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  1. #21
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
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    Or maybe BFA wasn't fairing well and they needed a good reception at 2019 Blizzcon and covid threw a wrench into their 2020 plans so they're actually being smart instead of trying to rush things when they're not ready?
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    We likely won't see any major shifts in design philosophy until midway through SL
    we wont see any major shift in philosophy after sl or the next expansion either, they didnt postpone bcs they suddenly changed their mind about their philosophy, but most likely bcs corona and leveling overhaul cost them way too much time to balance SL in time (to reasonable level)

    there is nothing in blue posts indicating they in any way doubt their philosophy or that they even think about it, "systems" are there to stay for long time

  3. #23
    It's because blizzard realized sometime through WoD that they can't not have something to do in the game or else... you get WoD. This is the point where they realized that putting out content takes too much resources, and not putting out anything kills the game. Legion is where these complicated systems began, in an effort to provide repeatable, somewhat "meaningful" content with minimal design and resource time.

    I assure you, it was not a mistake that legiondaries were random drop throughout the entire expansion and then put onto a vendor towards the end. You can't do the same shit twice (corruptions) and not expect people to catch on to their bullshit. Covenants and soulbinds and whatever else kind of system in SL is being designed to do the same thing as before, grind-able, repeatable content that doesn't need much attention from the devs.

    Unfortunately i don't see a future for this game where they will move away from this design philosophy, it pains me to say.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    we wont see any major shift in philosophy after sl or the next expansion either, they didnt postpone bcs they suddenly changed their mind about their philosophy, but most likely bcs corona and leveling overhaul cost them way too much time to balance SL in time (to reasonable level)

    there is nothing in blue posts indicating they in any way doubt their philosophy or that they even think about it, "systems" are there to stay for long time
    You do realize that's exactly why I'm asking for this to be discussed, right? I don't think that they're delaying it because they want to change design philosophies. I'm asking whether the design philosophies which presumably caused the delay are something which Blizzard may decide to curb in the future to prevent additional delays.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy valmer View Post
    I assure you, it was not a mistake that legiondaries were random drop throughout the entire expansion and then put onto a vendor towards the end. You can't do the same shit twice (corruptions) and not expect people to catch on to their bullshit. Covenants and soulbinds and whatever else kind of system in SL is being designed to do the same thing as before, grind-able, repeatable content that doesn't need much attention from the devs.

    Unfortunately i don't see a future for this game where they will move away from this design philosophy, it pains me to say.
    At some point, however, you have to wonder whether the playerbase will simply stop supporting these design decisions. BfA's relationship with players seemed tenuous at best and SL is, in many ways, supposed to be a redemption arc for Blizzard. I get that there's only so many ways they can serve us the same bullshit on a different platter but I don't think it's nearly as bleak a picture as you're painting here. The delay is unquestionably a good thing but I'm hoping that it's also a teachable moment for Blizzard internally.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    as much as i wish it was for the reasons you think, the delay could be for any number of reasons. to fix the leveling, to balance classes more, to get a little more time to work on the conduits, just to polish things up more for a good impression. a delay doesn't really mean anything beyond the product releasing later than anticipated.
    Problem is they've raised the expectations tremendously now and anything short of greatness will leave a really bitter and sour impression that will taint the whole expansion and probably be the final straw for a lot of people. 5 years and 3 expansions worth of shit? Yeh, people will move on.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    I'm asking whether the design philosophies which presumably caused the delay are something which Blizzard may decide to curb in the future to prevent additional delays.
    and i answered it, that we dont know what caused delay, and that they wont change the philosophy bcs they dont seem to doubt it...
    or you didnt ask for answers but rather echo chamber of people saying you are right and they surely turn around in next patch despite there being no evidence suggesting it?
    Last edited by Lolites; 2020-10-10 at 04:23 PM.

  7. #27
    Old God Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy valmer View Post
    It's because blizzard realized sometime through WoD that they can't not have something to do in the game or else... you get WoD.
    Vanilla, TBC, Wotlk, Cata, MoP

    None of them had these extra curricular systems. The routine was essentially the same: leveling, farming (whatever you want to allocate here), dungeons, raids and PvP.

