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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    What exactly did I say that was incorrect? Are they not using the time to finish the expansion?
    What you said was not correct and added zero value to the discussion. The discussion is about more precise reasons of delay instead of "it's not finished", which everyone probably already knows..

    Edit: to clarify, you said "reasons" when you probably ment "reason", which wouldve made you correct.
    Last edited by facefist; 2020-10-10 at 07:20 PM.

  2. #42
    The problem is that Blizzard has decided to add a whole bunch of stuff into the game without them even knowing how to balance the base classes and specs. For years and years there have been outliers, in every expansion, in every major content patch, that are either over or under-performing.

    Now, they've added a whole bunch of other things on top of the base classes. Now that have to balance 36 specs under 4 different covenants. If we consider the covenant abilities and conduits under the whole package, that's 144 different builds they have to balance to within around 10% of each other (I always consider 10% being an acceptable difference in performance).

    Then, you have to consider the different "modes of play": solo content, PvP, raids, and M+. Now, they need to balance how DPS performs under both single target, cleave and AoE, how tanks perform against trash packs and boss mechanics, and how healers can cope with huge incoming damage both single target and AoE, and what utility they can bring.

    Blizzard has a lot of work to do, both prior and post-release, because we all know they're going to be doing a lot of heavy patching once the entire playerbase gets their collective hands on Shadowlands; this has been the case every expansion and it ain't gonna stop any time soon.

  3. #43
    I hope you are right, but i am unconvinced. Evidence from the side of the devs will be needed. As far as i can see they are still being stubborn and fighting the community.

    They delayed the xpac cause they cannot afford another blunder. I imagine margins have been dropping and i'm not surprised with how execs have been running the company down and developers showing arrogance, whether from themselves or from the exec decisions.

    Anyways, yeah. Nothing would make me happier than them having a change of heart. But, i have heard this talk many times before. They communicate for a bit and then they go silent again. Honestly, if it weren't for my guild coming back (who knows for how long), i probably wouldn't even have returned, cause so far it's been more of the same frustration at how the devs handle class balance, design and all the systems they bolt on top just to remove it 2 years or less later and repeat again. It is utter insanity! Sometimes i do wonder how everyone hasn't left yet.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2020-10-11 at 04:16 AM.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    Anyone who has payed attention to the beta even remotely will tell you this delay is a good thing. It just wasn’t unfinished, the game is in shambles.
    Not my experience at all from leveling two toons to max level on beta, and doing some dungeons. The zones are all amazing, maybe the most beautiful ever made, the story excellent, and the systems interesting.

    Why they delayed is because they are late in fixing bugs and balancing legendaries and covenants. It’s most likely entirely due to covid this year. Nothing is in shambles and we will have an amazing expansion.

    I think that, and a bunch of other people on beta think that, so clearly you’re dead wrong.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by sensei- View Post
    Not my experience at all from leveling two toons to max level on beta, and doing some dungeons. The zones are all amazing, maybe the most beautiful ever made, the story excellent, and the systems interesting.

    Why they delayed is because they are late in fixing bugs and balancing legendaries and covenants. It’s most likely entirely due to covid this year. Nothing is in shambles and we will have an amazing expansion.

    I think that, and a bunch of other people on beta think that, so clearly you’re dead wrong.
    Leveling and dungeons are like 1/10 of an expansion

  6. #46
    And there’s something wrong with Castle Nathria or Torghast?

    Are you seriously making some tuning issue a ’big deal’? Tuning is so irrelevant it’s unreal. We as WoW gamers have never ever given a crap about tuning. Not in any patch. Even now we got Mages doing 350k DPS on some fights where other classes struggle to break 150k. There’s nothing ’broken’ on beta except a couple of quests, spells or effects, and they’ll be fixed. Stop spreading some nonsense regurgitated hyperbole you heard from some streamer who makes a living selling malcontent.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by sensei- View Post
    And there’s something wrong with Castle Nathria or Torghast?

    Are you seriously making some tuning issue a ’big deal’? Tuning is so irrelevant it’s unreal. We as WoW gamers have never ever given a crap about tuning. Not in any patch. Even now we got Mages doing 350k DPS on some fights where other classes struggle to break 150k. There’s nothing ’broken’ on beta except a couple of quests, spells or effects, and they’ll be fixed. Stop spreading some nonsense regurgitated hyperbole you heard from some streamer who makes a living selling malcontent.
    You have no idea what you're talking about if you claim that tuning is irrelevant and players havent cared about it.

  8. #48
    I doubt it.

    First off, Shadowlands developement seemed rather rocky, while this is obviously more speculative from an outsider perspective, there has been quite a long time in late spring where virtually nothing on the Alpha / Beta changed.
    A lot of stuff was NYI for a long time, however as we've moved into mid / late summer, things kept changing on a build to build basis.

    Part of the current issues can be also explained by the production process of the expansion being far from perfect, which is something, if true, Blizzard needs to work on internally.
    The later than usual announcement of the expansion release date (at least i think it is) also implies that there has been an internal discussion going on at Blizzard over the date.


    In regards to those systems itself, if the WoW devs have set their sights on something in recent years, they are extremely unwilling to let go of it.
    Prime examples such as Pathfinder or Titanforging.

    In particular Titanforging highlights how stubborn the devs can be.

    People didn't like its first inception.
    People didn't like the inclusion of sockets.
    People didn't like when this was even further expanded into Titanforging.

    It took no less than 7(!) years of players saying "we don't want this" until Blizzard attempted something new (Corruption), which then proceeded to break the game (by Ions own admission) until they said "Okay, this isn't working".

    I honestly believe that the devs rather "blame" the former than admit defeat on their ideas not working, the fact that they had even the nerve to go with these loads of systems right after BfA (when i think the game would have really needed an expansion that plays it "safe") means that those huge systems is being forced down upon them from above or they just keep telling themselves "we'll get it right this time".
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-10-10 at 09:24 PM.

  9. #49
    Their systems are not systems they have to solve. Those are lame chronophage systems they use to add a false sense of need to stay subbed (instead of enjoyable content) that they give "broken" ar first to force people into it. And when people are pissed of enought and leave they "fix" it by making it less retarded. Just so people come back with that annoucement. "The retarded systèm is less retarded". Still retarded of course. And they add new retarded system on top of it.
    Everybody new the problem with legendaries in legion in a week, and how to solve it easily. They waited until 9.3 to make it correct. With many anouncements before to make it less retarded. But still heavily retarded.
    You can't be that uncompetent. It's their goal from the start.

  10. #50
    I highly doubt they will be changing the main system at all. System within the system like soulbinds and conduits have changed a bit already, and it's those things they are fixing, not the main design of choosing your Covenant. The Covenant abilities being locked is not going to change. To actually change all this they would have to remove the Covenant system completely, and there is not time for that.

    So tuning and fixing is what they will be doing. But for the point of how they want to design their game going forward, I believe that will change, but not for Shadowlands. And the Covenant system isn't hated as people make it out to be. It's something else for Blizzard to remove the newest change where you couldn't use your abilities outside Shadowlands because even their lore reasoning was faulty. To make that choice to pick a Covenant and the pros and cons they bring is something they seem to be quite sturdy at keeping and that was confirmed recently.

    And I have to say, for those people who want them to lose the restrictions of Covenants completely because of tuning and balancing. That would be even worse than putting restrictions on it like we have now. To have all the specs mix and match different Covenant abilities and soulbinds would be a disaster. So many variables would make it a balancing nightmare. If anything, Covenants should even be more restrictive.

    The biggest development error to me with the Covenants is that each spec should have had their own ability within each Covenant. And Blizzard brought this on themselves to balance it. Think for all the specs within one class they have to tune the Covenant ability for. Or to tune it against how many other specs. Here lies the biggest issue when it comes to balancing, and I think Blizzard made a rather big mistake there and is one of the reasons for why they have to delay the expansion. If they had one ability that were made for one spec it would have been a lot easier for them to nerf and buff it accordingly. Having to consider several specs when tuning one significant ability like this can't be fun.

    But mostly, the delay was to add something to the allround content. Like adding something to the Maw, leveling issues and overall balancing and fixing.
    - Enough prattling. Let them come. We shall grind their bones to dust.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I doubt it.

    First off, Shadowlands developement seemed rather rocky, while this is obviously more speculative from an outsider perspective, there has been quite a long time in late spring where virtually nothing on the Alpha / Beta changed.
    A lot of stuff was NYI for a long time, however as we've moved into mid / late summer, things kept changing on a build to build basis.

    Part of the current issues can be also explained by the production process of the expansion being far from perfect, which is something, if true, Blizzard needs to work on internally.
    The later than usual announcement of the expansion release date (at least i think it is) also implies that there has been an internal discussion going on at Blizzard over the date.


    In regards to those systems itself, if the WoW devs have set their sights on something in recent years, they are extremely unwilling to let go of it.
    Prime examples such as Pathfinder or Titanforging.

    In particular Titanforging highlights how stubborn the devs can be.

    People didn't like its first inception.
    People didn't like the inclusion of sockets.
    People didn't like when this was even further expanded into Titanforging.

    It took no less than 7(!) years of players saying "we don't want this" until Blizzard attempted something new (Corruption), which then proceeded to break the game (by Ions own admission) until they said "Okay, this isn't working".

    I honestly believe that the devs rather "blame" the former than admit defeat on their ideas not working, the fact that they had even the nerve to go with these loads of systems right after BfA (when i think the game would have really needed an expansion that plays it "safe") means that those huge systems is being forced down upon them from above or they just keep telling themselves "we'll get it right this time".
    I've been in since fairly early beta/alpha back when torghast still had a true infinite mode. Right now I don't think the game would be pushed back without the covenant system and the sub systems being so utterly broken. There were bugs but they more had to do with old quests needing to be updated from npcs being shuffled around.

    Wow has never really been this imbalanced as it is on beta and I am counting other beta and even classic leveling balancing .

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    let's be fair here. blizz didn't promise anything by delaying the expac. YOU raised your expectations because of the delay. a reasonable person would still expect the same product.
    But they did... If the expansion will be released in a shitty unfinished state (which it will) the outcry will so much more than if they just released it in a shitty unfinished state as it stands today.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Shadow Priest and Enhancement Shaman were both released in unfinished states. Azerite had massive changes made to it almost immediately and for all intents and purposes the game didn't really feel like it settled down until 8.1, more than four months after the expansion launched.
    Making points like this make it very apparent that you don't actually know the state Shadowlands is in.
    - The balancing pass has not been completed for classes; many classes are still having core rotational abilities added/removed.
    - The balancing pass has not been completed for covenants/soulbinds.
    - Multiple classes have baseline abilities that don't work or are broken.
    - Multiple classes have talents that don't work or are broken.
    - Dungeon/Raid encounters aren't complete, some are missing or have broken mechanics.
    - Levelling through the main story doesn't provide enough EXP to cap.
    - Levelling alts through the new system has worse EXP issues.
    - World Quests are causing phasing issues as they sometimes bleed into pre-60 character experiences, regardless of whether they're progressing on the main story, blocking progression for the time the World Quest is active.
    The list goes on.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  14. #54
    Do y'all not leave your houses enough to realize we are in a pandemic still?

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    But they did... If the expansion will be released in a shitty unfinished state (which it will) the outcry will so much more than if they just released it in a shitty unfinished state as it stands today.
    did you read what you wrote? "if the expac was released in a shitty state, the outcry will be more than if they released in a shitty state". blizz didn't promise anything when they delayed the product. YOU upped your expectations. a sane person sees a product that isn't finished and doesn't expect much (if at all) better. you wouldn't expect an ice cream topped with crap to taste better just because the server took a little longer to scoop the poop, would you?

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Making points like this make it very apparent that you don't actually know the state Shadowlands is in.
    - The balancing pass has not been completed for classes; many classes are still having core rotational abilities added/removed.
    - The balancing pass has not been completed for covenants/soulbinds.
    - Multiple classes have baseline abilities that don't work or are broken.
    - Multiple classes have talents that don't work or are broken.
    - Dungeon/Raid encounters aren't complete, some are missing or have broken mechanics.
    - Levelling through the main story doesn't provide enough EXP to cap.
    - Levelling alts through the new system has worse EXP issues.
    - World Quests are causing phasing issues as they sometimes bleed into pre-60 character experiences, regardless of whether they're progressing on the main story, blocking progression for the time the World Quest is active.
    The list goes on.
    How the fuck can you infer that I don't what the state of SL beta is based off an observation I made of the BfA launch? And why would it even matter when I've said multiple times throughout the thread that I think the delay is a good thing?

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    I hope you are right, but i am unconvinced. Evidence from the side of the devs will be needed. As far as i can see they are still being stubborn and fighting the community.

    They delayed the xpac cause they cannot afford another blunder. I imagine margins have been dropping and i'm not surprised with how execs have been running the company down and developers showing arrogance, whether from themselves or from the exec decisions.

    Anyways, yeah. Nothing would make me happier than them having a change of heart. But, i have heard this talk many times before. They communicate for a bit and then they go silent again. Honestly, if it weren't for my guild coming back (who knows for how long), i probably wouldn't even have returned, cause so far it's been more of the same frustration at how the devs handle class balance, design and all the systems they bolt on top just to removed 2 years or less later and repeat again. It is utter insanity! Sometimes i do wonder how everyone hasn't left yet.
    Running the company down? They've gotten back up strong after the big fall in gaming in general back in November 2018. The company has done really good the past two years. Must be confusing it with some other company or something.
    Hi

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    Vanilla, TBC, Wotlk, Cata, MoP

    None of them had these extra curricular systems. The routine was essentially the same: leveling, farming (whatever you want to allocate here), dungeons, raids and PvP.

    And you know what? Pulling it out of my ass, players were largely happy about it. Oh, you've done your daily routine and now there's nothing to do? There's always something to do, you (we players) just don't want to or like to do them. Adding more systems doesn't change the fact. And if there's actually nothing to do, then go do smth else with your life.
    The difference here is that players largely found that content meaningful and worth the time to replay them. I am definitely one of them, i like raiding and do so on multiple characters. However the last few expansions have made that difficult because a characters power is locked behind mandatory borrowed power.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    Considering the release was supposed to come in over two weeks in the future still, that is some magic going on there!
    Its also not like there are external factors influencing the entire world right now that may have hampered productivity over the last 9 months or so.
    This. I think a lot of the people pondering the reasons behind SL being unfinished and requiring delay are all talking about systems and balancing, but no one seems to be even considering the fact that a deadly pandemic which is affecting all aspects of life and almost every occupation, is slowing productivity for every workplace (including every other game studio), would logically be affecting Blizzard the same way right now.

    Obviously there are other factors to consider, but when you consider the fact that many beta testers are saying SL is even more unfinished than BfA was at launch? Well, between BfA & SL, only one of these expansions are being made under quarantine. I'm willing to bet that if there wasn't a pandemic forcing remote work around the world, an october release date would've seemed plausible for SL. It at least would've been at BfA's level of launch readyness, which isn't exactly good - I know - but a lot better and a lot more believable than what it's progress is looking like right now.
    Last edited by Mellrod; 2020-10-11 at 02:18 AM.
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  20. #60
    They already changed a few things for the better. Your argument is invalid

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