Page 1 of 9
1
2
3
... LastLast
  1. #1

    Shadowlands delay -- Proof this direction isn't the best way forward?

    I've been thinking a lot about the delay and how meaningful this choice has been for Blizzard. This is a company that had zero qualms releasing BfA in an unfinished state. Yet, for whatever reason, they're delaying SL for a lot of the same reasons early BfA was criticized: A systems-on-systems approach to game design which is inherently difficult to balance. Whether it's Azerite, Essences, Covenants or Legendaries, Blizzard loves to create problems for themselves which they then have to solve -- and seemingly never really do. It's made me wonder whether the SL delay (which seemed inevitable to anybody who played the beta) will finally begin a push for Blizzard to finally move away from these kinds of systems because of the litany of issues which come along with them. The delay must not have been an easy choice for Blizzard to make and I'm sure there are heated internal discussions to figure out how to prevent such a situation from happening again in the future.

    We likely won't see any major shifts in design philosophy until midway through SL but I'm hopeful that Blizzard is finally realizing that there is beauty in simplicity and that multiple systems riding on other systems creates far more problems than it solves. What do you guys think?

  2. #2
    Dreadlord
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    863
    Maybe.. your.... over thinking this?... just my .02

  3. #3
    Shadowlands is being delayed for the same reasons TBC was delayed, to finish the expansion.

  4. #4
    Anyone who has payed attention to the beta even remotely will tell you this delay is a good thing. It just wasn’t unfinished, the game is in shambles.

  5. #5
    as much as i wish it was for the reasons you think, the delay could be for any number of reasons. to fix the leveling, to balance classes more, to get a little more time to work on the conduits, just to polish things up more for a good impression. a delay doesn't really mean anything beyond the product releasing later than anticipated.

  6. #6
    Herald of the Titans Jazzhands's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Who knows.
    Posts
    2,885
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    I've been thinking a lot about the delay and how meaningful this choice has been for Blizzard. This is a company that had zero qualms releasing BfA in an unfinished state. Yet, for whatever reason, they're delaying SL for a lot of the same reasons early BfA was criticized: A systems-on-systems approach to game design which is inherently difficult to balance. Whether it's Azerite, Essences, Covenants or Legendaries, Blizzard loves to create problems for themselves which they then have to solve -- and seemingly never really do. It's made me wonder whether the SL delay (which seemed inevitable to anybody who played the beta) will finally begin a push for Blizzard to finally move away from these kinds of systems because of the litany of issues which come along with them. The delay must not have been an easy choice for Blizzard to make and I'm sure there are heated internal discussions to figure out how to prevent such a situation from happening again in the future.

    We likely won't see any major shifts in design philosophy until midway through SL but I'm hopeful that Blizzard is finally realizing that there is beauty in simplicity and that multiple systems riding on other systems creates far more problems than it solves. What do you guys think?
    From what I can see, Shadowlands has a lot of issues beyond just covenant balance. They apparently aren't even done with leveling.

    Thing is, we need fun and interesting systems, but we need to avoid bloat and massive balance issues. People want balanced classes, which requires homogenization, but people hate homogenization. Blizzard is fighting an up hill battle no matter which way they go.

    I think the 1% min/maxers need to accept that no matter what system Blizzard does, they get like two options. Blizzard could balance 60 different covenant abilities to within 1% of each other and they would still have like, two options, because they're actually 1.18293% better. Covenants however have huge issues beyond simply balance, that's where Blizzard is messing up royally, and the same was true for things like corruptions, essences, and legendaries. They were fun once you had them, it was getting them that was the issue. Covenants are really cool but they have a bunch of arbitrary limitations and that's the issue.

  7. #7
    Scarab Lord Razorice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Over there --->
    Posts
    4,221
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    Shadowlands is being delayed for the same reasons TBC was delayed, to finish the expansion.
    I think you missed the point.

    OP, I agree Simplicity is best and I really hope Blizzard moves away from over-complicated systems.
    I would have been happier without Covenant abilities, Conduits and Soulbinds.
    I don't really mind a Legendary or two.

  8. #8
    It's delayed because they want to align it with FFXIV major patch 5.4 release early in December.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Razorice View Post
    I think you missed the point.
    I understood his point, I just didn't agree or care for it.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Army Dreamer View Post
    It's delayed because they want to align it with FFXIV major patch 5.4 release early in December.
    lol negative.

  11. #11
    Proof? No. Is It reasonable to speculate that it might be an indication of that? Maybe

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    From what I can see, Shadowlands has a lot of issues beyond just covenant balance. They apparently aren't even done with leveling.

    Thing is, we need fun and interesting systems, but we need to avoid bloat and massive balance issues. People want balanced classes, which requires homogenization, but people hate homogenization. Blizzard is fighting an up hill battle no matter which way they go.

    I think the 1% min/maxers need to accept that no matter what system Blizzard does, they get like two options. Blizzard could balance 60 different covenant abilities to within 1% of each other and they would still have like, two options, because they're actually 1.18293% better. Covenants however have huge issues beyond simply balance, that's where Blizzard is messing up royally, and the same was true for things like corruptions, essences, and legendaries. They were fun once you had them, it was getting them that was the issue. Covenants are really cool but they have a bunch of arbitrary limitations and that's the issue.
    When Covenants were first revealed, a lot of players thought (correctly, imo) their purpose was to be a massive middle finger to the type of player who prefers to make decisions based off of mathematical evidence. Blizzard kept saying in early interviews, "don't worry guys, we'll balance this," (something we've heard time and time again) yet with each new build it seemed like balancing would become harder and harder. And now, even after the delay, it still seems like they have their work cut out for them and a lot of post-launch balancing will be necessary to even begin to move the game in the direction they had seemingly envisaged. It's enough to make you wonder when the developers finally think that enough is enough and begin scaling back some of the problems they then have to design their way out of.

  13. #13
    Sometimes I wonder if you are actually 2 people posting on the same account, on day it seems like Blizzard can do no wrong, and sometimes you acknowledge that not everything is sunshine and rainbows.

    Anyway, I think the game was delayed because ALOT of it is still completely broken, and no I'm not talking about the impossible balance nightmare that they have on their hands. I'm talking about questing, be it leveling or be it endgame. I literally manage to bungle up a character in such a manner that I'm on the 4th part of the Covenant endgame quest chain, have unlocked the second soulbind, but managed to break the first that I can not access the soulforge and the phasing won't let me hand in the quest and I can't get it back either after abandoning it. The Kyrians don't even have options to upgrade their armor yet (and I've been wondering why I'm seemingly the only person that finds world stuff overtuned, while 80% of people jump around with 57 more iLvl) and many more things. Since the last patch didn't change much either I'm pretty sure now that they actually needed this time to finish the expansion in the first place.
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
    WoW:Shadowlands - Danuser's Divina Commedia?

  14. #14
    no,shadowlands doesnt have similar issues to bfa,it had far worst issues than bfa,leveling was broken,the raid wasnt ready,covenants tuning wasnt ready by the fact they nerfed them HUGELY AFTER the release was suposed to come etc etc

    bfa was a perfectly fine working expansion at the beggining by comparison,the only issue was people personal dislike of azerithe
    Last edited by deenman; 2020-10-10 at 02:37 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    Sometimes I wonder if you are actually 2 people posting on the same account, on day it seems like Blizzard can do no wrong, and sometimes you acknowledge that not everything is sunshine and rainbows.
    I don't think everything Blizzard does is bad, but I also don't think everything they do is good. Like a lot of people, I have many opinions about the directions the game is going and just because I might be critical of one part of their design philosophy it doesn't mean I feel like everything else is irreproachable. I get a lot of flak for it because pragmatism is something which a lot of people have a hard time wrapping their minds around.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    bfa was a perfectly fine working exonsion at the beggining by comparison,the only issue was people personal dislike of azerithe
    Shadow Priest and Enhancement Shaman were both released in unfinished states. Azerite had massive changes made to it almost immediately and for all intents and purposes the game didn't really feel like it settled down until 8.1, more than four months after the expansion launched.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    Sometimes I wonder if you are actually 2 people posting on the same account, on day it seems like Blizzard can do no wrong, and sometimes you acknowledge that not everything is sunshine and rainbows.
    Anyone who deals only in one extreme is someone who should be ignored. Acknowledging the good work they do while criticizing the mistakes they make is a good thing, not a bad one.

  17. #17
    The Patient Sezerek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    The Nexus
    Posts
    344
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    covenants tuning wasnt ready by the fact they nerfed them HUGELY AFTER the release was suposed to come
    what do you mean by that? the supposed release was set to end of october, a date that is still in the future, and you are talking about them nerfing the covenants after said release as if it would be something in the past?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    Shadowlands is being delayed for the same reasons TBC was delayed, to finish the expansion.
    Exactly.

    Even if they now realized that all of these shitty system are .. well shit, it's too late now anyway. But they didn't ... system are probably here to stay for a veeeeeeeery long time and they may never shift away.
    Hell they're even trying to come up with more of them.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    the fact they nerfed them HUGELY AFTER the release was suposed to come
    Considering the release was supposed to come in over two weeks in the future still, that is some magic going on there!

    To the OP - there is no special meaning hidden everywhere. It simply was not ready. They will not re-design key-concepts in 4-6 weeks of delay, because thats an impossible goal to achieve. Its also not like there are external factors influencing the entire world right now that may have hampered productivity over the last 9 months or so.
    Last edited by Nevcairiel; 2020-10-10 at 02:50 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    Considering the release was supposed to come in over two weeks in the future still, that is some magic going on there!

    To the OP - there is no special meaning hidden everywhere. It simply was not ready. They will not re-design key-concepts in 4-6 weeks of delay, because thats an impossible goal to achieve.
    ugh!! my ONLY weakness!!! fact checking!! >_<

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •