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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Thenadrys View Post
    Letting you choose how to play as opposed to setting concrete goals you feel like you have to do is hardly dictating. It actually sounds exactly like the opposite.

    If you still wanted to do them that would be 100% up to you.
    There has never been concrete goals if you don't there to be. And before you respond.... cut the shit.... blizzard doesn't have a gun to your head yelling "DO DAILIES" or "DO VISIONS" your either in a guild that doesn't need any of that or you are in the wfr with a mindset of I will do whatever it takes. So no matter what "goals" abcde all the through fucking z you will do them if you want. Stop your useless complaining and play how you want. Take 400 hours to level and walk around doing nothing IF THATS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO.

    Fucking sheep complaining about being forced to do stuff when you literally don't need to do anything.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by The Dark One View Post
    It's still a you thing my dude.

    I too am a raid leader with a busy schedule. I just played the game and got everything done without even trying.

    The issue here is that fun is subjective. If I just logged in and raided, because that we 'fun' to me, then I'd probably be in your position. But I dabble in all the content the game has to offer, and just do what I want when I want to
    To get back to the point of the thread, it directly relates to "how can I do the things I need to do as fast as possible". Before that achieve came out, I knew about Loremaster, but I had no interest in it. Loremaster has basically nothing to do with raiding, it doesn't take any skill, you don't need good gear, you just kinda wander around and in most cases use a guide to get it done. What was great was, I could ignore it. I was a raider. But over the past few expansions, they've implemented so many things that pushed people who like one aspect of the game to do another. The MoP questline had raiders suddenly doing battlegrounds. The flight master achieves have you doing all sorts of nonsense in the world. BIS essences come from all over the place depending on what you play.

    The net result of this is that you have people doing a lot more content that they don't like. So, logically, they either unsub, or try to rush through it.

    JTBC, I don't have a problem with them trying to encourage people to do other content. To me the gold standard for this was PVP gear in early MoP.

    If you had really bad gear in a slot or two at the start of MoP, you could get your weekly conquest and buy a piece of PvP gear. It wasn't as good as the pve raid gear, but it was better than heroic dungeon gear. It gave you a small boost, and something to do that could make you a bit better in the short term if you wanted, but that wasn't really necessary because you knew it was only a temporary fix. And hey, maybe it got you interested in PVP! Maybe not. It was perfect. If you already knew that you would rather be stabbed by hot pokers than do pvp, you skipped it and it was fine.

    The problem comes when there's a reward from another type of content that is impossible to get otherwise, and no good substitute exists. A great example is how the legendary cloak in MoP required you to win battlegrounds. That sucks. And it leads to people doing content they don't want to do, and leads to them trying to rush through it.

    And yes, maybe for you, you like enough of the varied content that you get everything done naturally. But that's not the case for many people. As I said above, I would never, ever, ever do a daily quest if I didn't care about the rewards. In contrast, I have done dungeons and raids numerous times when I know I can't get gear. Because I like them. And I draw a direct line from blizzard creating situations where I need to step out of the content I enjoy to "how can I do the things I need to do as fast as possible".

    Just for fun, here's how I did on loremaster in the expansions I played:

    Wotlk: 0 out of 10 achievements
    Cata: 2 out of 5. Deepholme one was required for enchant, and I wanted to see the deathwing cinematic so I did Twilight Highlands.
    Pandaland: 1 out of 6. Did Townlong Steppes somehow.

    After that I did all of them, cause flying.
    Last edited by Scrod; 2020-10-08 at 04:25 AM.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Not really. Time gates "borrowed power" etc have always existed in WoW. They have just changed forms over the years. Remember the game had 6 talent rows for 4 years. And 7 talent rows for 6 years. And the contents of talents have changed almost every expansion in some form even prior to the system we have now. It just wasn't a big deal or the "buzzword" of the time.
    Yeah they have existed - in much less imposing ways.

    We're talking about now, not 15 years ago. I dont think people want the game to regress to worse systems. Talent rows are fine.

  4. #204
    This "change" that you're experiencing is mostly a result of your own change (i.e., massive amounts of experience with the game and changing goals within the game), and not the game being too much different from before. Sure, they change a lot in this game to keep it fresh and keep players interested, but at its core it's still the same WoW that you're used to over many expansions. It's just being kept fresh with newly added stuff or other ways to play the game and multiple different goals inside the game. There's actually more to do now in the game than there was in the past. But since we as players get more and more experienced with the game, our goals inside the game also change... I for example don't care much at all anymore about things like the levelling experience. I did in the past. I care about raids now, while I did not in the past. That's myself changing a lot more than the game. The game always provided these two things, but my own focus changed. This is only natural I guess when you play a game for that long. I mean, who is more likely to be excited about the levelling or questing phase -- the player who just starts out and sees everything for the first time and doesn't know ANYTHING yet, or the player who has done this 10 times over and measures himself with other players by their raid performance?

