Page 9 of 11 FirstFirst ...
7
8
9
10
11
LastLast
  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Sorry if this is repeating something that's already been said. It's late here, and I didn't want to read the entire thread. And sorry if this takes a tangent and runs off with it....

    I actually like attunements for the reasons I just quoted from you. The only thing I would change is to make attunements account wide for guild groups. PUGs need the actual gearing that goes along with attunements to make sure everyone in the raid is up to par. But guilds can do whatever they want within their own groups, IMO. Including carry some undergeared character.

    To me, the problems of attunements are almost entirely guild-centric. Replacing a MT or healer can mean going backwards in progression in order to catch someone up. That's a completely unnecessary step for dedicated guild groups. The only caveat would be to somehow ensure characters are in a guild long-enough to not just abuse guild-hopping to get free gear and leave. Maybe use the guild reputation system or something? I don't know.

    Not to mention that some of the same stuff that's happening in Classic right now will also apply. People won't take as long to gear or to clear attunements. Mainly because everyone already knows WTF they're doing. And the ones who don't have 1000x more access to info than we did back in 2007.

    Anyway, I say leave attunements in. Just make some slight adjustments for the conditions and dynamics of modern players.
    I'm personally on the side of having attunements exactly how they were in TBC. I personally believe they were perfect. The attunements weren't crazy difficult to go back and do for alts or replacing a tank. It was seriously just "Go do this raid and kill this boss". It took like one night out of one week to go back and get all the alts/new recruits up to par with attunements.

    I love it because it made the entirety of TBC raids relevant throughout the entire expansion which was amazing. Without them you get something like todays raiding where it's 'play the patch' and you only try to raid the most current content.

  2. #162
    They won't be balancing TBC patch to patch. I would bet serious money it will be just like Classic. They will take the talents from the final patch (that isn't the pre-patch for WotLK) and put them into the game. Same with any balance changes. You may get a few of the individual things tied to attunements that they prune out that phase to phase to make it feel more authentic to the original experience but I just don't see them micro managing it. Legacy servers seem to be about releasing it and having to manage it as little as possible. Sure it has a staff, sure people ARE managing it, but they don't want it to be as heavy or attended as their current expansion servers that they even ignore as much as possible to begin with as well.

  3. #163
    Dreadlord
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    887
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    well it was either the last patch or the wrath pre-patch nerfed the boss hp by like 30 or 50%. kaels adds were nerfed by about 10% hp but since there are 4 adds that you have to kill twice that 10% is more like 10% x4 x2. basically an 80% nerf to the overall add hp. how much damage you need to do to kill all 4 adds both times. illidan had an ability that was removed at some point, called shear, when we got to him he didn't do shear anymore but it was kinda a wipe mechanic initially it had to be blocked or the debuff it left would likely kill the tank or contribute to them dying. it reduced their max hp by like 60%. so it would have been easy to lose the tank after getting hit by this. this ability is likely the only thing that actually made illidan 'hard' so he was defanged the moment he lost shear.
    The reason he lost Shear was that the content wasn't current any more and it was always basically a "Your tanks must be Warriors" check anyway.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Synical123 View Post
    I'm personally on the side of having attunements exactly how they were in TBC. I personally believe they were perfect. The attunements weren't crazy difficult to go back and do for alts or replacing a tank. It was seriously just "Go do this raid and kill this boss". It took like one night out of one week to go back and get all the alts/new recruits up to par with attunements.

    I love it because it made the entirety of TBC raids relevant throughout the entire expansion which was amazing. Without them you get something like todays raiding where it's 'play the patch' and you only try to raid the most current content.
    The problem is that when you get into some of the later tiers, it's asking an entire raid group to go repeat irrelevant content just to catch up a guild alt for a PLAYER who's already done it.

    As I said, for PUGs I agree with you. But for guilds it's unnecessary busywork when tje player already has a character that's done it before.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    The problem is that when you get into some of the later tiers, it's asking an entire raid group to go repeat irrelevant content just to catch up a guild alt for a PLAYER who's already done it.

    As I said, for PUGs I agree with you. But for guilds it's unnecessary busywork when tje player already has a character that's done it before.
    I get it, I really do, but in all honesty I still don't think it's that big of a deal. Why? Because 9/10 times if your a guild that is raiding that content you are only spending a fraction of your time in that current content, so this leaves a majority of the week open for things like alt runs, badge runs, etc... Most people might be doing these raids anyways, not to mention if you have an alt that literally JUST hit 70, it's sort of silly to just jump right into the hardest raid in the expansion right away. You will find a night where you will get most of these attunements done yourself, then your guild can schedule an alt night and get all the raids done easily.