    And you know what? Pulling it out of my ass, players were largely happy about it. Oh, you've done your daily routine and now there's nothing to do? There's always something to do, you (we players) just don't want to or like to do them. Adding more systems doesn't change the fact. And if there's actually nothing to do, then go do smth else with your life.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    and i answered it, that we dont know what caused delay, and that they wont change the philosophy bcs they dont seem to doubt it...
    or you didnt ask for answers but rather echo chamber of people saying you are right and they surely turn around in next patch despite there being no evidence suggesting it?
    ???

    You completely missed the point in your first reply and now you're just doubling down. I don't know how much clearer I could make myself. I don't want an echo chamber but I also don't want people to think I'm saying something I'm not.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    Anyone who has payed attention to the beta even remotely will tell you this delay is a good thing. It just wasn’t unfinished, the game is in shambles.
    Yeah, I've been saying for months that the state of beta has always been at least a month behind where previous expansion betas have been in relation to their proposed release dates. When they originally announced the Oct 27 date, I was kind of in shock as I felt they were being super ambitious considering the amount of bug reports I had been submitting up to that announcement. The internal builds are ahead of what beta testers typically see, but the massive amount of changes/fixes/correction was way too high for a normal release time table.

    While I think Covenants may have been part of the reason for the delay, I don't think it was the only reason by a long shot, nor was it the 'design direction' the issue. My $0.02 is that covid played a large role in the delay and current state of beta, especially considering California's response and how prohibitive to normal business that state tends to be in general... so delays were expected. As such, there was a trickle effect that slowed down the creation and feedback loop when it came to the expansion. I still surmise the Oct 27 release date was a corporate decision, as the devs probably wanted to release the content much later (late Nov or early Dec at the earliest, especially considering the state of beta).

    I've been doing some leveling dry runs this past week, and it's fairly obvious that there's still a bunch of things wrong with the questing/leveling experience, and it was quoted as being mostly good. Just this week we're getting blue posts addressing the XP issues and fixes on the way, which is good but only one piece of the puzzle. The amount of bugged/broken quests and random DC's when doing certain aspects of quests is still decently high, and it will cause massive issues if there's one campaign quest that's broken on release and can't be completed. Keep in mind: this leveling experience, imo, is the most ambitious experience Blizz has undertaken. Why? Both Alliance and Horde have to do the exact same quests at the exact same time the entire way. There's no split starting zones, there's no separate faction questing hubs, it's all the same for everyone... and that comes with a LOT of risk that needs to be right before launch.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    ???

    You completely missed the point in your first reply and now you're just doubling down. I don't know how much clearer I could make myself. I don't want an echo chamber but I also don't want people to think I'm saying something I'm not.
    how can this " It's made me wonder whether the SL delay will finally begin a push for Blizzard to finally move away from these kinds of systems"
    be understood in any way different than you asking if there will be change in design philosophy?
    please, enlighten me then, bcs it seems you either dont know what you ask yourself or your question is so "inteligent" that it means something different than what you actualy say...

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    Shadowlands is being delayed for the same reasons TBC was delayed, to finish the expansion.
    That isn't what blizzard has said... they pointed out that everything but the end game systems are done in their past and as a beta player I have to agree.

    It works but the systems they made to fill bars dont.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    That isn't what blizzard has said... they pointed out that everything but the end game systems are done in their past and as a beta player I have to agree.

    It works but the systems they made to fill bars dont.
    What exactly did I say that was incorrect? Are they not using the time to finish the expansion?
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  13. #33
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    If Blizz didn't think this was the right way forward they wouldn't have delayed the game. They'd have burned the parachute entirely, cut these features outright.

    The delay is proof they think this is right and want to make it work, but needed more time.
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  14. #34
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    ... but I'm hopeful that Blizzard is finally realizing that there is beauty in simplicity and that multiple systems riding on other systems creates far more problems than it solves. What do you guys think?
    Honestly, I wasn't a big fan of the system where you upgrade your artifacts in Legion and BfA. I was a lot of "yeah...whatever". And when they said they learned from that, I hoped SL would be more simple and straight forward. Yet now we have conduits and soulbinds and I am like "sure..whatever..Icy veins is gonna tell me what to pick" (and for the content I play, it probably wouldn't even matter)

    And I wonder...for how many people does it actually matter and is it worth to sink so much development cost into it - while also getting so much hate from the few people it affects?

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    I've been thinking a lot about the delay and how meaningful this choice has been for Blizzard. This is a company that had zero qualms releasing BfA in an unfinished state. Yet, for whatever reason, they're delaying SL for a lot of the same reasons early BfA was criticized: A systems-on-systems approach to game design which is inherently difficult to balance. Whether it's Azerite, Essences, Covenants or Legendaries, Blizzard loves to create problems for themselves which they then have to solve -- and seemingly never really do. It's made me wonder whether the SL delay (which seemed inevitable to anybody who played the beta) will finally begin a push for Blizzard to finally move away from these kinds of systems because of the litany of issues which come along with them. The delay must not have been an easy choice for Blizzard to make and I'm sure there are heated internal discussions to figure out how to prevent such a situation from happening again in the future.

    We likely won't see any major shifts in design philosophy until midway through SL but I'm hopeful that Blizzard is finally realizing that there is beauty in simplicity and that multiple systems riding on other systems creates far more problems than it solves. What do you guys think?
    No borrowed power systems = getting more and more abilities, which results in an ability pruning every 2-3 expacs. And you know how well that was received.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    I've been thinking a lot about the delay and how meaningful this choice has been for Blizzard. This is a company that had zero qualms releasing BfA in an unfinished state. Yet, for whatever reason, they're delaying SL for a lot of the same reasons early BfA was criticized: A systems-on-systems approach to game design which is inherently difficult to balance. Whether it's Azerite, Essences, Covenants or Legendaries, Blizzard loves to create problems for themselves which they then have to solve -- and seemingly never really do. It's made me wonder whether the SL delay (which seemed inevitable to anybody who played the beta) will finally begin a push for Blizzard to finally move away from these kinds of systems because of the litany of issues which come along with them. The delay must not have been an easy choice for Blizzard to make and I'm sure there are heated internal discussions to figure out how to prevent such a situation from happening again in the future.

    We likely won't see any major shifts in design philosophy until midway through SL but I'm hopeful that Blizzard is finally realizing that there is beauty in simplicity and that multiple systems riding on other systems creates far more problems than it solves. What do you guys think?
    Well, duh.

    It is widely agreed upon that the sole purpose of these intricated systems on top of each other is to force us to play more in order to reach power level 9001.
    If anything the heated discussions are with Activision about whether that is a sustainable approach or not, and judging by the amount of complaints regarding burnout these last years; it is not.

    They said they listened. They said they heard. Let's hope they understood.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    Problem is they've raised the expectations tremendously now and anything short of greatness will leave a really bitter and sour impression that will taint the whole expansion and probably be the final straw for a lot of people. 5 years and 3 expansions worth of shit? Yeh, people will move on.
    let's be fair here. blizz didn't promise anything by delaying the expac. YOU raised your expectations because of the delay. a reasonable person would still expect the same product.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    how can this " It's made me wonder whether the SL delay will finally begin a push for Blizzard to finally move away from these kinds of systems"
    be understood in any way different than you asking if there will be change in design philosophy?
    please, enlighten me then, bcs it seems you either dont know what you ask yourself or your question is so "inteligent" that it means something different than what you actualy say...
    Brother, the question is whether this delay is enough of a reason for them to finally start reconsidering. Obviously nobody knows for sure but I felt the possibility was large enough to warrant a discussion topic. You're free to think otherwise but it's pretty silly for you to say I'm "looking for an echo chamber" simply because I corrected you implying I said something I didn't.

  19. #39
    Wasn't it Blizzard who used to say "we never release anything until it's ready"? And people used to respect them for that. We've just become such an instant gratification society now that most people can't fathom why taking a little more time on something to get it right. That may not be what you want to hear, but it's the truth.
    Still calling them out, one infraction at a time.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    What exactly did I say that was incorrect? Are they not using the time to finish the expansion?
    You compared it to tbc. Tbc had content unfinished and bugs to work out

    Shadowlands content works. Its content complete what is delaying it classes are doing triple the damage of other classes and the same spec same talents are doing upwards of 30% of damage of the same spec and talents.

    Comparing it to tbc isn't an apt comparison it's more like final fantasy a realm reborn.

    Edit my bad didn't see I responded to this twice.

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