  5. #205
    Well, you are not wrong. However I squarely put blame for this on the community.

    Every time something is added that requires "time" the community explodes in an outcry of banshee proportions because "OMG BLizz stop timegating meeee!"

    It's a sign of our time that no one wants to wait for anything anymore. Things have to be readily avaiable on demand (games, books, movies, series, even deliveries).

    As for immersion, that is difficult to achieve in an MMO.
    SWTOR had some of that in it's earlier stages with the dialogue wheel and character alignment, but of course that was mostly an illusion. The story was absolutely on rails you could only react to it differently and most of the times your reactions would be ignored anyway. Like when a certain crewmember betrayed your Sith Warrior and tries to kill you, the game does not allow you to kill them. Even if you have been a murderous entirely Dark Sided monster that killed and tortured people the entire time, the game does not allow you to force choke the life out of that guy.

    In WoW this is even more difficult because until a few years ago our characters did not even appear in the cutscenes that showed important moments and we are still essentially mute. A trope that TSW and TSWL legends rather funnily included in it's immersion by people calling you silent or shushing you when you are actually trying to say something. (Also the character might be in fact mute after the bee flew down their throat)

    In general though. I can live with what we have. I came here because of the content and gameplay after being throughly disappointed with other games handling that and I am positively surprised how much story and lore there is (especially the new HD cinematics, daaamn). Immersion is nice and fun, but it does not make for a lasting gaming experience. Pretty much like a book.
    It can have an awesome story but after you read it, there is just not much to do with it but put it in the shelf.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Scourge View Post
    I don't know why you think that getting a carry is somehow 'privileged'. Any guild that wants anyone in its roster to change classes will happily bring them along to a 10/25 man reclear or an alts run.

    Now, it's not a matter of 'skipping shit', it's having to do mandatory content grinds that make the entire game unplayable without.
    Make your mind up man, an alt run isn't a carry, because virtually everyone will need gear and that means having a minimum level of gear, and most guilds didn't want people to change classes, especially if they'd already been raiding with them and got a bunch of gear. If they did want them to change, yeah then they might bring you to an actual carry, but yeah that was a privilege not everyone got access to. It's also something you can still access today with the right guild.

    What exactly are these "mandatory grinds" you're claiming the game is unplayable without? AP? Is that it? Because it sounded like it was a larger complaint. And the problems with that peaked in early Legion. BfA hasn't been nearly as bad, and SL looks to be less bad still.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Well, you are not wrong. However I squarely put blame for this on the community.
    As people always do. Everything bad about the game is always our own fault.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by sunnycutie View Post
    That's essentially the problem with current WoW.

    It has gone from exploration and immersion in a huge fantasy RPG world to "I have this list of tasks, how can I get them done as fast and as efficiently as possible".

    If WoW ever wants to be great again, it needs to move away from tasks and chores, away from daily and weekly things to do and rerunning the same content over and over again, and towards creating more unique content that is supposed to be done once for the mere fun of it.
    WoW has become a list of chores you have to complete before you can begin enjoying the game how you want to play. Or at least that's how it used to be. Now it's an endless list of chores you'll never complete and just keep growing. It's amazing that Blizzard can't figure out why people are getting burned out.

  9. #209
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    15 years.

    I can not spend 8 hours a day like I used to do back then, Even 10 years ago or less I would spend 10 to 14 hours a day playing.
    Life changes, now I don´t have that time nor it is worth it anymore because I already did so for many years. Still want to play, so yes, you want to do the things that you must do to stay updated in wow asap.

    That way you free up space to actually play doing whatever you want, aside the mandatory daily/grind.

  10. #210
    You're assuming a lot. I was never in this game for exploration. I started because i wanted to see what happened with LK and stayed for raids. I have plenty of single player games for my exploration and immersion needs. Mmos where there are random people with random names around where no one can ever force them to pretend they're in character was never my idea of "immersion", im here for group content and have been here for it for over a decade.
    At most you could say it was about socializing and meeting new people and working with internet friends for a common goal, but even that isn't fully true.
    Last edited by Loveliest; 2020-10-08 at 09:42 AM.

  11. #211
    While it was slowly starting in TBC when badges and dailies were added, it really didn't start getting its legs until Wrath. That's when they added the daily badges from 5 mans and people just wanted to get it done every day. It was easy content where geared players could have no regard for lesser geared newer players due to ilevel increase and the fact heroics were undertuned to begin with.