    I'm personally in the boat of alts shouldn't really get boosted instantly to their mains spot just because they have done it before. They are already going to go above and beyond others who are behind simply because of their skill, knowledge, and guild alone.

    I do not think alts are a necessity or that they should be given special treatment just because they are alts. I know people may not like this analogy, but just because I make an alt and I am 2800 rating, have epic flying, and have max professions...that my alt should just instantly be given or have an easier path to getting those achievements as well. What kills content the fastest in a game like wow is when you make it irrelevant. Hence what we have today. Yes, it's NICER and EASIER to have a change like you are suggesting... but it just doesn't makes sense in the grand scheme of things IMO

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Synical123 View Post
    What kills content the fastest in a game like wow is when you make it irrelevant.
    And what kills it event faster than that is players not doing it at all because they're sick of the bullshit. We saw this with the Essence grind in BfA. Sure, some high-end players did it. But most just didn't bother.

    Making players repeat pointless busywork might be a good tactic for increasing playtime, but it's a terrible tactic for increasing fun.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    And what kills it event faster than that is players not doing it at all because they're sick of the bullshit. We saw this with the Essence grind in BfA. Sure, some high-end players did it. But most just didn't bother.

    Making players repeat pointless busywork might be a good tactic for increasing playtime, but it's a terrible tactic for increasing fun.
    Comparing an essence grind to literally just doing a raid one more time is sort of silly. Come on now lol.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Synical123 View Post
    Comparing an essence grind to literally just doing a raid one more time is sort of silly. Come on now lol.
    It's not just "doing a raid one more time". It's asking 10 to 25 people to do a raid that they've already done, and has no rewards left for them.

    I don't think you fully grasp the magnitude of how tedious that gets when you have to do it EVERY TIME you recruit a new player or want to swap an alt.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    It's not just "doing a raid one more time". It's asking 10 to 25 people to do a raid that they've already done, and has no rewards left for them.

    I don't think you fully grasp the magnitude of how tedious that gets when you have to do it EVERY TIME you recruit a new player or want to swap an alt.
    No I complete get it. I’ve been playing on tbc private servers for years now. What I’m telling you is that it is no burden. When guilds full clear their current tier raids they have nothing to do for the rest of the week. Most have 2nd raid groups who are behind a tier or alt runs specifically to catch up on gear. That and most of the time at that point in the game where you are 2-3 tiers behind you want to farm as many badges on your main ANYWAY so going to these lower tier runs benefits you tremendously.

    That and if you are still in a situation where you’re shit out of luck and can’t find a group for whatever the reason (which rarely ever happens) people are pugging these runs 24/7.

    I don’t think you fully understand that without this, once you got your one raid for the week, you would be out of content or just farming random dungeons for badges.

    Idk if you’re speaking from a perspective of years ago where pugging things like ssc were tough, but today it’s not an issue whatsoever. Period.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Synical123 View Post
    No I complete get it. I’ve been playing on tbc private servers for years now. What I’m telling you is that it is no burden. When guilds full clear their current tier raids they have nothing to do for the rest of the week. Most have 2nd raid groups who are behind a tier or alt runs specifically to catch up on gear. That and most of the time at that point in the game where you are 2-3 tiers behind you want to farm as many badges on your main ANYWAY so going to these lower tier runs benefits you tremendously.

    That and if you are still in a situation where you’re shit out of luck and can’t find a group for whatever the reason (which rarely ever happens) people are pugging these runs 24/7.

    I don’t think you fully understand that without this, once you got your one raid for the week, you would be out of content or just farming random dungeons for badges.

    Idk if you’re speaking from a perspective of years ago where pugging things like ssc were tough, but today it’s not an issue whatsoever. Period.
    Sure, if all you're doing is raid-logging, what you say is true.

    But the point I was making was that repeating the same content with no gain is tedious and unnecessary. It doesn't make any logical sense to force players to repeat it when they've already done it. The point of attunements is to ensure that a character and player is up to par. If the player(the person behind the keyboard) has already done it before, then they know what they're doing. If the character hasn't done it, then it's on the guild to accept that and decide to do a carry or not.

    If the only argument is "Players won't have anything else to do in the week", then making the answer be "force 24 people to repeat crap they've already done just to replace a tank or healer, just so they can run the content they actually want to do" is a bad answer.

    Making a dynamic where every player of a raid has to repeat the attunement process every single time a member of their raid swaps out is bad design, and WORSE than having nothing to do after raid-logging.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Sure, if all you're doing is raid-logging, what you say is true.

    But the point I was making was that repeating the same content with no gain is tedious and unnecessary. It doesn't make any logical sense to force players to repeat it when they've already done it. The point of attunements is to ensure that a character and player is up to par. If the player(the person behind the keyboard) has already done it before, then they know what they're doing. If the character hasn't done it, then it's on the guild to accept that and decide to do a carry or not.

