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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    At some point, however, you have to wonder whether the playerbase will simply stop supporting these design decisions. BfA's relationship with players seemed tenuous at best and SL is, in many ways, supposed to be a redemption arc for Blizzard. I get that there's only so many ways they can serve us the same bullshit on a different platter but I don't think it's nearly as bleak a picture as you're painting here. The delay is unquestionably a good thing but I'm hoping that it's also a teachable moment for Blizzard internally.
    I admire your optimism with blizz. I really don't think they will learn or even fucking care about what happens to this game unless the outcry or sub numbers reach critical mass (by that i mean drop so low that blizz will get off their ass and do something).

    BFA was the first time i fucking stopped playing out of frustration. On my priest i wanted to try out a certain build with corruption and i grinded the fuck out of the currency to buy those corruptions. Then after completing my gear i realized it was not as fun and wanted to try the standard priest build. Now in order to do that i have to grind AGAIN doing a shit ton of it and then replace it all the corruptions on my gear that i worked for so long. Can't even keep it or anything once the corruptions are applied. At that point i said fuck it im not doing it anymore. Now im just logging in to check my AH and one or two old raid runs for tmog, which i have been doing for several months now. Haven't stepped foot in nyalotha or a m+ in ages.

    I can only hope blizz does not design their game for situations like these ever again because i will be real salty if it repeats itself. One can just argue i should have gone the optimal corruption route but why should i be punished for trying something else.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    Shadowlands is being delayed for the same reasons TBC was delayed, to finish the expansion.
    like OP said; they had no problems releasing BFA in an unfinished state. so i find it hard to believe they delayed it to 'finish' it. dont get me wrong though, i dont mind the delay, but saying its to finish the expansion? i dont buy it.

  3. #63
    This is the hole they dug with all these stupid systems

    Systems of Systemcraft: Systemlands

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I've been in since fairly early beta/alpha back when torghast still had a true infinite mode. Right now I don't think the game would be pushed back without the covenant system and the sub systems being so utterly broken. There were bugs but they more had to do with old quests needing to be updated from npcs being shuffled around.
    I mean, those bugs are still a problem.

    In my opinion, they were already cutting it really close in the BfA beta, i remember that Warmode kept breaking countless quests that involved phasing and those weren't fixed weeks before release.
    Especially those quests that need to be completed to progress within the zone (which is the majority nowadays) need to function without flaw on launch, same goes for Covenant campaigns.

    In particular because those affect virtually everybody, even those that don't care about balance.
    Beta testers can deal with bugged quests, they're used to it, your average players most certainly won't google a workaround or read on forums, they'll be just pissed.

    But the point stands: First, those systems are a complete nightmare to balance & Blizzard seemingly had serious problems getting development going in SL.

    Remember them saying "we left us enough time to focus on balance?"
    Yeah, seems like they didn't, all that Soulbind, Legendary & Conduit stuff should have been implemented months ago, so that they could iterate over it.

    They didn't want to start with balance until all systems are in place, turns out those systems weren't "in place" (if you want to call the current state "in place") until weeks before launch.

  5. #65
    Brewmaster Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    How the fuck can you infer that I don't what the state of SL beta is based off an observation I made of the BfA launch? And why would it even matter when I've said multiple times throughout the thread that I think the delay is a good thing?
    The person you were responding to made the assertion that BfA was a perfectly functional expansion when compared to the current state of Shadowlands, and was saying that Shadowlands has significantly more issues than BfA. When you then go on to point out problems with BfA, as though they are at all comparable, and explicitly make a point about how BfA was also unfinished, it seems as though you are woefully ignorant of the multitude of problems plaguing Shadowlands. It was essentially whataboutism.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  6. #66
    Systems in place of real content and having these systems to be balanced through all avenues of the game doesn't work.

    Let gear be gear. Have real content cover content droughts instead of busy work. Let their be PVE and PVP set bonuses again.

    Covenants right now are trying to cover everything from "content', constant progression, player power and story. Doesn't work!
    Battle for Abilities = WoD 2.0


    Quote Originally Posted by Rekz View Post
    I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    Running the company down? They've gotten back up strong after the big fall in gaming in general back in November 2018. The company has done really good the past two years. Must be confusing it with some other company or something.
    Oh yes, the execs have great bonuses and all that. It's all cool and dandy for them and the shareholders as they fire the workforce and deliver mediocre products like BfA, Diablo infinite and Warcraft 3 reforged alongside a drop of HotS esports and decline of the overwatch league.

    Yes, yes... i am sure it's them at their best. I don't know how anyone could argue otherwise.

    I am gonna assume you are american, cause only americans keep talking of all these fabled economical crisis that seems to happen every 2 years, one loses count. Though i confess this crisis is most original.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2020-10-11 at 04:24 AM.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I doubt it.

    First off, Shadowlands developement seemed rather rocky, while this is obviously more speculative from an outsider perspective, there has been quite a long time in late spring where virtually nothing on the Alpha / Beta changed.
    A lot of stuff was NYI for a long time, however as we've moved into mid / late summer, things kept changing on a build to build basis.

    Part of the current issues can be also explained by the production process of the expansion being far from perfect, which is something, if true, Blizzard needs to work on internally.
    The later than usual announcement of the expansion release date (at least i think it is) also implies that there has been an internal discussion going on at Blizzard over the date.


    In regards to those systems itself, if the WoW devs have set their sights on something in recent years, they are extremely unwilling to let go of it.
    Prime examples such as Pathfinder or Titanforging.

    In particular Titanforging highlights how stubborn the devs can be.

    People didn't like its first inception.
    People didn't like the inclusion of sockets.
    People didn't like when this was even further expanded into Titanforging.

    It took no less than 7(!) years of players saying "we don't want this" until Blizzard attempted something new (Corruption), which then proceeded to break the game (by Ions own admission) until they said "Okay, this isn't working".

    I honestly believe that the devs rather "blame" the former than admit defeat on their ideas not working, the fact that they had even the nerve to go with these loads of systems right after BfA (when i think the game would have really needed an expansion that plays it "safe") means that those huge systems is being forced down upon them from above or they just keep telling themselves "we'll get it right this time".
    Thunderforging and warforging was the perfect iteration, a set +5 or +10 ilvl bonus actually felt cool when someone got it, but it never felt like something you had to farm for.

    I liked that iteration.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    Systems in place of real content and having these systems to be balanced through all avenues of the game doesn't work.

    Let gear be gear. Have real content cover content droughts instead of busy work. Let their be PVE and PVP set bonuses again.

    Covenants right now are trying to cover everything from "content', constant progression, player power and story. Doesn't work!
    What is this mythical "real content"?

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    The person you were responding to made the assertion that BfA was a perfectly functional expansion when compared to the current state of Shadowlands, and was saying that Shadowlands has significantly more issues than BfA. When you then go on to point out problems with BfA, as though they are at all comparable, and explicitly make a point about how BfA was also unfinished, it seems as though you are woefully ignorant of the multitude of problems plaguing Shadowlands. It was essentially whataboutism.
    I still fail to understand how pointing out that SL is in a somehow comparatively worse state than BfA launch really adds anything to the discussion. In fact, the entire basis of my observation is that the developers being distracted by having to balance multiple systems-on-systems is precisely why the delay was necessary.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    From what I can see, Shadowlands has a lot of issues beyond just covenant balance. They apparently aren't even done with leveling.

    Thing is, we need fun and interesting systems, but we need to avoid bloat and massive balance issues. People want balanced classes, which requires homogenization, but people hate homogenization. Blizzard is fighting an up hill battle no matter which way they go.

    I think the 1% min/maxers need to accept that no matter what system Blizzard does, they get like two options. Blizzard could balance 60 different covenant abilities to within 1% of each other and they would still have like, two options, because they're actually 1.18293% better. Covenants however have huge issues beyond simply balance, that's where Blizzard is messing up royally, and the same was true for things like corruptions, essences, and legendaries. They were fun once you had them, it was getting them that was the issue. Covenants are really cool but they have a bunch of arbitrary limitations and that's the issue.
    Warrior is in a good spot where each covenant ability is so close that we have an open choice depending on how we want to support the team or the content we do. I don't know why they're so close, but they apparently are.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    did you read what you wrote? "if the expac was released in a shitty state, the outcry will be more than if they released in a shitty state". blizz didn't promise anything when they delayed the product. YOU upped your expectations. a sane person sees a product that isn't finished and doesn't expect much (if at all) better. you wouldn't expect an ice cream topped with crap to taste better just because the server took a little longer to scoop the poop, would you?
    What part is difficult for you to understand?
    Blizz has released buggy unfinished products for over 5 years now, its to be expected.
    If they now do a 180 and decide they need more time to polish the game and give us a better experience and they fail to do that.

    If the product is not gonna improve, there would be no inherent reason to even delay it. Dont you see the flaws in your own logic?

  13. #73
    Shadowlands delay means: They've pretty much totally revamped the game (like with Cataclysm), plus COVID. People thinking this is anything more, is just the typical dipshit gamer mentality.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Oh yes, the execs have great bonuses and all that. It's all cool and dandy for them and the shareholders as they fire the workforce and deliver mediocre products like BfA, Diablo infinite and Warcraft 3 reforged alongside a drop of HotS esports and decline of the overwatch league.

    Yes, yes... i am sure it's them at their best. I don't know how anyone could argue otherwise.

    I am gonna assume you are american, cause only americans keep talking of all these fabled economical crisis that seems to happen every 2 years, one loses count. Though i confess this crisis is most original.
    Well, the company has grown in value over the last few years, so they're doing something right. You calling a few of their products mediocre doesn't change that.

    I don't have to be American to understand how businesses work. And, I'm not American, so great job trying to throw a nationality insult.
    Hi

  15. #75
    Brewmaster Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    I still fail to understand how pointing out that SL is in a somehow comparatively worse state than BfA launch really adds anything to the discussion. In fact, the entire basis of my observation is that the developers being distracted by having to balance multiple systems-on-systems is precisely why the delay was necessary.
    Just so we're both on the same page, this is essentially how we've gotten to this point:
    Your assertion is, essentially, that the number of contrived systems are causing development issues.
    The person you initially responded to, deenman, makes a counter-claim stating that the issues plaguing Shadowlands are more diverse in nature (i.e.: fundamental aspects of the expansion, like levelling from 50-60, are still not complete).
    You respond with specific issues related to BfA, which seemed to be a whataboutism for BfA (i.e.: Shadowlands may have these problems, but what about these problems with BfA).
    I respond with a slightly more comprehensive list of problems specific to Shadowlands for why it needed delayed, some of which were related to new systems and others were not.

    The relevance is that Shadowlands is very obviously not being delayed solely due to the extra systems. Fundamental parts of the expansion are not complete, this includes levelling, class spells not working, specialization rotations being incomplete and still up for major changes, some talents still don't work, many encounters in raid testing are incomplete, etc. Blizzard's problem seems to be a more fundamental scoping issue, or possibly even a resource issue, rather than being due to contrived/complex systems or layering systems on top of each other, as most of the major issues plaguing Shadowlands aren't actually related to covenants. The development team isn't a singular pool which can have all its resources allocated to a specific system, they're broken down into teams which deal with specific aspects of the game, and each of these smaller teams seem to be having issues delivering.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    I think the 1% min/maxers need to accept that no matter what system Blizzard does, they get like two options. Blizzard could balance 60 different covenant abilities to within 1% of each other and they would still have like, two options, because they're actually 1.18293% better.
    I think it needs pointed out, the idea that it's 1% min/max that are having issues is untrue. Covenants testing throughout beta, even in most recent raid/mythic+ testing has some classes being up to 100% more powerful than others, some covenant abilities have been doing upwards of 40% of some spec's damage, etc. At the moment, Blizzard is starting to nerf many of these abilities to the ground in order to force them to be relatively balance, so it'll likely be OK balance wise, but it's essentially turning interesting choices that cannot be balanced in time into uninteresting but balanced choices.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post

    At some point, however, you have to wonder whether the playerbase will simply stop supporting these design decisions. BfA's relationship with players seemed tenuous at best and SL is, in many ways, supposed to be a redemption arc for Blizzard. I get that there's only so many ways they can serve us the same bullshit on a different platter but I don't think it's nearly as bleak a picture as you're painting here. The delay is unquestionably a good thing but I'm hoping that it's also a teachable moment for Blizzard internally.
    Then you have to ask which section of the player base are you talking about. Yes some are going to support others are going to rebel. Just like with everything else. The only way this will stop is one of two ways. Everyone quits (AKA no more wow) or Ion comes up and goes "This is how the game is going to be from now on, like it and stay, hate it well there's other games for you."

  17. #77
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Them taking more time to put in actaul RPG elements and choice is absolutely the best way forward and they should do it even expan.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Just so we're both on the same page, this is essentially how we've gotten to this point:
    Your assertion is, essentially, that the number of contrived systems are causing development issues.
    The person you initially responded to, deenman, makes a counter-claim stating that the issues plaguing Shadowlands are more diverse in nature (i.e.: fundamental aspects of the expansion, like levelling from 50-60, are still not complete).
    You respond with specific issues related to BfA, which seemed to be a whataboutism for BfA (i.e.: Shadowlands may have these problems, but what about these problems with BfA).
    I respond with a slightly more comprehensive list of problems specific to Shadowlands for why it needed delayed, some of which were related to new systems and others were not.

    The relevance is that Shadowlands is very obviously not being delayed solely due to the extra systems. Fundamental parts of the expansion are not complete, this includes levelling, class spells not working, specialization rotations being incomplete and still up for major changes, some talents still don't work, many encounters in raid testing are incomplete, etc. Blizzard's problem seems to be a more fundamental scoping issue, or possibly even a resource issue, rather than being due to contrived/complex systems or layering systems on top of each other, as most of the major issues plaguing Shadowlands aren't actually related to covenants. The development team isn't a singular pool which can have all its resources allocated to a specific system, they're broken down into teams which deal with specific aspects of the game, and each of these smaller teams seem to be having issues delivering.
    You're still comparing a hypothetical we'll never know (how SL would have released without a delay) with known information (how BfA did release). Moreover, while Covenants may not be the biggest issue with SL I think that the fundamental issues that come with them, forcing teams to have to focus on balancing certain parts of the game they normally may not have had to, is part of the reason this approach is fundamentally flawed (imo, of course). That is to say that in a world where Blizzard was focusing less on a systems-on-systems approach and more on simply delivering a product players will be satisfied with, maybe we wouldn't have needed a delay. This is of course complete conjecture and you're free to disagree with me if you want; I still think coloring my response as "whataboutism" when it's only tertiary to the overlaying point I'm trying to illustrate fails to further the discussion in a meaningful way.

  19. #79
    Wasn't there a virus or something that made many people need to work from home now which caused shit all over the world to be delayed and/or cancelled?

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Wasn't there a virus or something that made many people need to work from home now which caused shit all over the world to be delayed and/or cancelled?
    You and everyone else would have a point if the release date had come before Covid and the pandemic. It didn't so your point doesnt make any sense.

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