Burning Crusade NO NERFS!!!!

[Stormwolf64]

So if the rally cry for Classic was NOCHANGES, is the rally cry for BC CHANGES?

How is life living in a completely black and white square box?

[AwkwardSquirtle]

You really think people were so bad back then they didn’t know how to spam 1?

Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if people were spamming 124524 instead. Destruction warlocks had a lot of spells that weren't shadowbolt. I'm willing to bet that a lot of players made the mistake of applying dots or throwing in some fire spells, not realising that it was a dps loss.

[Tojara]

Why are people arguing so much about Kael'thas. Go look at when he was killed originally, and then go look at when Black Temple was released. I'll give you a hint, Black Temple was released before Kael'thas was even killed, and there's numerous reasons as to why that was the case. The amount of bugs, or simply unfair things that people had to deal with during the encounter were monumental, and they went unfixed for a prolonged period of time. For all of that content that TBC launched with, barely any of it was actually tuned correctly, with half of the bosses in SSC/TK undergoing massive changes because Blizzard completely fucked up the tuning of TBC.

Attunements being changed is a good thing and not a single guild had to go through the process of acquiring the quest reward that allowed entry to Hyjal either. When people realized that only three of them dropped per kill, top players at the time complained and Blizzard promptly fixed it. Not only was it going to be a recruitment nightmare for guilds progressing into T6, but it was also going to delay guilds several weeks upon killing Kael'thas from even doing things like Hyjal to begin with. Imagine the content being so back logged that T6 is released before T5 is even finished, only to realize that you're then gated another month or so from actually doing it because of the attunement process? Yeah, that's why it's changed.

As far as heroic dungeons having their requirements pushed back to honored, why is that a bad thing? TBC regardless of balance is going to be pretty easy, and I don't think there's anything necessarily engaging about doing every single quest available, and spamming the dungeons until you can actually do the the 'hardmode' version of the dungeon. It made little sense then, and it makes even less sense now.

Multiple people have said it, and so haven't I. A lot of the "nerfs" in TBC are fairly logical and most of the changes were simply necessary because of how bugged (read bugged, not hard) the majority of the bosses were. The battle/defensive elixir thing wasn't in on launch, so a progressive patch cycle would be incredibly retarded considering old consumables and world buffs would still be in play. Some people might like that, but the rat race of getting world buffs in classic is awful, and it would be even more awful in the opening months of TBC.

Does TBC need changes, or it's raid encounters buffed? Actually yeah, that would probably be wise. Them buffing them back up to their original incarnations isn't going to cause challenge though, and people need to accept that. In most cases (as has been outlined multiple times) using the older versions of the bosses usually just means a boss with unfair mechanics or bugged abilities, and people really need to understand that aspect.

A lot of classic enthusiasts and those that love private servers simply cite adding extra health or damage, which really doesn't change a whole lot, aside from forcing an even stricter meta from a numbers perspective (drums on everybody, and absolutely tailor made comps). The reason these people do this is because they're willing to do it, but they aren't willing to actually do encounters that are actually challenging. If you started adding mechanics and more personal responsibility to the encounters (within reason), I'm going to guess most of these people are going to falter. Why? Because earlier iterations of raiding content in WoW are pretty barebones, and the only thing most people can wrap their heads around are the same encounters with perhaps slightly higher tuning, and nothing more. Throw in extra shit, regardless of whether it shifts the difficulty too much and these people would probably throw a fit.

TBC should absolutely have changes and the majority of the changes that transpired through it's life span were pretty logical. That's not to say that they should seriously look at changing the pacing of raid content (it was way too fast), or potentially sit down and *gasp* mess with some of the encounters a bit to make them a bit more interesting. *No nerfs* to me just spells people wanting bugged or dumb launch encounters. If you really want it to be challenging, I'd much rather they adjust the bosses themselves (adding new things, even at the expense of numbers tuning) if it meant a slightly new spin on old content, with a bit more difficulty. The Illidan encounter in particular is pretty fucking awful in TBC with the trap mechanic largely being ignored, and a pretty lackluster third/fourth phase. Plenty of examples where they could make encounters more difficult.

Then again, some people love things to just be the way they were so they can go in and blast with their classic friends. That's basically what I do on classic. Zero difficulty and zero progression. Show up, talk shit, and basically blast. And you know what? There's nothing wrong with that approach either.

People got what they wanted mostly with Classic Vanilla and for a lot of people, it really didn't hit the mark. You don't need grueling progression cycles for old content, but having a completely hands off approach (IMO) doesn't work either. If it were up to me I would have them change up numerous encounters, adding some 'new' things to make it somewhat fresh. They don't need to completely start from ground zero nor do they need to change everything, but adding some fresh new takes on the dungeon/raid content at the very least would be pretty welcome.

TLDR; Take chances, keep the systems and framework the same, use TBC as a testing ground to alter some things (altered pacing, and potentially making PvE different in certain places).

[Mosha]

Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if people were spamming 124524 instead. Destruction warlocks had a lot of spells that weren't shadowbolt. I'm willing to bet that a lot of players made the mistake of applying dots or throwing in some fire spells, not realising that it was a dps loss.

That wasn’t the point of my post friend.

[Dakhath]

How is life living in a completely black and white square box?

Wonderful, thanks for asking.

[Mosha]

the nerf itself is 20% because you kill them twice, it would be only 10% if you only had to kill them once.

hopefully thats the end of this now.

Holy shit this guy. Been corrected how many times and STILL doesn’t understand 3rd grade math

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You never did very good in math did you? Cause I don't know what you are trying to do in your post, but it isn't math.


EDIT

I see where we are getting this wrong. You're saying it's just 1 single add that it takes the hp from not the entire group of adds. I was talking the whole group of adds.

I’m starting to think 50% of the people on here didn’t pass 3rd grade math.

Wait I shouldn’t use percentages.

I’m starting to think 1 out of every 2 people here didnt pass 3rd grade math.

[Utrrabbit]

Thanks for outing yourself as either a troll or a wod baby. Either it’s an easy mute from me bud

Try again. I am not the troll you are, if you think any raider today would have issues in vanilla or tbc stepping foot into it for the first time.

I know people who never played vanilla. Never looked up the fights. Never looked up gearing. They full cleared all the raid out atm in an hour first stepping foot in them.

Vanilla mechanics are basic.

[kukkamies]

No. It’s because everything is min/maxed to the teeth because of...what? Knowledge. Everyone knows what best gear to run because of knowledge everyone knows what best raid comp to run because of knowledge.

You really think people were so bad back then they didn’t know how to spam 1?

Also another reason what you said was irrelevant is because you were talking about classic not tbc.

Classic everyone and their dog knows about world buffs, pots, etc. Back then they didn’t know or think of that shit.

Tbc doesn’t have those and that’s what I’m referring to anyway. Even if you are pushing more dps in tbc because you’re ‘better’ (you followed a guide made by someone who has played it for 15 years). That doesn’t mean you are going to walk into muru and one shot him with no knowledge. That’s not how tbc boss fights worked. Maybe vanilla bosses it does, not tbc.

If you'd bothered to read, he explicitly mentions world buffs and it was a part of what the poster in a top guild hated in vanilla. They obviously knew and used world buffs. He even mentions "At the start of Wotlk players were still a lot worse". Since when is wotlk before tbc?

If you now apply knowledge about stats and raid comp to boss mechanics it's a different question altogether. If you also remove their knowledge about classes, about the game itself, about talents, about what buttons move your character, of course it'll be hard. You could even remove knowledge about games together and it'd be hard. Maybe the players also forgot how to voice chat and organize? What's your point again?

No one is saying they will one shot muru with no knowledge. But that it's not hard and wouldn't last long.
Did you check Muru's tactics? A lot of it is even a gear and dps check, very simple tactics. Kite and nuke adds, avoid fire on ground, dispel mobs, then nuke Muru on 2nd phase. That's the whole strategy. Even normal mode bosses have been harder since Cata.
With current experience of raiding there's no difficulty at all there but it really was difficult when players were worse and didn't have experience.

[Akka]

Hopefully Blizzard will ignore all of the "No Changes" screeching this time around, but they probably won't.

I would love if they didn't nerf anything.

TBC without nerf wouldn't be "changed". It would just be a snapshot of what TBC was.
And yeah, they should make TBC Classic based on 2.1 (the one where they actually balanced the game and which wasn't filled with bugs) and NOT any later version that nerfed the hell out of everything.

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Was any of TBCs content even really nerfed?

Yes, massively.
2.1 nerfed all the raid encounters AND the 5-man AND buffed the gear AND buffed the classes, though to be fair it was the one that was actually needed (the game was very unbalanced, with 360 cleaves one-shotting DPS everywhere).
EVERY SINGLE PATCH nerfed the heroic instances.
2.4.3 removed attunements.

[Indil]

Tbc is going to get steamrolled like classic and in future wotlk. Except maybe Ulduar Hm, Lk hc and some trial of the grand crusader fights, all raids before mid cata, were extremely easy.
People were just bad back than.

[Akka]

Like classic, the content was easy before the nurfs, its just the players were bad back then.

Stop saying shit, TBC was massively harder than Vanilla, and people already had two years and a half to get in shape, it's not MC and "we're discovering the game" again.

What makes the content so easy is 75 % that we know what to expect and 25 % that we can prepare for it and get the exact good gear and buffs and so on. And even then, TBC from 2.1 prevented people to stack consumables and there were no more WB, so it removes a lot of the available brute-forcing.

[kukkamies]

Stop saying shit, TBC was massively harder than Vanilla, and people already had two years and a half to get in shape, it's not MC and "we're discovering the game" again.

What makes the content so easy is 75 % that we know what to expect and 25 % that we can prepare for it and get the exact good gear and buffs and so on. And even then, TBC from 2.1 prevented people to stack consumables and there were no more WB, so it removes a lot of the available brute-forcing.

A bit harder than vanilla, but not massively. Have you looked at TBC bosses? The most difficult and complicated bosses have 2-3 mechanics. It's on the level of Legion/Bfa normal raids. Anyone can clear them pretty quick.
The complicated part is all the attunements, not the raids themself.

[Monster Hunter]

Stop saying shit, TBC was massively harder than Vanilla, and people already had two years and a half to get in shape, it's not MC and "we're discovering the game" again.

What makes the content so easy is 75 % that we know what to expect and 25 % that we can prepare for it and get the exact good gear and buffs and so on. And even then, TBC from 2.1 prevented people to stack consumables and there were no more WB, so it removes a lot of the available brute-forcing.

I played it, it was easy, get over it.

They melt the boss's on private servers now so they will melt them when classic tbc comes out no point thinking differently.

Don't like it ? Ask blozz to buff the old boss's not my problem chuck.

[chrisnumbers]

Tbc is going to get steamrolled like classic and in future wotlk. Except maybe Ulduar Hm, Lk hc and some trial of the grand crusader fights, all raids before mid cata, were extremely easy.
People were just bad back than.

Yep, I think people started to get pretty good in Wrath because of Ulduar hardmodes. It was like a slap in the face, like where is this coming from? How is this so hard? Am I just bad? Maybe I should pay more attention? Ulduar was a huge turning point in raiding difficulty and it only got harder and crazier. Raiding in Classic and TBC is like a PhD going back to preschool.

[Akka]

I played it, it was easy, get over it.

It certainly wasn't easy in any way at the time, especially before 2.1.

They melt the boss's on private servers now so they will melt them when classic tbc comes out no point thinking differently.

Did you even read the post you answer to ? It's entirely dedicated to explain that yes they will be facerolled, and why. Not because they are "easy" but because everybody will know how to do them and will be fully prepared well before even putting foot in the instances.

And obviously if Blizzard is dumb enough to go with 2.4.3 data, they will then be actually easy because of the pile-up of nerfs.

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Yep, I think people started to get pretty good in Wrath because of Ulduar hardmodes. It was like a slap in the face, like where is this coming from? How is this so hard? Am I just bad? Maybe I should pay more attention? Ulduar was a huge turning point in raiding difficulty and it only got harder and crazier. Raiding in Classic and TBC is like a PhD going back to preschool.

Only the bleeding edge guilds did hardmode, so only them "improved" - and even then, only some of the hardmode were actually harder than un-nerfed TBC content.
Most of the people only did the normal modes, and this one was actually EASIER than TBC.

Not even going to speak of the 5-men, which were pure joke.

[Heathy]

there is always a level of uncertainty when you do any boss for the first time with your guild, you don't know how well its going to go until you go in and try it. difficulty is subjective, but there are some fights in tbc that did require a level of co-ordination that went beyond simply nuking it down, I think ppl started to min/max better in tbc aswell the gear was probably itemised better so there were less trash crap loot that no one ever bids on. and it was easier to get full t4 or full t5 while slotting in random drops in the other gear slots. compared to gathering 8pt sets or waiting for individual non-set items to drop to piece together the perfect bis gear set.

I just remember the 3 being a bit tricky, vashj, kael and archimonde. you can't really just nuke your way through these fights all 3 of them require co-ordination and communication they aren't really the type of encounters that you can just wing and hope for the best.

if you miss too many cores on vashj your healers will eventually go oom, the raid is split up and the close groups won't be able to reach the far groups and there is huge line of sight issue from the top of the platform to the bottom where the elementals spawn. it was a clusterfuck, you couldn't move with the core so everyone need that macro to throw the core to someone at the top of the platform, that guy had to throw the core to the middle and you have to do it 4 times to get out of phase 2. not to mention you have a lock fearing striders and the tank periodically grabbing nagas that spawn. while the boss just sits there spamming forked lighting over and over and over. there are quite a few different things happening in this fight and the potential for overlap is huge. like the boss casting forked lightning multiple times in the same direction (healer panic), or ppl focusing on killing adds too much and missing the core dropping ones. ppl being LoS (trying to heal ppl at the bottom of the slope and keep LoS on ppl at the top) etc etc.


kael was just tricky because of the phases, sometimes ppl would die on the adds, like a combination of being fear bombed into conflag, or someone not paying attention and getting killed by the add that chases random ppl around (having him switch target to a nearby rogue for example who just gets one tapped). some ppl didn't grab a weapon after they became lootable or the tank didn't use the shield to absorb a pyroblast. the pheonix adds were a bit rapey and you couldn't stand next to one for more than a couple seconds without just dying.

for archimonde it was just simple that if a single person dies the boss gains a stack of whatever the buff was called and cast finger of death on the tank, if the tank died noone else could get the boss aggro and he would just keep one shotting everyone with FoD. you were given the item that gave you a 2 second slow fall and the fight consisted of trying to not die to the fires that randomly change direction (and left a dot on you if you touched them), or being punted up in the air and falling to your death. if you used the slow fall item too soon, you still fell and died, the boss gained a stack, and one shot the tank. doing any raid boss without a single death is often times a challenge someone always fails. this is the kind of boss you could potentially end up wiping 20+ times on as everyone in the raid gets their own time to fail.

I think these 3 bosses will be wipey still just because they aren't fights you can simply nuke your way through and ofc sunwell which I didn't do but I knew at the time that it was extremely tuned around the top end, who had cleared t6 before I even started t5.

there were a good amount of fights that were tough the first time because the gear you had going into it was minimal and just like classic things progressively just got easier as the raid was more and more geared. the first time you do a boss is generally the hardest mainly because you have the least amount of gear. for example going into ssc and tk with a raid clad in t4 was noticeably different to doing it with that same raid months later clad in t5. in the same way that bwl is a little bit wipey doing it in full t1 and it gets slaughtered by a raid in full t2/t2.5.

[Mosha]

If you'd bothered to read, he explicitly mentions world buffs and it was a part of what the poster in a top guild hated in vanilla. They obviously knew and used world buffs. He even mentions "At the start of Wotlk players were still a lot worse". Since when is wotlk before tbc?

If you now apply knowledge about stats and raid comp to boss mechanics it's a different question altogether. If you also remove their knowledge about classes, about the game itself, about talents, about what buttons move your character, of course it'll be hard. You could even remove knowledge about games together and it'd be hard. Maybe the players also forgot how to voice chat and organize? What's your point again?

No one is saying they will one shot muru with no knowledge. But that it's not hard and wouldn't last long.
Did you check Muru's tactics? A lot of it is even a gear and dps check, very simple tactics. Kite and nuke adds, avoid fire on ground, dispel mobs, then nuke Muru on 2nd phase. That's the whole strategy. Even normal mode bosses have been harder since Cata.
With current experience of raiding there's no difficulty at all there but it really was difficult when players were worse and didn't have experience.

I’m not reading something about classic and vanilla when I’m fucking talking about tbc. You brought up classic and vanilla like a moron when that wasn’t what I was talking about and tried to somehow make a connection between the two. There isn’t.

If you now apply knowledge about stats and raid comp to boss mechanics it's a different question altogether. If you also remove their knowledge about classes, about the game itself, about talents, about what buttons move your character, of course it'll be hard. You could even remove knowledge about games together and it'd be hard. Maybe the players also forgot how to voice chat and organize? What's your point again?

Obviously it’s tough to find the point when you have a learning disability. The poster I was originally talking to before you butted in like a child, was talking about how much better players are today and how everything will be one shot by everyone even lfr level players. I told him, the only reason they are ‘better’ is because of the past knowledge we have, if you take all of that away they aren’t just going to magically one or two shot every boss.

Also to go back to the point where you said “no one is saying muru won’t be one shot with no knowledge”, yes, the guy I was fucking talking to was which was who I was responding to until you butted in without reading a single damn thing. I mentioned multiple times obviously it’s easier than what is offered today and is going to be downed faster on average but that doesn’t mean it will be fucking one shot and steam rolled by lfr users either because that’s not going to happen.

[kukkamies]

I’m not reading something about classic and vanilla when I’m fucking talking about tbc. You brought up classic and vanilla like a moron when that wasn’t what I was talking about and tried to somehow make a connection between the two. There isn’t.



Obviously it’s tough to find the point when you have a learning disability. The poster I was originally talking to before you butted in like a child, was talking about how much better players are today and how everything will be one shot by everyone even lfr level players. I told him, the only reason they are ‘better’ is because of the past knowledge we have, if you take all of that away they aren’t just going to magically one or two shot every boss.

Also to go back to the point where you said “no one is saying muru won’t be one shot with no knowledge”, yes, the guy I was fucking talking to was which was who I was responding to until you butted in without reading a single damn thing.

Again if you'd bother to read. The question in the link is "If things like Vashj would die faster". The answer is "yes, significantly faster". Players sucked. Is Vashj TBC to you? Is wotlk after TBC to you? I was never talking about only classic. You were the one who started talking about classic mechanics, I answered to them and now they don't matter? Why did you even mention them?

I don't care if he said Muru will be one shot. You said players aren't much better now than they were back then which just isn't true. "If someone were to walk into these fights today, with literal 0 knowledge on how to do it it would take a long time" is what you said.
It seems like you don't agree with yourself anymore. Since it's not the boss knowledge anymore, but knowledge about items, stats and characters. So my job here is done clearing the mistake. Of course people who have never played the game will have difficulty.

[Mosha]

Again if you'd bother to read. The question in the link is "If things like Vashj would die faster". The answer is "yes, significantly faster". Players sucked. Is Vashj TBC to you? Is wotlk after TBC to you? I was never talking about only classic. You were the one who started talking about classic mechanics, I answered to them and now they don't matter? Why did you even mention them?

are you brain damaged? I AM NOT DISCUSSING YOUR LINK NOR IS YOUR LINK RELEVANT. Do you understand that yet? All of my points were discussing something another poster said, then you butted in. If you want to get context the scroll up and read those. Whatever you are linking me is COMPLETELY irrelevant to my points. Do you get it?

Also I never said players aren’t better now wtf are you on about? Is this why you’re arguing with me over fucking things that aren’t relevant to what I said because you think I said this?

Newsflash, I didn’t say that nor even imply it.

Here honey let me just give you one piece of advice before you embarrass yourself like this again. If you see two people arguing, either stay out of it, or read their entire argument before you butt in so something like this doesn’t happen where you don’t even fucking know what I said or what I was arguing for.

[kukkamies]

are you brain damaged? I AM NOT DISCUSSING YOUR LINK NOR IS YOUR LINK RELEVANT. Do you understand that yet? All of my points were discussing something another poster said, then you butted in. If you want to get context the scroll up and read those. Whatever you are linking me is COMPLETELY irrelevant to my points. Do you get it?

Also I never said players aren’t better now wtf are you on about? Is this why you’re arguing with me over fucking things that aren’t relevant to what I said because you think I said this?

Newsflash, I didn’t say that nor even imply it.

Here honey let me just give you one piece of advice before you embarrass yourself like this again. If you see two people arguing, either stay out of it, or read their entire argument before you butt in so something like this doesn’t happen where you don’t even fucking know what I said or what I was arguing for.

Do you need a reminder of what you were talking about. Here are your own words:
"If someone were to walk into these fights(Vashj etc...) today, with literal 0 knowledge on how to do it, it would take them a long time to down them". And an answer to "If things like Vashj would die faster today" is completely irrelevent
You said "they (current raiders) are ‘better’ is because of the past knowledge we have" And now you say it's not about knowledge But are just straight up better
And your knowledge was: "I'm not talking about a group of players who know exactly how the fight goes and watches a video from someone who has been fighting those fights for 10 years spelling it out for them, I'm saying going in completely blind it would take them a LONG time to figure out and accomplish."
And what you now say knowledge is: stats, gear, characters . Not about boss mechanics

Thanks for making my weekend