has been slightly reduced in Heroic difficulty.
    The Bog Overlord's Trample has been changed to be a 50 yard radius effect, but now does decreased damage and will be used less frequently.
    Coilfang Siren's Fear now has a 1 second cast time and no longer removes all threat from feared players.
    Coilfang: Serpentshrine Cavern
    The creatures that lead up to Hydross the Unstable and creatures at the six pumping stations are now on a 2 hour respawn instead of 45 minutes.
    Slight changes on most creatures have been made including: aggro range changed to 30 yards detect, 15 yard call for help and hitpoints reduced.
    Slightly reduced the number of creatures from the cavern entrance.
    Modified the patrol patterns of some of the murlocs in Morogrim's room to make them easier to pull.
    Non-boss creatures in Serpentshrine will now no longer respawn if the nearby boss has been killed.
    Fixed an issue with Hydross where you would kill him and he would instead change into his alternate form with 1 health.
    The Mark of Hydross and Mark of Corruption debuffs can now affect the increases of the nature or frost damage taken up to 500%.
    Refreshing Mist now correctly restores health.
    Fixed an exploit related to Leotheras' Consuming Madness spell.
    Lady Vashj can no longer use the ability Persuasion.
    Toxic Spores no longer deal damage upon impact.
    Tidewalker Lurkers no longer call for help from other nearby creatures.
    Greyheart Technicians are now much easier to kill, and deal less damage.
    Coilfang Priestesses may now be polymorphed.
    Coilfang Priestess' Holy Fire spell now deals Holy damage, and the damage dealt by the spell has been lowered.
    Morogrim Tidewalker's Earthquake no longer obeys line of sight restrictions
    Creatures in the Serpentshrine now have a chance to drop Coilfang Armaments.
    Hydross the Unstable's Vile Sludge spell will no longer hit pets.
    Hydross the Unstable's melee damage has been reduced.
    The spawns of Hydross have fewer hit points.
    Scalding Water damage has been decreased.
    Leotheras the Blind's Chaos Blast radius has been significantly reduced, which will allow additional melee to damage Leotheras while he is in metamorphosis form.
    Leotheras the Blind will now also spend less time whirlwinding before shifting into his metamorphosis form.
    Leotheras the Blind's hit points have been reduced.
    Inner Demons are now slightly easier to kill and deal less damage.
    Serpentshrine Lurkers are now banishable and fearable, and no longer create mushrooms so quickly.
    Hydross the Unstable's hit points have been slightly reduced.
    Colossus Ragers have had their health reduced significantly.
    Auchindoun: Mana-Tombs
    Ethereal Sorcerer's in Heroic difficulty will summon Arcane Fiends less frequently.
    The Dark Shell of Pandemonious is now more visibly noticeable when cast. The duration has been lowered from 8 to 6 seconds for Heroic difficulty.
    Auchindoun: Auchenai Crypts
    Angered and Raging Skeletons have had their movement speed decreased on Heroic difficulty.
    Avatar of the Martyred's Mortal Strike damage has been reduced.
    Shirrak the Dead Watcher's Fiery Blast damage has been reduced on Heroic difficulty.
    Auchindoun: Sethekk Halls
    Sethekk Guard's damage has been greatly reduced.
    Sethekk Ravenguard's damage has been reduced on Heroic difficulty.
    Sethekk Oracle's Arcane Lightning damage reduced and it will be cast less frequently.
    Added a 1 second cast time to the Spell Reflection ability of the Sethekk Initiates.
    Time-Lost Shadowmage will now be able to cast Curse of the Dark Talon spell more than once.
    Talon King Ikiss on Heroic difficulty has been significantly reworked. He now has a point blank area of effect slow spell, increased damage on the Arcane volley, increased damage on the Arcane Explosion, and reduced the frequency on his Polymorph.
    Auchindoun: Shadow Labyrinth
    Fel Overseer's Mortal Strike in Heroic difficulty now deals less damage.
    Malicious Instructor, Cabal Cultist, Cabal Assassin, Cabal Fanatic and Blackheart the Inciter have all had their damage reduced in Heroic difficulty.
    Cabal Cultist's damage has been reduced in Heroic difficulty.
    Reduced the number of creatures in Shadow Labyrinth.
    Caverns of Time: Escape from Durnholde
    The Durnholde Mage's Polymorph spell will be cast less frequently.
    Infinite Slayer's Mortal Strike damage has been reduced.
    Lieutenant Drake's melee speed has been slowed slightly and damage reduced.
