Proof, that players must "complain" and "whine" whenever Blizzard make fishy moves.

[Dracullus]

Not sure why you say this. Ion himself has linked to MMOC forums on his Twitter.

https://twitter.com/watcherdev/statu...88507806576640

It's obvious they do. People that say "devs don't check forums" or "devs don't play WoW" are just completely detached from reality.

[Aggressive]

This is the proof that we can help Blizzard understand what ideas are clearly bad, and thus help them to make the game better.



Without "whiners" today on reddit, wowhead, mmo-champion and twitter we would have end up with this dumb pointless mechanic of Covenant use restriction.

This also kind of bad cause losers and babies will also use this to try and get a class nerfed when that nerf is NOT even justifiable. Example. warlock beats warrior in BG. Said shitty warrior goes to the forum to cry that he got his ass handed to him by a warlock in cloth.

Another example rogue beats and kills pally. Said pally runs to the forums along with his butt buddies to start post cause a rogue in leather handed him his ass on a platter. I just don't think Blizzard should give in so fast to whiners and babies.

[Krimzin]

I have never seen so many people Stop playing the game as I did in BFA. I had multiple Guilds just disappear after a couple months of BFA being out, never to return. Every single one of my friends who have played for over 12 years, all quit. New friends i made in BFA just kept quitting after a bit because BFA was so fucking horrible. Nothing in BFA felt rewarding, fun or engaging at all . The story was complete shit, armor design was complete shit so I didnt even have Transmog sets to go for.

I saw people leaving toward the end, which always happens.
I think players in general will always play when there is something to work toward, Gear, Tier Achievements and Boss kills. After those things are done a player has to like the game and enjoy who they are playing with in order to keep playing.
Ive always found that if you are in a good guild that focuses on doing things together, people tend to stick around longer. If you guild is made up of people who log in to raid and then log off, you are in an pug. Pug Guilds never last. They do great til everyone gets AOTC or CE, then everyone stops logging in or leaves the guild outright.

As for BFA, I had no major issues with it. Yes it had things that sucked but so has every expansion since the beginning.

- - - Updated - - -

It's obvious they do. People that say "devs don't check forums" or "devs don't play WoW" are just completely detached from reality.

An influencers opinion is worth 1000 player opinions. Devs watch streams on a regular basis. Not going to say Devs don't read forums, but they dont spend hours searching through posts to see what people are pissed off about today. They make scroll through and read something that catches their eye, but that is about it. They have social media specialist who give them highlights of player atmosphere and overall state of the game. They compile these from most big name sites and of course reddit/twitter. A single players voice means nothing, as it is rarely heard if not at all.

[facefist]

Ah, the "you replied thus I am right" argument. You felt the need to reply as well.

Also, I disagree.

Whine more kid boohoo he hurt me by pointin out that I'm one of those people I qq'd about

[Eurhetemec]

Not every complaint deserves whining about.

Well said.

Also it's helpful, if you're going to complain/whine, to do so in a straightforward and clear way, rather than giant walls of text "proving" it's a bad idea (unless you truly have something that needs that - which is rare), or just a generalized "Blizz sux" approach.

[korijenkins]

Not every complaint deserves whining about.

This statement makes little to no sense.

[ceall]

Well it took only 4 years of whining for shadow priests to get rid of the balancing nightmare that was legion and bfa voidform.

And about a decade to get a proper dps cooldown (since dark archangel got removed with the mop pre patch).

[xuros]

That is not always the case and that doesn't mean that was the deciding factor. It is better for them to put it in the post for better PR. For all we know it was just a week of testing to see how players interacted on the beta. Just like not everything deserves people complaining about.

You are the resident Blizz "White Knight"! He/She didn't say complain about EVERYTHING! I've seen your posts on the other threads supporting blizz in everything questionable that they are doing. The OPs correct in this that players need to make their complaints heard when blizz makes decisions like this. Its the reason this shit xpack has been pushed back to hopefully fix some of their bullshit decisions. I was looking forward to never bothering with BFA again but after dredging though this beta I am at the point of just saying fuck retail all the way and messing around in classic instead.

Yeah and btw with Blizzards track record I feel safe in saying that the players bitching up a storm about this WAS the deciding factor with this being reverted.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Ah yes, because player whining has never led to them making BAD decisions.

It's a case-by-case type of deal at best.

[huth]

This is the proof that we can help Blizzard understand what ideas are clearly bad, and thus help them to make the game better.

No, it isn't. Mostly because there is no causative link to complaining and whining specificially. Could be that they based that decision on the more level headed feedback they got on the topic just as easily.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

You should of course express your opinion.
You should not continue over and over again to try to force Blizzard to make the game the way YOU want it though.
That's where the line is drawn.

"Whine" all you want, but make sure you are willing to think about the game from the perspective of what other's want, including development.

This specific situation was OBVIOUSLY a bad idea.
Ion posting this way is probably him gloating to other employees more than anything.
He posts so infrequently right?

Others were like "we should restrict it now so people don't complain in the future."
He might have been like "Not sure that will work."
And others may have pressed for it.
He was probably like "How about this then..."

And the rest is history!

[BeepBoo]

Not every complaint deserves whining about.

That's really up to the playerbase to decide for each of themselves.

No, it isn't. Mostly because there is no causative link to complaining and whining specificially. Could be that they based that decision on the more level headed feedback they got on the topic just as easily.

This isn't the only instance. There was something they were considering doing to ret either mid legion or right at the start of BFA (can't recall any more). There was a massive thread complaining about it in wow paladin subforums. Blue dropped in, said almost literally in as few words "Wish granted. We'll revert the change before this patch goes live."

[xuros]

Sure, let's just stay stuck in the era of Classic. That would eventually turn a lot of players off. Yes, you can "but Classic is popular!" it will still get old and stale of doing the same thing. Homogenizing classes to some points helps push the game otherwise we would have the hybrid tax and everything which would be bad for the game in the end.

But yeah, the style of Classic is so perfect we already have people going "When will TBC launch?" "When will Wrath launch" which steered away from the practices in Classic. One (yes one, not all) of the main reasons people miss Classic as much as they do is because they can't revisit a lot of that content like they can the other expansions.

The reason for this is lots of those players have very fond memories of raiding/playing/pvping in those xpacks. For me the chance of TBC coming later was the reason i decided to enter the classic craze. My god I loved those raids.

[Marrilaife]

I do remember the days when there was a point in bringing my mage to a fight that didn't involve vending machine duty.

Mages and Warlocks were the 2 best dps in 8.3. Oh, and apparently warriors: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/24
All the classes that were good in "ye olde times".

It's not a class balance issue here it's an L2P issue.

[Eurhetemec]

This also kind of bad cause losers and babies will also use this to try and get a class nerfed when that nerf is NOT even justifiable. Example. warlock beats warrior in BG. Said shitty warrior goes to the forum to cry that he got his ass handed to him by a warlock in cloth.

Another example rogue beats and kills pally. Said pally runs to the forums along with his butt buddies to start post cause a rogue in leather handed him his ass on a platter. I just don't think Blizzard should give in so fast to whiners and babies.

It's deeply ironic too, because some of the most important people in WoW's development have been precisely the kind of whiner/baby that gets a class nerfed.

Specifically, Tigole, i.e. Jeffery Kaplan, lead campaigns to blackmail/intimidate the developers of EverQuest into nerfing certain classes. It wasn't just on the forums, or even harassing devs over email (as people did back then), he literally organised people intentionally causing EverQuest servers to crash in order to blackmail them. In WoW, if you tried this, even back in 2004/5, you'd have been ultra-banned from orbit. But Kaplan succeeded, and the devs nerfed the classes he wanted nerfed. Rob Pardo was friends with Kaplan during this, and then ended up hiring him, despite Kaplan having essentially no qualifications or experience beyond playing EverQuest a lot and harassing the hell out of the devs lol.

Kaplan's behaviour was so bad on the early WoW forums that he had to stop posting for several years. It's probably the only WoW dev who was effectively banned from his own forums (though it seems more like he was probably asked to stop rather than banned). He also dropped Tigole as a name (indeed I suspect now he's probably a bit embarrassed he ever used it lol).

He did grow up and seems decent now, but wow, it was quite a thing.

[Kithelle]

& obviously their experience with what they're complaining about. As someone who doesn't play arena at a high or even a medium level, any comment I have on arena balance/rewards should probably be ignored.

Trouble is how do you know what level someone is on when they complain, like most people complaining about the covenant abilities talk like they're the 1% of WoW and they need every single thing absolutely perfect because they're pushing the limits. Fact is they aren't and losing a little dps from a single ability choice isn't going to make or break them...and if they struggle because of one ability it may not be because of the ability and more because of the limitations of the player or the group.

[Nyel]

This is good news.

They’ve added so many bad and dumb changes this week, I hope they revert all of them because player feedback has been overwhelmingly negative.

If these changes are the outcome of the delay, better release Shadowlands tomorrow.

[Thage]

One (yes one, not all) of the main reasons people miss Classic as much as they do is because they can't revisit a lot of that content like they can the other expansions.

This brings up an interesting but tangential side note: they missed a golden opportunity with Chromie Time to restore the old maps and original dungeon/raid experiences that were replaced over time from Classic. Logically, Blizzard should be encouraging bleed-over between the two versions of the game to keep players subscribed, since more time spent playing one version or the other or both means more time spent paying a subscription or buying tokens, which in turn encourages token-sellers to buy the tokens which means even more revenue for the company. It's the definition of a win-win. And I would guarantee at least some subset of the Classic audience at the moment is playing it because they preferred the smaller-scope leveling storylines (scope as far as your character's importance in the world, the massive world-spanning quest lines notwithstanding). The ability to pick the older versions of replaced/updated dungeons and raids would also be nice for players nostalgic for them but who prefer the modern gameplay systems over Classic's.

Again, to me, it sounds like the definition of a win-win, especially since Classic already did the heavy lifting in getting the old maps and dungeons/raids working on a modern client already, meaning much less work would be required to reimplement them on a Shadowlands client.

- - - Updated - - -

He did grow up and seems decent now, but wow, it was quite a thing.

Judging by how he presents himself these days on social media, the Overwatch forums, and update videos, he's definitely moved past those days as a person, unlike his fellow EQ shit-stirrer Afrasiabi, who to this day seems to delight in being an ass (and who displays the unbridled charisma of mayonnaise left out in the sun too long).

[huth]

This isn't the only instance. There was something they were considering doing to ret either mid legion or right at the start of BFA (can't recall any more). There was a massive thread complaining about it in wow paladin subforums. Blue dropped in, said almost literally in as few words "Wish granted. We'll revert the change before this patch goes live."

Except neither of those can be causally linked to whining and complaining specificially. There's other ways to raise and voice concerns.

Besides, even if those two were... that's not remotely enough to establish statistical significance.

[crazyswayzee]

That is not always the case and that doesn't mean that was the deciding factor. It is better for them to put it in the post for better PR. For all we know it was just a week of testing to see how players interacted on the beta. Just like not everything deserves people complaining about.

it was the reason they changed it. they even said they were not sure and the community gave them the reason with their feedback to change it