Proof, that players must "complain" and "whine" whenever Blizzard make fishy moves.

[Raelbo]

This is the proof that we can help Blizzard understand what ideas are clearly bad, and thus help them to make the game better.

No it doesn't. All it proves is that Blizzard might respond and make changes based on popular demand. It certainly does not prove that whining and complaining are necessary or even have value.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly believe in constructive feedback, just saying that whining and complaining aren't a necessity thereof.

Without "whiners" today on reddit, wowhead, mmo-champion and twitter we would have end up with this dumb pointless mechanic of Covenant use restriction.

Well whether or not it was dumb and pointless is debatable. I've certainly seen no consensus either way. What is evident is that a significant number of players think it was a big deal. To me personally it just felt like a big fuss over nothing of consequence. And I guess Blizzard agreed, hence why they had no real reason to fight it.

[Donald Hellscream]

Sure, but did those "whiners" express their concern in a concise and constructive manner, without resorting to excessive use of hyperbole?

Because then it isn't whining. The problem is people who throw a fit and just say " DONT WANT THAT " without offering any insight into why that specific thing might be bad for the game.

[Raven]

Nah this isnt proof, Blizzard never listen i seen that being said countless times on this site, so this change is only becouse Blizzard didnt like the other way and not becouse people complained.

[Toybox]

Trouble is how do you know what level someone is on when they complain, like most people complaining about the covenant abilities talk like they're the 1% of WoW and they need every single thing absolutely perfect because they're pushing the limits. Fact is they aren't and losing a little dps from a single ability choice isn't going to make or break them...and if they struggle because of one ability it may not be because of the ability and more because of the limitations of the player or the group.

If they're complaining through official Blizzard channels then it should be pretty easy for Blizzard to know. As for MMO champ posters without any link to their profile, they could be hardstuck in LFR or they could be trialing for Limit, it's impossible to tell.

[StillMcfuu]

This is a case where everyone, literally every single person said this was a stupid idea.

I agree with the sentiment that this was such a bad idea it really makes me wonder who actually had the opinion it should even be tested and why they are in the position to influence that kind of implementation.

[Kallisto]

It does not need to go that far. It should be based on a simple question: is it fun for the players?

For example: Is disabling legion artifacts and legendaries fun for the players? No. Then Why do it? Why not just keep them enabled while in Legion content instead?

That's assuming players agree on anything. In wow the only thing players seem to agree on is how much they hate each other and can't agree on anything.

[Sinyc]

This is the proof that we can help Blizzard understand what ideas are clearly bad, and thus help them to make the game better.

No it's not. There are many "issues" that people complain about online that aren't actual issues that Blizz needs to fix. There is a reason the people complaining online don't work at Blizzard with the ability to drive the direction of the game... Because they aren't qualified and/or competent enough to do so.....

[Baneto]

Itt : people that believe that whining without reading the full post = feedback

I know you're trying to be funny on my behalf, but Im not referring to the OP but to certain other users in the thread.

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No it's not. There are many "issues" that people complain about online that aren't actual issues that Blizz needs to fix. There is a reason the people complaining online don't work at Blizzard with the ability to drive the direction of the game... Because they aren't qualified and/or competent enough to do so.....

Not working at Blizzard =/= Cannot provide feedback about the game.

Come on dude, I understand you love the company but please.

[huth]

it was the reason they changed it. they even said they were not sure and the community gave them the reason with their feedback to change it

The post you're replying to literally says they put that part in there for PR reasons. Which i don't exactly have trouble believing, although it's likely players not liking it did in fact play a role if it really was a contentious issue even among devs. If everything else is even, might as well go with the one that gets you less yelling.

[Katchii]

There is a very distinct difference between "whining and complaining" and "feedback."

[Mardux]

Paying customers are entitled to complain over whatever they want... it depends on the magnitude of said complaint by the amount of those complaining...

They never said they weren't entitled (convenient word usage right there) to complain about everything (which is what tends to happen, even when they are given exactly what they asked for in their last complaint).

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I know you're trying to be funny on my behalf, but Im not referring to the OP but to certain other users in the thread.

- - - Updated - - -


Not working at Blizzard =/= Cannot provide feedback about the game.

Come on dude, I understand you love the company but please.

Come on dude, one doesn't have to "love the company" to use logic.

[Darknessvamp]

I'm not sure about that, wouldn't have Personal Loot forced on us now if it wasn't for the five people who complained and threw a tantrum on the forums that they had "earned" the Loot they lost in a need before greed roll during a Dungeon Finder run back in WoD after people had already complained about the forced personal loot feeling like complete and utter shit and was thoroughly unrewarding in LFD and already been reverted once.

Now we have that forced as the only system allowed and look at how Guilds don't like it and how quickly it kills the Dungeon Finder pool every expansion.

[BeepBoo]

Besides, even if those two were... that's not remotely enough to establish statistical significance.

Point is: significant or not, there is a chance it has an impact, and that chance (whatever it is) is enough to warrant "complaining" as long as someone disagrees with it and decides to take the time and do so.

[Eurhetemec]

Judging by how he presents himself these days on social media, the Overwatch forums, and update videos, he's definitely moved past those days as a person, unlike his fellow EQ shit-stirrer Afrasiabi, who to this day seems to delight in being an ass (and who displays the unbridled charisma of mayonnaise left out in the sun too long).

Yeah I was trying to think who the other one who was involved in the EQ stuff was, was and that was Afrasiabi. They do manage to mostly keep him out of the spotlight at least, and whilst he does seem to enjoy being an ass, he was never the nuclear-grade flame-warrior of the forums that Kaplan was. You'd have some reasonable, even boring debate about some mechanic or whatever back then, and then suddenly "Tigole" would make a post and he's calling everyone in thread morons and shrieking that he can't believe how dumb some people are and so on, and often picking on specific people too - who if they respond similarly, would get forum-banned lol (I was never that dumb but I saw people get it that way). Then the mods would often have to just lock the thread essentially for the protection of the people other than Tigole lol. But yeah Kaplan got better at least - which is nice, because it shows no matter how awful a flame-warrior/rage-beast you are, you CAN get better (I think you have to want to though).

Chilton had some outbursts on the early forums too, but they were never quite as insulting, just really dismissive/condescending. The best was when some guy did a long post that analyzed the first honor/PvP rank system they put in, said how it would go wrong, how people would abuse, and what the issues with it would be, and Chilton turned up and made this big post where you could practically hear him sighing and see him rolling his eyes, where he just said this guy was a silly naysayer and dismissed all his opinions. Then literally everything played out like the guy said it would.

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I'm not sure about that, wouldn't have Personal Loot forced on us now if it wasn't for the five people who complained and threw a tantrum on the forums that they had "earned" the Loot they lost in a need before greed roll during a Dungeon Finder run back in WoD after people had already complained about the forced personal loot feeling like complete and utter shit and was thoroughly unrewarding in LFD and already been reverted once.

Now we have that forced as the only system allowed and look at how Guilds don't like it and how quickly it kills the Dungeon Finder pool every expansion.

I don't think that's what happened, mate.

Blizzard had been unhappy with WoW's loot system for a long time, had said so several times, and had fiddled with elements of it a number of times. This wasn't some one-off change or something, this was an issue they'd considered for a long time. It was in the game as an option for a long time before it became the only approach, and there's no way Blizzard didn't look at the metrics in terms of what people are using. It's also beneficial to Blizzard, because it cuts down on a ton of customer-service stuff.

Claiming it happened because a few people complained in WoD is just pretending.

[Krimzin]

Whine more kid boohoo he hurt me by pointin out that I'm one of those people I qq'd about

I never understood the use of the work Kid as a put down. You make an assumption that the poster is younger but just by looking at how long hes been a member here.. since 2009, he isnt. Common sense goes a long way.
--- snip ---

[Eurhetemec]

I agree with the sentiment that this was such a bad idea it really makes me wonder who actually had the opinion it should even be tested and why they are in the position to influence that kind of implementation.

This seems pretty silly and unrealistic about how businesses work.

There isn't a software/game company in the world that's been operating for more than a few years hasn't had some sort of majorly BAD IDEA-type deal in an alpha/beta version of their product. Many successful companies have fucking terrible ideas appear in alphas and betas.

Sometimes it's also really unclear how the general audience of your game will respond, too, and the best way to find out is just to put something in the game (in alpha/beta) to see. Hell, companies like Netflix and Facebook do this live, not even with alpha/beta products (they just only roll it out to some customers and see what happens).

Blizzard have always had a bit of a problem with an echo-chamber culture re: certain ideas. At least this one didn't go live. But certainly this wasn't one person going "sounds good" and enforcing it. People were agreeing that it should be tested. At least it wasn't something they just made like, like RealID (which is in the top ten dumbest ideas Blizzard have ever publicly had - and was definitely echo-chamber thinking, because they didn't realize that basically anyone who had an apparently-female or "foreign-sounding" name was about to get a whole bunch of harassment. Still laughing about the Blizzard guy who said you couldn't possibly doxx him from his RealID, and then got doxxed entirely in like 10 minutes from just that).

[Thelxi]

They solved a problem they created themselves a very short while ago, and convinced thousands of idiots that they listen to their feedback. Fucking insanity. This is how Trump got elected.

[Bellows]

I think it's important to the game that we allow Blizz to try out ideas and experiment a little without some grand show of histrionics from the playerbase. Some ideas will fail and some ideas will succeed, but if we as a community don't engage in rational structured conversation then I fear we will have a game where it's not worth it to the Devs to keep trying out new things. If that happens, the game will stagnate in my opinion.

What I gather, reading some of the comments on this forum, is that some players would love if every expansion was just new zones, dungeons, raids, maybe a new class, and an ability or two for their spec. I'm just not sure how much that is a reflection of the larger WoW community - it's hard to say. I know for me today vs me 16 years ago, I don't listen to the same music, wear the same style of clothes, watch the same TV shows, have the same hobbies, eat the same foods, etc. I want things in my life to always evolve.

I don't think WoW today vs [x] years ago is better or worse - it's different. Some things are better and some things are worse in every era of the game.

[Triceron]

Sure, let's just stay stuck in the era of Classic. That would eventually turn a lot of players off. Yes, you can "but Classic is popular!" it will still get old and stale of doing the same thing. Homogenizing classes to some points helps push the game otherwise we would have the hybrid tax and everything which would be bad for the game in the end.

But yeah, the style of Classic is so perfect we already have people going "When will TBC launch?" "When will Wrath launch" which steered away from the practices in Classic. One (yes one, not all) of the main reasons people miss Classic as much as they do is because they can't revisit a lot of that content like they can the other expansions.

Thing is, we will never really know if the current design much better for the game and the players overall if we don't have any alternative to compare it to.

Diablo 3 comes to mind, and (in the minds of many) PoE ended up carrying on the legacy far better. Sometimes we like the original formula and just want more content for it in the same spirit and style. I don't think 'let's just stay stuck in the era of Classic' is necessarily a bad thing if PoE can prove that a D2 style of ARPG can still exist and thrive greatly today, given a bit of modernization and a lot of content. I would say many people like Classic because of its formula, more than they do for its content. That's something to consider.

If we're talking about Classic specifically then yes there will be people who defend 'no change' stance on it. Just like a D2 hardcore fan would not want D2 to be changed. But that doesn't mean a PoE spiritual successor that carries on the basic formula and the spirit of the game shouldn't be considered or explored, and that we should always default to a 'brand new' design ala Diablo 3/4 as the only modern alternative.

The reality may be that Blizzard will never consider a 'Classic +', but in the back of the minds of many fans this is what they might want if they actually get it. We wouldn't know we like or dislike a Diablo 2 spiritual successor like PoE if it never existed.

[facefist]

I never understood the use of the work Kid as a put down. You make an assumption that the poster is younger but just by looking at how long hes been a member here.. since 2009, he isnt. Common sense goes a long way.

The picture you posted fits you extremely well considering the earlier posts between me and the dude I called a kid