    Caverns of Time: Opening of the Dark Portal
    Temporus' Spell Reflection ability on Heroic difficulty now has a duration of 6 instead of 8 seconds.
    Karazhan
    Prince Malchezaar's aggro range has been reduced.
    Romulo's Daring spell now increases haste and damage by 35% instead of 50%.
    Romulo's Poisoned Thrust will now be used less frequently.
    Backward Lunge damage has been decreased.
    Ethereal Thieves and Spellfilchers in the upper floors have been retuned slightly.
    Terestian Illhoof will no longer sacrifice his primary target.
    Terestian Illhoof's Imps have had their hitpoints reduced slightly.
    Spectral Guest melee damage per second has been slightly reduced.
    The Rolling Pin of the Ghostly Baker will now only deal damage to one target.
    Shade of Aran's conjured elementals now have significantly less health.
    Shade of Aran's Blizzard should now be more visible and its duration has been reduced.
    Shade of Aran will no longer cast Dragon's Breath.
    Netherspite's Nether Burn and Nether Breath will now ignore line of sight.
    Netherspite will no longer cast Nether Burn while crazed.
    The arcane creatures that spawn in the Menagerie will now respawn less frequently.
    Skeletal Ushers can now be affected by Shackle Undead.
    Syphoners and Mana Feeders have been substantially reduced in hit points, and the Syphoner's melee damage has also been reduced.
    Tempest Keep
    The hitpoints of all non-boss mobs has been reduced.
    The damage dealt by Novice Astromancers and Apprentice Star Scryers has been greatly reduced.
    Crystalcore Sentinels no longer Trample.
    Astromancers and Astromancer Lords no longer use the Blast Wave ability.
    The damage over time and radius of the Star Scryer's Starfall spell has been reduced.
    Arcane Resistance will prove much more effective against High Astromancer Solarian's spells.
    High Astromancer Solarian now summons fewer Solarian agents, and the Solarium Agents now deal less damage.
    Al'ar's hit points have been reduced, and killing the Embers of Al'ar will now be both much more possible and more rewarding to the raid.
    High Astromancer Solarian's hit points have been greatly reduced.
    Tempest Keep: The Botanica
    Bloodwarder Protector's Crystal Strike may now be dodged and parried.
    Tempest-Forge Peacekeepers now deal Physical melee damage instead of Arcane, and now longer perform the Arcane Blast ability on Heroic difficulty.
    The duration of Vial of Poison has been reduced significantly.
    Nethervine Reapers and Inciters' damage has been reduced in Heroic difficulty.
    Thorngrin the Tender's damage has been reduced in Heroic difficulty.
    Mutate Fleshlasher's damage has bene reduced in Heroic difficulty.
    The Sunseeker Gene-Splicer's Death & Decay will occur less frequently and the damage has been reduced on Heroic difficulty.
    Mutate Fear-Shrieker and Mutate Horror hit points are reduced
    Warp Splinter's Arcane Volley damage has been reduced on Heroic.
    Tempest Keep: The Arcatraz
    Protean Nightmare,and Arcatraz Defenders damage has been reduced in Heroic difficulty.
    There are now less Arcatraz Sentinel corpses in the dungeon.
    Zereketh the Unbound's Seed of Corruption will not knock players back as far.
    Zereketh's melee damage has been reduced on Heroic difficulty.
    Zereketh's Shadow Nova and the Death Watcher's Death Blast damage has been reduced.
    The Arcatraz Sentinel's Energy Discharge damage has been reduced.
    Negaton Screamer and Negatron Warp-Master melee damage has been reduced on Heroic difficulty.
    Eredar Deathbringer's Diminish Soul damage has been reduced.
    Eredar Soul-Eater's Soul Chill damage has been significantly reduced.
    Skulking Witch's Chastise ability damage has been reduced on Heroic difficulty.
    The Unbound Devastator will no longer be able to use the Devastate and Deafening Roar abilities at the same time. A small shared cooldown has been added.
    Ethereum Wave-Casters, Ethereum Life-Binder, and Gargantuan Abyssal melee damage has been reduced on Heroic difficulty.
    Unchained Doombringer's War Stomp now deals less damage.
    Harbinger Skyriss's Mind Rend will be used less frequently and the damage has been reduced.
    Harbinger Skyriss's Domination duration has been reduced to 6 seconds.
    Harbinger Skyriss's Mana Burn drain has been reduced on Heroic.
    Akkiris Lightning-Waker's Lightning Discharge damage has been reduced on Heroic.
    There are fewer Protean Nightmares roaming the halls.

    2.1.2
    Auchindoun: Sethekk Halls
    Time-Lost Controllers no longer remove buffs from players who are charmed.
    Heroic Mode: Anzu's Spell Bomb is now a curse and he will no longer charge.
    Heroic Mode: The quantity and health of Minions of Anzu that spawn have been reduced.
    Heroic Mode: The frequency and duration of many of his abilities have been retuned to make the fight more forgiving.
    Black Temple
    Ashtongue Spiritbinders may now cast heals on Ashtongue Sorcerors, Channelers, and the Shade of Akama.
    Caverns of Time: Mount Hyjal
    The number of preliminary waves before each boss in the Caverns of Time: Battle for Mount Hyjal event has been reduced from 12 to 8, and some of the larger waves have fewer creatures than before.
    Karazhan
    The damage dealt by Netherspite's Nether Breath has been reduced.

    2.2.0
    Tempest Keep and Coilfang raid bosses will now all drop at least 3 items each.
    Auchindoun: Heroic Sethekk Halls
    Polymorph should no longer affect the main tank.
    Auchindoun: Shadow Labyrinth
    The recast delay for the Shadow Word: Pain cast by Cabal Shadow Priests has been increased.
    Black Temple
    Saber Lash tanks will no longer be knocked back by Sinister Beam or hit by Fatal Attraction, even if they dodge or parry the attack.
    Mother Shahraz is much less likely to cast the same beam many times in a row.
    Caverns of Time: Battle of Mount Hyjal
    Archimonde has received several adjustments and fixes to prevent some of the harder to counter combinations of his abilities. Archimonde's Soul Charge silence has been lowered in duration to 4 seconds, and the death of the Priest with Spirit of Redemption will no longer create two Soul Charges. The casting time of Archimonde's fear has been increased to 1.5 seconds, and he should now use his Fear ability on a much more consistent interval. Archimonde will also no longer cast Grip of the Legion on very far away targets.
    Archimonde will no longer cast Grip of the Legion on targets that have just been hit with Air Burst.
    Caverns of Time: Black Morass
    Increased recast time on Shadow Bolt Volley on Rift Keeper, also reduced damage on Heroic.
    Reduced hit points of Infinite Executioners on Heroic.
    Decreases the maximum possible stacks of Temporus' Mortal Wound from 10 to 7.
    Increased recast time for Temporus' Hasten spell on Heroic.
    Caverns of Time: Escape from Durnholde Keep
    The group of guards underneath the bridge has been removed in Heroic difficulty.
    The Thrall escort event now allows 20 tries at completing the event instead of 3.
    Coilfang Reservoir: Serpentshrine Cavern
    Coilfang Priestesses no longer perform Spirit of Redemption.
    Underbog Colossus' Acid Spray is now less dangerous.
    Underbog Colossus' Spore Quake now has a shorter duration.
    Greyheart Tidecallers' Virulent poison is now less deadly.
    Serpentshrine Sporebats now charge less frequently.
    Greyheart Nether-Mages now blink less frequently.
    Serpentshrine Lurkers have had their damage output reduced.
    Hellfire Citadel: Shattered Halls
    The melee damage dealt by Shattered Hand Reavers, Shattered Hand Legionnaires, Shattered Hand Heathens, and Rabid Warhounds has been reduced.
    Karazhan
    Nightbane's Distracting Ash can now be removed with Cloak of Shadows.
    Tempest Keep: Arcatraz
    The Devastate cast by Unbound Devastators is now Physical damage, and thus reduced by armor.
    The recast delay for the Defeaning Roar spell cast by Unbound Devastators has been increased on Heroic mode.
    Harbinger Skyriss cast his Fear spell less often.
    Tempest Keep: Botanica
    The time between casting of Thorgrin the Tender's Hellfire has been increased.
    The time between casting of Thorgrin the Tender’s Sacrifice has been increased in Heroic Mode.
    Thorgrin the Tender’s Enrage ability now increases his melee damage by 75% instead of 110%.
    Tempest Keep: Mechanar
    Raging Flames in the Nethermancer Sepethrea encounter have had their movement speed reduced slightly in heroic mode.
    The Arcane Servants summoned by Sunseeker Netherbinders now deal less melee damage and have fewer hit points.
    Tempest Keep: The Eye
    The spells cast by High Astromancer Solarian have been extensively reworked. Mark of the Astromancer has been renamed to Light of the Astromancer and no longer reduces Arcane resistance. A player's Arcane Resistance now also provides normal damage mitigation to Solarian's spells.
    Phoenix-Hawk Hatchlings now Wing Buffet less frequently.
    Crimson Hand Centurions now deal less damage with Arcane Flurry.
    Crimson Hand Battle Mages have had their Frost Attack damage reduced.