    If the only argument is "Players won't have anything else to do in the week", then making the answer be "force 24 people to repeat crap they've already done just to replace a tank or healer, just so they can run the content they actually want to do" is a bad answer.

    Making a dynamic where every player of a raid has to repeat the attunement process every single time a member of their raid swaps out is bad design, and WORSE than having nothing to do after raid-logging.
    Idk if you chose not to read most my post but the majority of the point I just made was that there is a gain for those who choose to carry them on their mains. Also that most of time you are running these with people who are getting gains from it in the first place.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Synical123 View Post
    Idk if you chose not to read most my post but the majority of the point I just made was that there is a gain for those who choose to carry them on their mains. Also that most of time you are running these with people who are getting gains from it in the first place.
    I repeat: "Making a dynamic where every player of a raid has to repeat the attunement process every single time a member of their raid swaps out is bad design, and WORSE than having nothing to do after raid-logging."

    Yes, the alt or new raid member is getting some gain. But at the expense of every other person in the raid getting nothing besides wasted time.

    The cost of running through an attunement, when an attunement has already happened for that player, so far outpaces the gain for that individual character that it's pedantic to claim benefit. Badges don't equate a significant enough value to warrant repeating the attunement.

    And yes, I'm speaking from the context of actual TBC experience, not some private server which is known to not use the same rules or settings as the original game, and often gets things VERY wrong.

    Well, unpopular opinion really nails it. I'm done here. Believe what you want.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I repeat: "Making a dynamic where every player of a raid has to repeat the attunement process every single time a member of their raid swaps out is bad design, and WORSE than having nothing to do after raid-logging."

    Yes, the alt or new raid member is getting some gain. But at the expense of every other person in the raid getting nothing besides wasted time.

    The cost of running through an attunement, when an attunement has already happened for that player, so far outpaces the gain for that individual character that it's pedantic to claim benefit. Badges don't equate a significant enough value to warrant repeating the attunement.

    And yes, I'm speaking from the context of actual TBC experience, not some private server which is known to not use the same rules or settings as the original game, and often gets things VERY wrong.

    Well, unpopular opinion really nails it. I'm done here. Believe what you want.
    Ok it’s clear to me you haven’t played tbc in awhile and have no clue how it’s played. Have a good one man.

  14. #174
    You already have to compete with 25-40 other people for loot, on bosses you can only kill once a week.
    Now you want them to make the bosses harder so that its not even guarenteed you will clear all the bosses in a week?
    That's how you kill the game. No one wants to do impossibly difficult raids over and over again for even 6 months. If you want a challenge go play a challenging game, like a fighting game.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    Other games have already gone through this exact scenario, and came up with solutions.

    Everquest bosses have a buff that makes them significantly harder than their oldschool counterparts, to account for players knowing everything.

    If Blizzard actually cared about "Presenting an authentic vanilla/bc experience" they would do something similar.

    But they won't, cause they are just milking this for easy subs. I'm still glad they did it, but it could be so much better.
    Which is fine to do if you want to totally exclude new players. The experience is supposed to be authentic for them, alone. It's just a nostalgia trip for everyone else.

  16. #176
    I see ALOT of people posting most of the nerfs where fixes due to bugged encounters or mechanics. I actualy started doubting if that was really the case. There for I decided to go through the patch notes and see what they changed. I’ve indeed seen ALOT of fixes on PvE content. But i’ve also seen ALOT and ALOTLOT of nerfs to PvE content. Specificly reducing HP and ability casttimes, impact etc etc to make encounters ‘easier’ and ‘more accesable’. Lets not be mistaken with what a NERF is and a bug fix. These are 2 entierly diffrent things. Here is a short list of patches where they made ‘nerfs’ to PvE content. It’s ALOT. What suprices me most, is that apparently Gruul has never been nerfed. I believed he also underwent a big nerf. Let me fact check that though! Might have missed it in 2.1... but there's just so many nerfs... poeh.


