Shadowlands Leveling Speed Changes and Chromie Time Disabled XP Option

[LuminaL]

end of october/start of november twitch will no longer be able to download addons and you will have to go over to overwolf who bought curse or any of the clients. However, overwolf is trying to kill of the other clients so you are forced to use overwolf as the only client that works with curse. They told wowup to work with overwolf or lose access to the api

man... that's a very shitty move, twitch wasnt the best, but it was a very good client for add ons, overwolf on the other hand is shitty and not user friendly AT ALL.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Actually, no. Unless the US Supreme Court gets involved, and that won't happen anytime soon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HiQ_La...n#Implications

https://sites.suffolk.edu/jhtl/2020/...and-abuse-act/

I see this is a ruling from 2019, so fair enough; however, it also states that LinkedIn has rightfully escalated to the Supreme Court, so we won't have closure on this until sometime in 2021 at earliest.

The reason it appears to be legal is because of the public nature of the information, which likely means that scraping which would necessitate breaking the website's ToS after logging in may still be illegal. This seems to set an awful precedent for any company that wishes to not have their content stolen would then be forced to choose whether or not they want to force users to login to access their resources. This could mean that Overwolf might be forced to somewhat privatize the information via some free registration to their website in order to effectively kill the scraping.

Regardless, the idea that web scraping is not illegal is an awful precedent to set. It would effectively mean that no web developers can ever actually own public content, so it is free to be stolen and repurposed.

Overwolf won't be able to stop the scraping with legal actions, just as Curse and Twitch couldn't.
Their technological options are pretty limited as they can't charge users for access and modern scrapers are quite sophisticated.

No, but as I said above they can force users to login and sign ToS agreements. The case above seemed to hinge on the public nature of the information.

What they can do is harass and shame users, authors, and developers, and hope that no one calls their bluff, but it seems like that ship has sailed.
https://ogri-la.github.io/wow-addon-managers/

What you can do is encourage your friends to not infect their systems with Overwolf's garbage, and encourage authors of mods you use to host on non-curse sites like github.

I will never understand the strange hateboner that people have for Overwolf. Their overlays are obnoxious, so don't use it. I don't see a reason to feel actual hatred towards an online platform for being slightly annoying.

Is is 'stealing' their bandwidth? maybe - but their business model doesn't have a right to exist, so if they disappear, good! something better will replace it.

Well, they're stealing Overwolf's content. The web scrapers are taking addons and assets from their website and repurposing them. Whether or not you have a hateboner for Overwolf shouldn't be relevant. If Overwolf and LinkedIn cannot protect their public content, this means that any and every website's public content is now up for grabs within the United States.

[King Zombie]

I like potatoes

[MysticalNyte]

Moving onto another platform to store Addons for updating like Curseforge would mean that the Addon authors would have to switch as well. And if Overwatch is incentivizing to pay the authors 70% why would an Addon Dev leave to go someplace else which would maybe not but a little cash in their pockets?

[Th3Scourge]

Template 60's are only available on one server and they just did a character wipe recently. I guarantee their is activity on the others and they are in fact leveling.

Incorrect. They are on all 3. I just checked and can confirm I have the option to create a fresh level 1, template 50 and template 60 on Tourghast, Oribos and The Maw.

[ablib]

Can't believe people use addon managers. Still.

[Chumahki]

So Curse can fuck us over on patch night again? Fuck you Curse, choke on my shit.

[Tatakau]

I've played WoW since before day 1, and never used an addon manager. Download a zip file and install it manually, it takes seconds and also make a backup because things do fuck up, and there's no roll back option with managers.

GREED

[Chakah]

I see this is a ruling from 2019, so fair enough; however, it also states that LinkedIn has rightfully escalated to the Supreme Court, so we won't have closure on this until sometime in 2021 at earliest.

LinkedIn has requested to escalate - They maybe not take it up at all and let the appeals court ruling stand. Given that they haven't announced they are taking it up for the new session, I'd guess 2022+.

This seems to set an awful precedent for any company that wishes to not have their content stolen would then be forced to choose whether or not they want to force users to login to access their resources. [snip] It would effectively mean that no web developers can ever actually own public content, so it is free to be stolen and repurposed.

This is part of the issue - overwolf doesn't own the addons. That part of the data isn't their content. And the addon authors have explicitly posted their content for redistribution - so it can't really be 'stolen' or copyright infringed. The idea of web developers 'owning' public content seems oxymoronic to me.
It's either owned or its public.

What they do own is the database of addons - but most of that (other than the download popularity) would likely be considered directory information. And just ask the phone companies how copyrightable that is.... (hint, not at all)

No, but as I said above they can force users to login and sign ToS agreements. The case above seemed to hinge on the public nature of the information.

Can they force me to not run an ad-blocker? Can they force me to use a particular web browser?
You can think of these open-source, alternative clients as alternate web browsers. Thats really all they are. Thats really all the curse client, twitch client, and overwolf client really are - custom web browsers.

WowUp, etc, aren't stealing or downloading anything from overwolf - they are only providing a browser to the users. It's the end user that downloads the addons - it's the end user that accesses the database.

[Magical Mudcrab]

This is part of the issue - overwolf doesn't own the addons. That part of the data isn't their content. And the addon authors have explicitly posted their content for redistribution - so it can't really be 'stolen' or copyright infringed. The idea of web developers 'owning' public content seems oxymoronic to me.
It's either owned or its public.

If you publish a website, you should own the content what you've published on there. Imagine if someone began scraping the BBC for articles and reposting them word-for word with the same styling, page layout, etc. In this case, it would be considered to be plagarism, which has always been a major no-no in online communities, such as the open source community. This even goes so far as such that people will expect you to accredit solutions you may apply in subsequent updates to your code with specific references, such as StackOverflow or references to other projects, assuming you took those ideas from others.

Regarding addons, you're right, it is the addon authors who own the source for them. Their releasing the addons on Curse is them giving explicit permission to Curse to distribute this code; however, web scrapers do not have the same permission. Curseforge (Curse) and WoWInterface have had issues with scrapers for years, and have discussed how content authors on their website have had their requests for addons to be removed from scraper's applications denied.

What they do own is the database of addons - but most of that (other than the download popularity) would likely be considered directory information. And just ask the phone companies how copyrightable that is.... (hint, not at all)

Whether it's directory information is irrelevant. Copyright protects novel works, which is why phonebooks, which are just lists of facts, aren't covered. In fact, there's incredibly awkward cases in Canada where Canada Post has claimed copyright for Canadian postal codes, and successfully forced companies to settle in court when they've infringed.

Can they force me to not run an ad-blocker? Can they force me to use a particular web browser?

No, but these aren't the same thing. There's a difference between denying a company to have access to your browsing context and actively going to their website, taking their content, and republishing it as your own.

You can think of these open-source, alternative clients as alternate web browsers. Thats really all they are. Thats really all the curse client, twitch client, and overwolf client really are - custom web browsers.

They aren't. They are a collection of resources which authors have given them permission to distribute. If the download links were made to be open source, then they would be. Instead, scrapers are circumventing intended process and are essentially making it so that companies that do invest in their websites, into SEO, and into staff and management see limited returns on their investment because the content is being stolen and republished.

WowUp, etc, aren't stealing or downloading anything from overwolf - they are only providing a browser to the users. It's the end user that downloads the addons - it's the end user that accesses the database.

The problem is that they are taking content from Overwolf, Curse, WoWInterface, etc. That's the purpose of web scraping: data extraction. They're essentially taking the content of other sites, publishing it as their own, and calling it a day. If you wanted to put this in the context of a web browser, this is more analogous to one which that never takes you to the intended site but instead redirects you to its own homepage, retrieves the HTML of the intended website, replaces advertising and download elements on the page with its own, and then modifies your cookies so it tracks you rather than the content publisher.

So I was looking into the WoWUp situation, and it seems that there's an API that scrapers are using from Curse Forge which they're using to convey content to users. It should be said that publicly accessible APIs does not mean that the APIs are supposed to be used by the public, but I'm not totally sure why the APIs aren't secured.

[Heftybags]

World of Warcraft User Interface Add-On Development Policy
With the continuing popularity of World of Warcraft user interface add-ons (referred to hereafter as "add-ons") created by the community of players, Blizzard Entertainment has formalized design and distribution guidelines for add-ons. These guidelines have been put in place to ensure the integrity of World of Warcraft and to help promote an enjoyable gaming environment for all of our players - failure to abide by them may result in measures up to and including taking formal legal action.

1) Add-ons must be free of charge.
All add-ons must be distributed free of charge. Developers may not create "premium" versions of add-ons with additional for-pay features, charge money to download an add-on, charge for services related to the add-on, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to download or access an add-on.

2) Add-on code must be completely visible.
The programming code of an add-on must in no way be hidden or obfuscated, and must be freely accessible to and viewable by the general public.

3) Add-ons must not negatively impact World of Warcraft realms or other players.
Add-ons will perform no function which, in Blizzard Entertainment's sole discretion, negatively impacts the performance of the World of Warcraft realms or otherwise negatively affects the game for other players. For example, this includes but is not limited to excessive use of the chat system, unnecessary loading from the hard disk, and slow frame rates.

4) Add-ons may not include advertisements.
Add-ons may not be used to advertise any goods or services.

5) Add-ons may not solicit donations.
Add-ons may not include requests for donations. We recognize the immense amount of effort and resources that go into developing an add-on; however, such requests should be limited to the add-on website or distribution site and should not appear in the game.

6) Add-ons must not contain offensive or objectionable material.
World of Warcraft has been given a "T" by the ESRB, and similar ratings from other ratings boards around the world. Blizzard Entertainment requires that add-ons not include any material that would not be allowed under these ratings.

7) Add-ons must abide by World of Warcraft ToU and EULA.
All add-ons must follow the World of Warcraft Terms of Use and the World of Warcraft End User License Agreement.

8) Blizzard Entertainment has the right to disable add-on functionality as it sees fit.
To maintain the integrity World of Warcraft and ensure the best possible gaming experience for our players, Blizzard Entertainment reserves the right to disable any add-on functionality within World of Warcraft at its sole discretion. For more information...

If you are an add-on developer and have any questions about and this User Interface Add-On Development Policy and how it pertains to the add-on that you've developed, please don't hesitate to email us at WoWUI@blizzard.com.


http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/policy/ui.html

[Chakah]

If you publish a website, you should own the content what you've published on there.

I think you are being overly broad in your use of the word own. So in your view, google owns all websites?
I can find my words on google.com and I never gave them permissions to copy them.
Of course not. Copyright is much more complex than that.

Curseforge (Curse) and WoWInterface have had issues with scrapers for years, and have discussed how content authors on their website have had their requests for addons to be removed from scraper's applications denied.

I remember well the WoWMatrix fiasco. Curse's Mac support was very bad at the time and WoWMatrix could have been a solution. But WoWMatrix was making copies of the addons on Curse because Curse was trying to block deep linking. It was a shitshow and no one was blameless. But modern addon managers aren't operating the same way - as you note in your update below.

Whether it's directory information is irrelevant. Copyright protects novel works, which is why phonebooks, which are just lists of facts, aren't covered. In fact, there's incredibly awkward cases in Canada where Canada Post has claimed copyright for Canadian postal codes, and successfully forced companies to settle in court when they've infringed.

It is relevant because if their database is just a directory or inventory, it can't be copyrighted. https://www.justia.com/intellectual-...and-databases/

So I was looking into the WoWUp situation, and it seems that there's an API that scrapers are using from Curse Forge which they're using to convey content to users. It should be said that publicly accessible APIs does not mean that the APIs are supposed to be used by the public, but I'm not totally sure why the APIs aren't secured.

I'm glad you took the time to educate yourself on this. There is a lot of misinformation on this topic being spewed around.

I'm pretty sure its because Twitch did it after they bought them.
overwolf is apparently planning on breaking this api. Which means that the addon managers will have to use URLs like "https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/details/download/3059904/file" instead - which they will have to use some more complicated logic to determine rather than a nice API.

[[Apok]]

Didn’t achievements start in the Wrath prepatch? My earliest ones are from 10/14/08, which was a month before Wrath launched, and I remember logging on in Shattrath when they first started popping up.

As for leveling In vanilla, I can attest you did not need every quest completed, but there were areas where I did a lot of farming that helped the XP; furbolgs, the mobs in WPL trying to get Crusader...mobs in WPL & EPL for AD rep. I did the Loremaster achievements pre-Cata, and I had to go back and look for quests to hit the numerical marks in certain places (iirc). Even then, as I came to learn in Classic, there were a few quests I still missed.

yea achievements came in wrath pre-patch.

[Magical Mudcrab]

I think you are being overly broad in your use of the word own. So in your view, google owns all websites?
I can find my words on google.com and I never gave them permissions to copy them.
Of course not. Copyright is much more complex than that.

I'm going to assume this is a misunderstanding and not a bad faith interpretation of what I said. Google does not publish every website and does not own their content, they're a search engine. They provide you the ability to find content and don't necessarily own the content themselves; however, Google owns their method of indexing data, their own algorithms, website design, etc.

When you publish a website, you own the content that you have made. This is why licenses like MIT, GPL, BSD, and Apache are added to GitHub projects in order to relieve barriers of usage from companies or individuals who want to develop websites and own the copyright of that creative work. In case it needs to be explicitly said, this does not apply to works or content you take from other sources such as images, embedded content, etc., and accreditation should always be given to the original content author or host.

It is relevant because if their database is just a directory or inventory, it can't be copyrighted. https://www.justia.com/intellectual-...and-databases/

If you read the article you linked, you would understand why what you are saying is not necessarily applicable:

In most cases, copyright will not be appropriate for these lists because they are arranged in an obvious manner. They are typically arranged alphabetically or numerically, and the people compiling the list do not choose which items to include. Moreover, a mailing list of people who made political contributions that was organized by zip code was found to lie outside the boundaries of copyright protection.

...

Factory and store inventories do not receive copyright protection. They are meant to be comprehensive, so no choice is involved in compiling their content. Also, they are generally arranged in alphabetical or numerical order. Businesses may be able to protect their inventories as trade secrets instead. (Read more here about trade secrets, which are a different form of intellectual property.)

The issue with copyrighting lists, as I said above, is because they're not novel. They don't meet the requirements of novel work and thus cannot be copyrighted. It's not because they are a directory or inventory. What is provided by Curse is not simply a list of information, but search algorithms, addon management systems, etc., which would likely qualify as novel/creative work.

I'm glad you took the time to educate yourself on this. There is a lot of misinformation on this topic being spewed around.

I'm pretty sure its because Twitch did it after they bought them.
overwolf is apparently planning on breaking this api. Which means that the addon managers will have to use URLs like "https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/details/download/3059904/file" instead - which they will have to use some more complicated logic to determine rather than a nice API.

And that's Overwolf's prerogative. This actually makes the complaints less legitimate, as Overwolf is patching a flaw in the system they purchased - an API which was not supposed to be generally consumed. I have no doubt that Overwolf is going to patch their services to obfuscate the method by which downloads are done, perhaps by having the client request a temporary download link which requires an initial request which is hidden behind some form of bot detection.

- - - Updated - - -

1) Add-ons must be free of charge.
All add-ons must be distributed free of charge. Developers may not create "premium" versions of add-ons with additional for-pay features, charge money to download an add-on, charge for services related to the add-on, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to download or access an add-on.

As far as I'm aware, we've not heard anything about Overwolf charging users for access to addons or about creating "premium" addon versions. If they begin doing so then they're obviously in the wrong, but until they do so quoting portions of the ToS as though them paywalling addons is a foregone conclusion is silly.

[Heftybags]

As far as I'm aware, we've not heard anything about Overwolf charging users for access to addons or about creating "premium" addon versions. If they begin doing so then they're obviously in the wrong, but until they do so quoting portions of the ToS as though them paywalling addons is a foregone conclusion is silly.

There are several people that voiced concerns about overwolf charging my post was directed towards those folks to ease their concerns. My previous post was in no way meant to indicate that I believe or have any evidence that overwolf plans on charging for addons or access to addons it certainly was not a foregone conclusion on my behalf thus not silly.

[Vampyr78]

This will be much more than that tho. It might mean the death of free wow addons. If overwolf bans all other clients from using curse, limit download speed and say 1 addon per hour download unless you pay a hefty premium sum. Then what ? we start using wowinterface ? what if overwolf buys them aswell ?

I hope blizzard will intervene here and stop overwolf from being allowed to monetize addons

Did you forget how old curse client used to work? Without premium account you had ads and wasn't able to queue downloads you had to download each addon one by one to update them. Having limits for non premium users is nothing new. No matter what they do it won't kill free wow addons for one reason, all addons have to be free as it is written in Blizzard's ToS.

[glowpipe]

Did you forget how old curse client used to work? Without premium account you had ads and wasn't able to queue downloads you had to download each addon one by one to update them. Having limits for non premium users is nothing new. No matter what they do it won't kill free wow addons for one reason, all addons have to be free as it is written in Blizzard's ToS.

Yeah, i remember it all too well. If overwolf goes back to that, and this becomes the worst, then we will survive. But the old curseclient never tried to kill other methods of mod downloads. Overwolf started sending cease and desists to other clients now. If they get to a point where they have all the control over addons. Getting all addon creators to use curse in the hopes of money and overwolf being the only available manager. They can paywall convenvience just the way they want, aslong as they leave manual installs alone, thats enough to satisfy blizzard. But they may do whatever they want with the clients since they still offer manual installs. If overwolf then is the only client, thats bad for everyone

[MrMatticus]

I've played WoW since before day 1, and never used an addon manager. Download a zip file and install it manually, it takes seconds and also make a backup because things do fuck up, and there's no roll back option with managers.

GREED

You can 100% rollback with Twitch addon manager.

[Vampyrr]

Can't believe people use addon managers. Still.

Versus what? Manually downloading the addon everytime it updates by tracking its individual addon page? Some people use dozens of addons I think I have like 40 or so that would be a pain in the ass to do. The addon manager tracks it and updates them all at once for me and has a nice search tool to download and install in the manager itself without having to go through a website. Imagine NOT using a manager in this day and age.

[Loveliest]

Anecdotally, yes, everyone I know who has beta access does not log on. Even those that got access 3 weeks ago.

I, for one, stopped applying for beta because i was a shit tester, I did very little and mostly checked things out. Some of my friends actually test and give feedback. Maybe not a lot, but some people actually take testing seriously.