    2.3.0
    Leveling improvements
    The amount of experience needed to gain a level has been decreased between levels 20 and 60. In addition, the amount of experience granted by quests has been increased between levels 30 and 60.
    Level 1-60 dungeon quests have had their experience and faction rewards increased.
    Many elite creatures and quests in the level 1-60 experience have been changed to accommodate solo play.
    Dungeons and Raids
    Players that complete the attunement quests for Tempest Keep and Coilfang Resevoir may now choose to display a new title, "'character name' Champion of the Naaru".
    The Requirement for Heroic Keys has been lowered to honored.
    Elite mobs outside of pre-Burning Crusade dungeons have been changed to non-elite.
    The level ranges of pre-Burning Crusade dungeons have been adjusted to a narrower range.
    Auchenai Crypts
    Wandering Ghosts are now neutral to players
    Summoned Ghosts now take longer to summon in.
    Auchindoun: Sethekk Halls
    Mobs inside Sethekk Halls will now continue to award Lower City reputation into exalted.
    The Shadow Labyrinth Key can now be looted from the Talon King's Coffer next to Talon King Ikiss in the Sethekk Halls.
    Caverns of Time: Battle of Mount Hyjal
    Increased the reputation awarded for killing Archimonde in Hyjal Summit.
    Hellfire Citadel: Hellfire Ramparts
    The Reinforced Fel Iron Chest can on Heroic difficulty the chest now contains a Badge of Justice for each player present.
    Karazhan
    The number of creatures that must be killed in the Karazhan Servants Quarters area before a miniboss spawns has been reduced.
    Phase hounds in Karazhan will now phase out less frequently.
    Coldmist Widows no longer wipe threat when casting Poison Bolt volley.
    Karazhan Chess Event: The Dust Covered Chest now contains 2 Badges of Justice for each player present.
    Wrath of the Titans will no longer cause Shackle Undead to break.
    Tempest Keep
    The Blood Elves that patrol the Tempest Bridge no longer patrol directly into Prince Kael'thas Sunstrider's chamber.
    Kael'thas
    All four advisors have had their health reduced by 10%.
    All of the summoned weapons have had their health reduced by 10%.
    Al'ar
    The use of Ice Block, Divine Shield, Cloak of Shadows, and other similar spells and abilities will no longer prematurely detonate High Astromancer Solarian's Wrath of the Astromancer spell.


    2.4.0
    Dungeons and raids
    All 25-player raid bosses have had their cash drops increased.
    All 25-player raid bosses that drop set tokens will now drop an additional token.
    Badges of Justice have been added to all raid bosses who did not previously have them.
    Players will no longer require an attunement quest to enter Hyjal.
    Players will no longer require an attunement quest to enter the Black Temple.
    You may now fight Prince Kael'thas and Lady Vashj without first killing all the other bosses in their respective dungeons.
    Non-corporeal Undead and Mechanical creatures are now susceptible to bleed effects.
    Elemental creatures are no longer explicitly immune to poison and disease effects.
    Gems obtained through Heroic difficulty instances are no longer Unique-Equipped.
    Loot dropped by Doomlord Kazzak and Doomwalker has been changed to Bind on Equip. In addition, the cash dropped by these bosses has been significantly increased.
    Scale of the Sands reputation will now be awarded in Hyjal at a much higher rate.
    Caverns of Time: Heroic Black Morass
    Rift Keepers and Rift Lords now have reduced hit points.
    Caverns of Time: Mount Hyjal
    The Vials of Eternity quest is no longer necessary for entry to Hyjal. This quest is still required for faction rings.
    Azgalor's Rain of Fire now affects a smaller area.
    Caverns of Time: Old Hillsbrad
    Durnholde Lookouts no longer spawn in the Heroic version of the instance.
    Hellfire Citadel: Magtheridon's Lair
    Many gameplay elements of the encounters in Magtheridon's Lair have been changed to decrease their overall complexity and difficulty.
    Karazhan
    Players will no longer need the Master’s Key to enter Karazhan. The gates to Karazhan will still require the Master's Key to be unlocked.
    Tempest Keep: The Eye
    The Vapor Clouds in the Kael'thas encounter are significantly easier to see.
    Zul'Aman
    Jan'alai will now only teleport players to him if they are too far away.

    2.4.2
    Magister's Terrace
    Vexallus is no longer immune to taunt on Normal difficulty.
    Kael'thas is no longer immune to taunt on Normal difficulty.
    Sunwell Plateau
    Hellfire will no longer remove Dark Touched in the Eredar Twins encounter.



    2.4.3
    General
    Mounts at 30?! Yes, it’s true: Apprentice Riding and mounts are now available at level 30. Training costs 35 Gold.
    Magisters' Terrace
    The Stun component to the Sunblade Mage Guard Glaive Throw has been removed and the Bounce range reduced.
    Vexallus and Kael'thas are now tauntable in Heroic mode.
    Vexallus' damage caused by Pure Energy has been decreased.
    Kael'thas' Arcane Sphere has had its visual size increased. His Arcane Sphere attack has had its range decreased and the damage/second of Phase two on Normal mode has been decreased.
    Sunblade Warlocks have had their damage reduced slightly.
    Fel Crystals in the Selin Fireheart encounter have had their health reduced slightly.
    Warlord Salaris and Kagani Nightstrike have had their damage output reduced slightly.
    Sunwell Plateau
    M'uru, Entropius, Shadowsword Berserkers and Shadowsword Fury Mages have all had their health decreased.
    Kil'jaeden Encounter
    Sinister Reflections are now interruptible.
    Sinister Reflections on Hunters now use normal Wing Clip instead of Improved Wing Clip.
    Kil'jaeden will now wait slightly longer before casting Flame Darts after casting Darkness of a Thousand Souls.

    Obviously I omitted buffs from this list, but while scanning all the patch notes from TBC, I noticed at least 8-10x as many nerfs compared to buffs overall, to dungeon and raid content.
    Last edited by Will; 2020-10-10 at 08:12 PM.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    (PS: anyone who quotes me, for the love of god please don't quote the entire post. Snip it.).
    I went through all of these nerfs, and I felt every single of one them as I was in multiple guilds back then one two characters (one cutting edge and one that was a t4-5 guild)

    And these nerfs layed out really just highlight how good tbc was as a design. Think about it. How often recently are raids of previous tiers adjusted and tuned? What I mean is, literally every. Single. Raid. Was relevant in tbc from start to finish.

    I have nothing to add here just pointing out how much of a good system of keeping people in old content was instead of forcing everyone to the current content but with easier modes.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Sithalos View Post
    Hopefully Blizzard will ignore all of the "No Changes" screeching this time around, but they probably won't.

    I would love if they didn't nerf anything.
    They already did ignore it and made changes.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    Will bosses be one shot and rolled by random players who haven't played the game (TBC SPECIFICALLY DON'T BRING UP CLASSIC AGAIN). No, I don't believe they will. I believe if someone walks into tbc with no knowledge of the expansion, no knowledge of the fights, and goes in completely blind, yes, they are going to take quite a long time to down some of these bosses.
    Here you are saying many completely different things which isn't new
    First you talk about players who have their muscle memory and min maxing knowledge about the game from experience. Then you say players who haven't played the game at all. Then you say no knowledge of the expansion and fights but played some? That's 3 different things in one post

    I don't love going back to classic. I asked "Ok, then why bring up classic?". And you say "Because you love going back to classic let's continue talking about it"?
    Last edited by kukkamies; 2020-10-12 at 06:39 AM.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by kukkamies View Post
    Here you are saying many completely different things which isn't new
    First you talk about players who have their muscle memory and min maxing knowledge about the game from experience. Then you say players who haven't played the game at all. Then you say no knowledge of the expansion and fights but played some? That's 3 different things in one post

    I don't love going back to classic. I asked "Ok, then why bring up classic?". And you say "Because you love going back to classic let's continue talking about it"?
    It’s called giving examples to prove a point. Go from one extreme to the next so you get it. If you don’t understand how examples work I’m not sure how that’s my problem.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    It’s called giving examples to prove a point. Go from one extreme to the next so you get it. If you don’t understand how examples work I’m not sure how that’s my problem.
    Are you talking about players who do have experience with the game and have raided but haven't seen this one expansion? Players who have never played the game? Players who have played some but never raided, don't know anything about stats and just did pet battles?
    It's called lacking consistency Since it always changes to fit whatever you say next

    I really like how you said really angrily with caps "DON'T BRING UP CLASSIC AGAIN" and 2 paragraphs later you talk about classic again

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by kukkamies View Post
    Are you talking about players who do have experience with the game and have raided but haven't seen this one expansion? Players who have never played the game? Players who have played some but never raided, don't know anything about stats and just did pet battles?
    It's called lacking consistency Since it always changes to fit whatever you say next

    I really like how you said really angrily with caps "DON'T BRING UP CLASSIC AGAIN" and 2 paragraphs later you talk about classic again
    I said don’t bring up classic again because you morons have now idea how to be analogous with it.

    My original point was difficulty of tbc raids are to the average person, then you bring up classic and go “look how easy this was to everyone LOL”. So yeah, I said don’t bring it up because quite frankly you’re idiots who don’t know how to compare two things analogously.

    As for your first paragraph, like I said, if you don’t understand how examples work that’s really not my problem lol. Figure it out

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    I said don’t bring up classic again because you morons have now idea how to be analogous with it.

    My original point was difficulty of tbc raids are to the average person, then you bring up classic and go “look how easy this was to everyone LOL”. So yeah, I said don’t bring it up because quite frankly you’re idiots who don’t know how to compare two things analogously.

    As for your first paragraph, like I said, if you don’t understand how examples work that’s really not my problem lol. Figure it out
    But I never brought up classic If you look to the past you are the one who brought it up I didn't mention classic nor that I talked about only classic and you went "you were talking about classic not tbc" and started mentioning classic mechanics It never ends

    What is your average person? You still have failed to mention it To average raider it's piss easy. To a player that even LFR is hard TBC will hard. I remember those 1-2 hour wipefests in LFR... Everything is hard with bad players

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by kukkamies View Post
    But I never brought up classic If you look to the past you are the one who brought it up I didn't mention classic nor that I talked about only classic and you went "you were talking about classic not tbc" and started mentioning classic mechanics It never ends

    What is your average person? You still have failed to mention it To average raider it's piss easy. To a player that even LFR is hard TBC will hard. I remember those 1-2 hour wipefests in LFR... Everything is hard with bad players
    If you didn’t bring up classic then I wasn’t fucking quoting you. If you saw me tell you to not mention classic then you obviously made those dumb comparisons I just told you.

    I’m not having any more real discussion with a guy who doesn’t understand what an example is first of all, second of all your emojis are just going to make me put you on ignore because it’s clear you’re being an annoying troll and not actually trying to argue something you think is correct

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    If you didn’t bring up classic then I wasn’t fucking quoting you. If you saw me tell you to not mention classic then you obviously made those dumb comparisons I just told you.

    I’m not having any more real discussion with a guy who doesn’t understand what an example is first of all, second of all your emojis are just going to make me put you on ignore because it’s clear you’re being an annoying troll and not actually trying to argue something you think is correct
    You can find it right at https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52708070
    You can see I never mention classic anywhere before it. You quote me and say "You are talking about classic not tbc" when I never did.

    I put emotes because I think it's funny how out of it you are
    Last edited by kukkamies; 2020-10-13 at 12:53 PM.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    Yes you are taking context of multiple thoughts going at once and applying it to fit this narrative that I think players aren't overall better at the game which is nonsense and it's clear you are just using these as confirmation bias for your 'theory' of something I LITERALLY never said.

    Yes, players are better today, a major MAJOR part of that is the knowledge we have of the game. Is that seriously a surprise to you? Did I at any point in there say "It would take them just as long to down it today with no knowledge as it took them to down it back then"? Did I say this? Because if I said something like this then it would make more sense for your theory.