    Patch: 2.0.10. made nerfs to dungeons and Karazhan. Patch: 2.1.0. Some dungeon nerfs, but also buffs. Nerfs on Magtheridon (Channeler HP + Inferno DMG). Nerfs in SSC (Vashj no persuasion) most bosses nerfed in damage and in health. Nerfs in Karazhan; practicly everything has less health and does less dmg. Tempest Keep same story… everything is nerfed. Less HP less impactfull abilities aswel as less damage. Patch 2.1.2: Mount Hyjal trash nerfed 4 less trash waves, aswel as less creatures in these waves. Karazhan; Netherspite dmg nerf. Patch 2.2.0: Moste dungeons have been nerfed (again) abilities are cast slower and less impactfull. Damage overal has been nerfed. Black Temple: Mother Sharazah is been given a small nerf. Mount Hyjal: Archimonde has had fixes to prevent harder to counter combinations of his abilities. Aswel Jaina’s and Thralls health have been reduced to make them less likely of dying. So… More… nerfs for Mount Hyjal. SSC: More nerfs; especialy on trash, the dmg has been reduced significantly. Tempest Keep: Some reworks which is fair. Still applied some nerfs on trash (specificly in the damage dealt). 2.3.0. Some dungeons have been nerfed in damage done by trash/bosses. Tempest Keep: Keal’Thas has been nerfed (all adds reduced their health by 10%). Again… nerfs… especialy in damage dealt (see a pattern here? I’m not talking about bugs or fixes, i’m talking about nerfs that make the PvE content significantly easier). 2.3.2: Nothing too much; bug fixes. Some nerfs on the Keal’thas trash. Patch 2.4.: Some heroic nerfs. Mount Hyjal; small nerf to Azgalor. Magtheridon; complexitiy of the fight have changed to make it less difficult.

    So no... the 'NO NERFS' I am talking about, is actual NERFS. I'm not talking about bugs, or hotfixes regarding to unintended bugs that a boss cleaves 360'. I'm talking about the changes they made in these following patches to reduce the difficulty of the PvE content. Take a look for yourself on WoW head what they have done! It's quite fascinating how many actual NERFS where applied to the content. My suggestion is; put revert them. Not the actual BUGS but the NERFS. Let's not talk about the BUGS anymore, let's talk about the actualy NERFS.... -_-... The topic states 'NO NERFS' not... 'BUGGED'.
    Last edited by Scoobtbh; 2020-10-16 at 11:45 AM.

  17. #177
    the problem is that the release heroics were absolute wipe fests, most tanks were paper thin compared to the hits they were taking and you had to CC nearly every pull. then you went to karazhan and the damage was still substantial (especially from certain mobs like the ghostly stewards who could gib tanks) but you had 1-2 more healers so it was easier overall karazhan compared to heroics, the nerfs just kinda made the difficulty curve an actual curve. in terms of raid boss fights the nerfs happened after they were killed mostly by the top end. but its the same principle of having a difficulty curve and tuning it so it flows that way.
    Last edited by Heathy; 2020-10-16 at 11:52 AM.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    the problem is that the release heroics were absolute wipe fests, most tanks were paper thin compared to the hits they were taking and you had to CC nearly every pull. then you went to karazhan and the damage was still substantial (especially from certain mobs like the ghostly stewards who could gib tanks) but you had 1-2 more healers so it was easier overall karazhan compared to heroics, the nerfs just kinda made the difficulty curve an actual curve. in terms of raid boss fights the nerfs happened after they were killed mostly by the top end. but its the same principle of having a difficulty curve and tuning it so it flows that way.
    But why would this be a problem now? From What I read is that people will faceroll through it anyways. So why would everyone be so against 'launching' a game in it's 'unnerfed state'? Becuase you can faceroll allitle less faster?

  19. #179
    I think its the general idea around how they are going to manage to hotfix in a series of buffs and nerfs, I don't expect them to do that, run a patch cycle that nerfs the content periodically over time I just expect that it'll end up being the most balanced patch, it'll still be somewhat challenging doing it with level appropriate gear (and perhaps ppl who haven't done it before) it'll only really get faceroll when you out gear it.

    the game changed in a variety of ways, in the beginning there were weapon skills, that was replaced by expertise, somewhere toward the latter end, when I started doing BT, there was a patch that nerfed spirit by about 30% (after I spent most of t5 stacking spirit) healing spells and magic and damage spells was consolidated into spell power at some point. there were various changes during tbc and I wouldn't expect them to do them all again.
    Last edited by Heathy; 2020-10-16 at 12:01 PM.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    I think its the general idea around how they are going to manage to hotfix in a series of buffs and nerfs, I don't expect them to do that, run a patch cycle that nerfs the content periodically over time I just expect that it'll end up being the most balanced patch, it'll still be somewhat challenging doing it with level appropriate gear (and perhaps ppl who haven't done it before) it'll only really get faceroll when you out gear it.
    But the point is... #NoChanges. This is suggesting... no changes to an appropriate degree. I personally don't understand why people are thinking I am suggesting changes in this thread. I'm actualy suggesting dilver the game in it's 'polished stage' but without the 'decrease' of difficulty. Personally I'm against patching the game periodicly. But I still belief they should deliver it in the state I am suggesting.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •