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  1. #161
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razorice View Post
    my daily gaming chores
    That fact that people commonly consider them chores is the problem in and of itself... Something so tedious and boring that most people consider it a chore probly doesn't belong in the game to begin with.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by sunnycutie View Post
    That's essentially the problem with current WoW.

    It has gone from exploration and immersion in a huge fantasy RPG world to "I have this list of tasks, how can I get them done as fast and as efficiently as possible".

    If WoW ever wants to be great again, it needs to move away from tasks and chores, away from daily and weekly things to do and rerunning the same content over and over again, and towards creating more unique content that is supposed to be done once for the mere fun of it.
    Maybe this is how it plays for you, but this is not the game I play. Try taking a step away from wow or taking a more casual approach to mmos in general.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterymask View Post
    Blizz TRIED to stop this..community wasn't having it..
    Blizz is still TRYING to stop this..
    They're TRYING to stop it the wrong way. The problem is people oogling rewards behind activities they otherwise wouldn't want to do.

    Want to be strong in PvP? Gotta raid or do m+ for the best stuff!

    Want to be strong in raid? Gotta grind m+, world quests, and islands!

    The issue is no separation of rewards and what those rewards are valuable in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    That fact that people commonly consider them chores is the problem in and of itself... Something so tedious and boring that most people consider it a chore probly doesn't belong in the game to begin with.
    At the very least, it doesn't have any business trying to entice us to do it.
    Last edited by BeepBoo; 2020-10-08 at 02:16 AM.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by sunnycutie View Post
    That's essentially the problem with current WoW.

    It has gone from exploration and immersion in a huge fantasy RPG world to "I have this list of tasks, how can I get them done as fast and as efficiently as possible".

    If WoW ever wants to be great again, it needs to move away from tasks and chores, away from daily and weekly things to do and rerunning the same content over and over again, and towards creating more unique content that is supposed to be done once for the mere fun of it.


    You know what. I didn't think I'd agree reading the headline, because, well, you can still do those things if you want. But they have become largely pointless and unrewarded. Perhaps it's the nature of the game when we have stuff like achievements and WoWhead that people will just look up whatever they need and then minmax it.

    This is one of the reasons why, since WoW's inception, I have argued for dungeons with random content. I feel like Torghast is a leap forward, but it could be so much more. Mount drops and stuff should also be super random to the point that there's no point farming them.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    At the very least, it doesn't have any business trying to entice us to do it.
    Definitely.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Players aren't going to continue to do content that isn't useful to them. Blizzard needs to make old content useful if they want players to play at their own pace - Otherwise, they're simultaneously telling people they don't have to keep up, but they'll miss things if they don't.
    But you don't miss out anything as long as you do it during the same expansion. If you are still struggling, or consuming content, by the time the next tier and seasonal catch up is released you don't have to move on. You choose to as a player. You can't keep saying that Blizzard needs to allow you to keep doing previous tier content while actively choosing as a player to move on.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Doing that in current day WoW means you miss out on literally all of the content of the expansion. There is no sub-max-level content in current day expansions.
    There was no sub-max level content in past expansions either. Your friends just never consumed it the same as they would know. The same as they still could. I just finished the jelly grind for the Alliance bee. I didn't miss out on anything by not doing it right away when it came out. Content doesn't magically disappear just because a new tier out. Change your perception instead of blaming the game.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Until Legion, I just leveled however I felt like. I wandered around and did the quests that popped up. When I got bored I did a dungeon.
    This sounds like me. Been playing WoW for 15 years. Never enjoyed having an agenda I felt like I had to fulfill. I think Blizz made a mistake giving people concrete goals to fulfill. Those who are very goal oriented will complete them, and unsubscribe.

    I think MMORPGs are the most fun when they are "choose your own adventure".

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    1) This is an issue with the community more so than the game
    2) It has basically always been this. The fundamental nature hasn't changed since...Wrath at least. Maybe before but I don't really remember endgame BC

    - - - Updated - - -



    This here. We saw an expansion that had little reason to log in at max level.
    Yeah, BC was the same. You had Sha'tari Skyguard and Ogri'la dailies, but back then you could only do 10. Then once you had 280 flying you had the Netherwing who had nearly the cap on their own so you had to choose which ones you could do, and that was it for the day. The Sunwell patch added a dozen new dailies, but increased the cap to 25, where it remained until MoP. Hell, Icecrown had like 4 other hubs besides the flying ship, tournament grounds, and Shadow Vault where you could pick up dailies.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Thenadrys View Post
    This sounds like me. Been playing WoW for 15 years. Never enjoyed having an agenda I felt like I had to fulfill. I think Blizz made a mistake giving people concrete goals to fulfill. Those who are very goal oriented will complete them, and unsubscribe.

    I think MMORPGs are the most fun when they are "choose your own adventure".
    Sadly, those goals / targets were introduced to protect players from themselves. Im not saying it was the right thing, but the small percentage of "no-lifers" who took advantage of any open ended progression paths created a scenario where playing 15+ hours a day was considered a "requirement" by the very top end players.

    Again, please dont think im making excuses or supporting Blizzard here - i have advocated for more open ended / less time gated gameplay for years now. I have erratic spare time to play, and quite enjoy thinking "ok shit, i cant play for the next 4 days due to work, however i have all of saturday afternoon and evening free, a box of beers, and i cant wait to play catchup for XYZ hours and see some real progression over that time".

    Reality is, it was Blizzard that implemented these gates, in reaction to what they saw as an issue, and honestly, some of the high end playerbase agree with them. For them, playing 5 hours a day to stay "current" is better than playing 15 hours a day to stay current. For a lot of the playerbase, they feel like they have had their choice to play 15 hours one day a week taken away.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Thenadrys View Post
    This sounds like me. Been playing WoW for 15 years. Never enjoyed having an agenda I felt like I had to fulfill. I think Blizz made a mistake giving people concrete goals to fulfill. Those who are very goal oriented will complete them, and unsubscribe.

    I think MMORPGs are the most fun when they are "choose your own adventure".
    I choose not to waste time leveling. That is my adventure. Why do you feel the need to dictate how I play?

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Caerrona View Post
    I choose not to waste time leveling. That is my adventure. Why do you feel the need to dictate how I play?
    Letting you choose how to play as opposed to setting concrete goals you feel like you have to do is hardly dictating. It actually sounds exactly like the opposite.

    If you still wanted to do them that would be 100% up to you.

  12. #172
    Officers Academy Prof. Byleth's Avatar
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    Personally, I don't stress about all the things I need to do in the day. I just log in and have fun.

    I still get everything done and am up to date *shrug*
    Here is something to believe in!

  13. #173
    You are right, but you are mistaking WHY its like that.
    Its not because the development made it that way.
    Its because the community made it that way.

    You can see on any controversial topic people who are essentially saying "I want to be able to play the game less."
    And they are LISTENING to these people!?

    Quite scary.

    Either way, just go see how Classic was played especially in the opening months.
    Its just a product of the year we live in.

    Not going to be something that can be changed.
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  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Reality is, it was Blizzard that implemented these gates, in reaction to what they saw as an issue, and honestly, some of the high end playerbase agree with them. For them, playing 5 hours a day to stay "current" is better than playing 15 hours a day to stay current. For a lot of the playerbase, they feel like they have had their choice to play 15 hours one day a week taken away.

    I just think you should be able to get whatever you need to get in order to be able to do the content you want to do... doing whatever you want to do. If people want to be goal oriented, that's fine. Personally I love Torghast, but I don't think people who don't, should be forced to do it. Gear-based progression is also a pretty lame measure of progression.

    I don't PVP, but if you want to PVP and then go to end-game raids you should be able to do that IMO. Bring the player, not the gear or playtime.

  15. #175
    I believe this is because of years and years and years of blizzard putting things in the game that people did not enjoy doing but did them anyway to progress their characters, they became chores and in what way do people perceive chores? Get them done as fast as possible so you can continue on with doing the stuff you want to do.

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Again, this is where I go back to the original flight achieve. A lot of people shrugged and said, well if you play you should have most of that stuff done already. I played a lot at that time, I was raid leader in a guild that was doing a few mythic bosses.

    Here's how I stood on that achieve:

    Draenor Explorer: I had a few of the zones but didn't have the achieve. Had to get it done, didn't take long.
    Loremaster: I didn't have a single zone wide achieve. As I said above, it took about 15 hours doing pointless leveling content on a mythic geared character to get it done.
    Collect 100 treasures: I had 3. No joke. I had collected 3 total treasures. I had to go out there, download Draenor Notes or whatever it was called, and find NINETY SEVEN GODDAMN TREASURES.

    On top of that, I had to get revered in Tanaan with everyone else.

    The point of this story is that, before the achieve came out, I was logging in and having fun. But my progress on all those items is pretty definitive evidence that I wouldn't do any of that content if it weren't for the reward. I don't care about treasures, or loremaster. I never did dailies unless I had to.

    So it's not just about logging in and doing what's fun. It changes what you do. If I had played WoD for 5 years, I still wouldn't have had 100 treasures or Loremaster. I would have just kept running Blackrock Foundry and gearing alts.
    It's still a you thing my dude.

    I too am a raid leader with a busy schedule. I just played the game and got everything done without even trying.

    The issue here is that fun is subjective. If I just logged in and raided, because that we 'fun' to me, then I'd probably be in your position. But I dabble in all the content the game has to offer, and just do what I want when I want to
    Here is something to believe in!

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Thenadrys View Post
    Letting you choose how to play as opposed to setting concrete goals you feel like you have to do is hardly dictating. It actually sounds exactly like the opposite.

    If you still wanted to do them that would be 100% up to you.
    There has never been concrete goals if you don't there to be. And before you respond.... cut the shit.... blizzard doesn't have a gun to your head yelling "DO DAILIES" or "DO VISIONS" your either in a guild that doesn't need any of that or you are in the wfr with a mindset of I will do whatever it takes. So no matter what "goals" abcde all the through fucking z you will do them if you want. Stop your useless complaining and play how you want. Take 400 hours to level and walk around doing nothing IF THATS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO.

    Fucking sheep complaining about being forced to do stuff when you literally don't need to do anything.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Not really. Time gates "borrowed power" etc have always existed in WoW. They have just changed forms over the years. Remember the game had 6 talent rows for 4 years. And 7 talent rows for 6 years. And the contents of talents have changed almost every expansion in some form even prior to the system we have now. It just wasn't a big deal or the "buzzword" of the time.
    Yeah they have existed - in much less imposing ways.

    We're talking about now, not 15 years ago. I dont think people want the game to regress to worse systems. Talent rows are fine.

  19. #179
    This "change" that you're experiencing is mostly a result of your own change (i.e., massive amounts of experience with the game and changing goals within the game), and not the game being too much different from before. Sure, they change a lot in this game to keep it fresh and keep players interested, but at its core it's still the same WoW that you're used to over many expansions. It's just being kept fresh with newly added stuff or other ways to play the game and multiple different goals inside the game. There's actually more to do now in the game than there was in the past. But since we as players get more and more experienced with the game, our goals inside the game also change... I for example don't care much at all anymore about things like the levelling experience. I did in the past. I care about raids now, while I did not in the past. That's myself changing a lot more than the game. The game always provided these two things, but my own focus changed. This is only natural I guess when you play a game for that long. I mean, who is more likely to be excited about the levelling or questing phase -- the player who just starts out and sees everything for the first time and doesn't know ANYTHING yet, or the player who has done this 10 times over and measures himself with other players by their raid performance?

  20. #180
    Well, you are not wrong. However I squarely put blame for this on the community.

    Every time something is added that requires "time" the community explodes in an outcry of banshee proportions because "OMG BLizz stop timegating meeee!"

    It's a sign of our time that no one wants to wait for anything anymore. Things have to be readily avaiable on demand (games, books, movies, series, even deliveries).

    As for immersion, that is difficult to achieve in an MMO.
    SWTOR had some of that in it's earlier stages with the dialogue wheel and character alignment, but of course that was mostly an illusion. The story was absolutely on rails you could only react to it differently and most of the times your reactions would be ignored anyway. Like when a certain crewmember betrayed your Sith Warrior and tries to kill you, the game does not allow you to kill them. Even if you have been a murderous entirely Dark Sided monster that killed and tortured people the entire time, the game does not allow you to force choke the life out of that guy.

    In WoW this is even more difficult because until a few years ago our characters did not even appear in the cutscenes that showed important moments and we are still essentially mute. A trope that TSW and TSWL legends rather funnily included in it's immersion by people calling you silent or shushing you when you are actually trying to say something. (Also the character might be in fact mute after the bee flew down their throat)

    In general though. I can live with what we have. I came here because of the content and gameplay after being throughly disappointed with other games handling that and I am positively surprised how much story and lore there is (especially the new HD cinematics, daaamn). Immersion is nice and fun, but it does not make for a lasting gaming experience. Pretty much like a book.
    It can have an awesome story but after you read it, there is just not much to do with it but put it in the shelf.

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