    With MoP and later the dailies really started offering things you needed so that just added onto it.

    The push for speed is to get these things out of the way so players can do what they woukd really like to do, but they were also added because players were burning through everything and then quitting.

    Basically the only way to kill it is to make things more difficult and remove the daily reward, but as Cata showed that doesn't make players happy either.

    Frankly if you want to play an MMO for exploration and immersion you need a sandbox MMO, but good ones are pretty rare.

  12. #212
    Ironically, the new expansion was delayed just because of people who are "how could we do things as fast as possible"

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by oblakoff View Post
    Ironically the new expansion was delayed just because of people who are "how could we do things as fast as possible"
    The expansion was delayed because Blizzard announced the release for a date that they just weren't able to make.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by sunnycutie View Post
    The expansion was delayed because Blizzard announced the release for a date that they just weren't able to make.
    They should have axed the date as soon as Covid hit, but like with most companies they feel like they can work their way out of a hole.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by sunnycutie View Post
    As people always do. Everything bad about the game is always our own fault.
    Well, in some cases it is true. This being one of them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Armourboy View Post
    They should have axed the date as soon as Covid hit, but like with most companies they feel like they can work their way out of a hole.
    When Covid hit, we did not even have a date? O.o... it was told after the 4 animated short just a few weeks back.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    What I'd ideally want is a better group finder, where you could automatically filter on things like AOTC instead of just on ilvl. I think that would make pugging a lot more practical because it would encourage people to group with others on a similar level. Also I think the design of some mythic bosses, while not hard, is basically designed to make pugging impossible - it's just impractical to progress on Xanesh as a pug.

    I think you're suggesting that I start a guild? I'm talking about how I can't spend regularly scheduled time in game and you think I should start a guild? Lol.

    Honestly, this doesn't sound like a MMORPG to me. It sounds like a PvE Moba or something.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by DSRilk View Post
    I don't believe this is correct. Meta first really became popularized in MtG when it first came out. You played the game, but then consistent decks started to form, and thus arose the metagame. The game that involved figuring out not what deck was best, but what deck was best given the current state of tournaments. What you were most likely to play against. It had/has nothing to do with efficiency - it has everything to do with the game outside the game. I.e. the metagame. In this sense it is EXACTLY like metacognition. Cognition being thought, metacognition being specifically thoughts about thoughts. While some people may use it to mean efficiency in some contexts, that's not where it came from.

    On topic... What you're describing is an RPG not an MMORPG. Try Skyrim, Witcher, etc. If you want multi-player RPGs, try Divinity and Divinity II. WoW has been this way since its inception as others have said. Additionally, WoW can still be played that way - just stop playing once you've taken your time doing all the quests, exploring the new expansion, etc.
    Ok. It’s still an acronym.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Well, in some cases it is true. This being one of them.

    - - - Updated - - -



    When Covid hit, we did not even have a date? O.o... it was told after the 4 animated short just a few weeks back.
    I'm guessing that was a date that had been decided on for a while and they thought they could keep it. Like I said, they always believe they can work their way out of it.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Apanonar View Post
    WoW doesn't want to be great again, it wants to keep its paypigs on a treadmill.
    Sure, but not like classic was any different - Its maybe even worse...People rush there much more if you ask me. Just look at the speed runs in raids...I played the game for 30 days at 60 and by then I had seen same behavior or worse as retail. And its likely the same in all MMO's.
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  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But you don't miss out anything as long as you do it during the same expansion. If you are still struggling, or consuming content, by the time the next tier and seasonal catch up is released you don't have to move on. You choose to as a player. You can't keep saying that Blizzard needs to allow you to keep doing previous tier content while actively choosing as a player to move on.
    Right, I forgot if you CHOOSE not to play, you're somehow still consuming content despite choosing not to consume content.

    Choosing not to play, means you've missed content. Yes, thank you for admitting that. You want to know what you didn't do by choosing not to play Vanilla or TBC? Miss content. Wrath was technically the first time content was ever 'reused' in a way where it wasn't available in it's old form afterwards. (Naxx and Onyxia.)

    And people who started in Wrath? Never got to experience old Naxx or Ony. Never got to try for the rewards. It was a problem then - It's a problem now. Why make content just to remove it later? What is the point when the content already exists?

    If you must preserve some level of difficulty, make a premade set for that content - Like a Mage Tower set for after Legion, which saves everything exactly as it needs to be, and let people do it after the fact. They have scaling which they can customize to their liking, I don't see why this is somehow impossible.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

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