    I'll walk you through this because it's clear you are struggling here.

    I first pointed out that people are better at this game because of knowledge of the game. This is 100% obvious and shouldn't even be questioned.

    Look at fortnite for example, look at the average player in fortnite today and compare them to the average player in season one. They are leaps and bounds ahead of that season one player. Why? Is it because people are just so much better at video games today they rocketed forward that much? Maybe, but the biggest thing is that they understand the game better, they know the meta, they have the muscle memory building down so well it's basically nothing to them.

    Same goes for wow. We understand the game better, especially because it's been out for so long. We have guides on min/maxing raid comps for that expansion and gearing that it's to a point where we could probably double the damage output. Wow isn't a mechanically difficult game, it's all about the knowledge of fights, gear, raid comps, etc that pushes you to that point (pve specifically).

    Now that brings me to my other point, and I really need you to follow here with what I just said in mind.

    Will bosses be one shot and rolled by random players who haven't played the game (TBC SPECIFICALLY DON'T BRING UP CLASSIC AGAIN). No, I don't believe they will. I believe if someone walks into tbc with no knowledge of the expansion, no knowledge of the fights, and goes in completely blind, yes, they are going to take quite a long time to down some of these bosses.

    NOW DOES THAT MEAN THAT PLAYERS WILL TAKE LONGER OR AS LONG AS THE PLAYERS BACK THEN? No. This is where you are implying what I'm saying. I never said that. I said it is going to take them much longer to down these fights and complete them compared to what this random person saying it will be one shot by LFR pugs.

    Here I'll use classic one time as a comparison because I know you loved to keep going back to it. Go into classic right now, find a pug for AQ40 where people haven't done the fights... I guarantee you are sitting in there for 4 hours or more. This is common freakin sense to everyone who has played any iteration of this recently and it honestly should come to no surprise to anyone who has played wow for years.... No lfr raid is walking into a raid like ssc or sunwell and one shotting every boss or "just 20 minutes behind top raiders overall" is not realistic at all.

    Also, your post is irrelevant to what I was saying because you didn't even understand what I was arguing against or for my guy, you linked me an article about a guy telling us how easy the content is because of all the knowledge we have, wow my guy such relevance much understanding A+ grade for you.
    In wrath, but even in cata as well, I used to get my husband into pugs and explain him tactics for his role as he was getting summoned. It took me 30 seconds: do this, don't do this. Our son's first pug raid was in mop, in siege, where he, as a 9 year old pugged up to and with malkorok on flex, okay, but still. Today, I wouldn't be able to explain them the tactics in 2-3-4 sentences.
    What I'm saying is that tactics were so much easier back then. Yes, there were gimmicks, but it was just so much easier to explain and get the grip.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but no random pug or casual or whatever guy can walk up to Vash, because of attunements. Attunements kinda make sure that you kinda have some basic idea of how wow works and how you might wanna get some info on bosses etc.
    Last edited by Lei; 2020-10-13 at 12:56 PM.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    Attunements kinda make sure that you kinda have some basic idea of how wow works and how you might wanna get some info on bosses etc.
    Sorry if this is repeating something that's already been said. It's late here, and I didn't want to read the entire thread. And sorry if this takes a tangent and runs off with it....

    I actually like attunements for the reasons I just quoted from you. The only thing I would change is to make attunements account wide for guild groups. PUGs need the actual gearing that goes along with attunements to make sure everyone in the raid is up to par. But guilds can do whatever they want within their own groups, IMO. Including carry some undergeared character.

    To me, the problems of attunements are almost entirely guild-centric. Replacing a MT or healer can mean going backwards in progression in order to catch someone up. That's a completely unnecessary step for dedicated guild groups. The only caveat would be to somehow ensure characters are in a guild long-enough to not just abuse guild-hopping to get free gear and leave. Maybe use the guild reputation system or something? I don't know.

    Not to mention that some of the same stuff that's happening in Classic right now will also apply. People won't take as long to gear or to clear attunements. Mainly because everyone already knows WTF they're doing. And the ones who don't have 1000x more access to info than we did back in 2007.

    Anyway, I say leave attunements in. Just make some slight adjustments for the conditions and dynamics of modern players.

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