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  1. #101
    Field Marshal Artale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celvira View Post
    I agree that tanks should be able to pump out decent dps, but vehemently disagree about corruptions needing to exist for it it happen. Tank players should be able to reasonably control their own damage output, and random procs or abilities gained from lucky drops shouldn't be the option to achieving that.

    FFXIV does a pretty good job at letting tanks (and even healers) do some solid ST and AoE damage, which makes both roles feel like they are contributing significantly more (purely subjective here) in parties.
    Eh, FFXIV Tanks always felt more like DPS with extra aggro. There's a reason 3 of them are referred to as Blue DPS; Warrior, Gunbreaker, Dark Knight.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Artale View Post
    Eh, FFXIV Tanks always felt more like DPS with extra aggro. There's a reason 3 of them are referred to as Blue DPS; Warrior, Gunbreaker, Dark Knight.
    True, in casual content tank defensives weren't as important. But when you started doing savage raiding, tanks REALLY needed to efficiently manage their cooldowns and damage to clear fights.

    But ultimately, being able to deal damage is just all-around fun no matter what role you occupy in the party.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Primarily because loss of a dps isn't a wipe, but you have to have a group that drastically outgears the content for a tank death to not also be a wipe.

    And before this spins into a 'who's more important' debate, what reward structure has ever been in place for tanks that is going away? You're doing the same job you always have, just like dps, and just like healers.
    MoP and WoD had a survivability reward structure behind using resources right (im not defending the dmg portion of vengeance it clearly was unhealthy for the game), a good tank was significantly better and keeping themselves alive for a long time with little to no healer involvement. This self sustainability system has been being ground down since MoP, in BFA(pre corruption) and again in Shadowlands my damage barely contributes to the time I kill the boss and my hp bar is most at the mercy of the healers ability to heal me. So its not that specific system is being removed, its more about keeping tanking in a state that really has no role specific impact on raid fights. Even more so its that nothing I press feels impactful, there isn't tank buttons that make you feel like big strongboi whether that be via damage or self sustain and I think this is a gap compared to how the other roles are established. Hitting shieldwall does not feel rewarding like combustion or tranq but back in WoD chaining guards with peaks in resolve felt really good.

  4. #104
    DPS stops being fun too, considering the retarded AOE cap. So I guess, we all re-roll healers now?

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Whoa, whoa! Hold up! You mean they're not nerfing frenzied regen into the ground at the start of the xpac like they have at the beginning of every one since it was added? Why would they break such a sacred tradition?
    They actually nerfed it, but un-nerfed it this week on PTR. Still not changed on beta so maybe it's just a pre-patch thing lol..

    On Beta it's almost a waste of a button right now. When the buff goes through it'll be big, but for now... nope.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by BraveNewWorld View Post
    They actually nerfed it, but un-nerfed it this week on PTR. Still not changed on beta so maybe it's just a pre-patch thing lol..

    On Beta it's almost a waste of a button right now. When the buff goes through it'll be big, but for now... nope.
    I still remember MoP. 60 rage for 30-60% of my health back, no cooldown, no charges. Then the WoD prepatch and it barely healed 20% of my health and I got killed by outdoor elites I'd been farming for months.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I still remember MoP. 60 rage for 30-60% of my health back, no cooldown, no charges. Then the WoD prepatch and it barely healed 20% of my health and I got killed by outdoor elites I'd been farming for months.
    Yeah that sucked, thanks for reminding me why I rerolled from tank to dps.

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Better View Post
    Like I mentioned in the post you replied to, the other 4 players. The healer, and the 3 DPS. In Legion this was literally the case. It did eventually lead to some meme comps with 1 tank, and 4 DPS (usually DPS with insane self sustain like warlocks), but I see that as more of a DPS spec breaking it, rather than the tank. It could also be fixed with important (magic) dispel mechanics that would incentivize actually having a healer.
    The thing is, that would not work. It would essentially mean that Tanks have an unfair advantage over other players who choose to play healer or DPS. ANET tried this approach of doing away with the holy trinity of DPS, Healer, Tank but quickly learned about the error of this logic in high level fractrals where "self sufficient" tanky classes were clearing higher level fractals whilst those players who had put the effort into getting pure DPS classes to 60 were struggling to even solo ascalonian dungeon.

    The biggest farce was the introduction of Vengence as a mechanic for Tanks, I think it really set a messy precedent for expansions to follow.

    You first mentioned that tanks should be self sufficient and that the healer should focus on the DPS and her/himself and that the tank can be "Mr. Big biceps look at me in the corner", one question; where is the teamwork in this?

    If this were to become a thing why even bother having healers and pure DPS? Trust me when I say this, Arenanet played with this idea and at world solo level its good on paper but anything competitive like hugh level fractals or PVP you need dedicated healers like your druids or firebrand and your dedicated tanks like your Chronos.

    World of Warcraft is no different. Having to rely on someone is not a bad thing, it promotes good team work.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Celvira View Post
    True, in casual content tank defensives weren't as important. But when you started doing savage raiding, tanks REALLY needed to efficiently manage their cooldowns and damage to clear fights.

    But ultimately, being able to deal damage is just all-around fun no matter what role you occupy in the party.
    Tank dps was mostly do your rotations correctly and dont cap resources. Aoe was just use the aoe rotation If you have 3 or more targets because then the dmg of the aoe skill are same potency as single target skills. Rest is just safety dance and cd on tank busters. Dps comes from your gear and the efficiency of your rotation is the output.

    DRK OT has the fun option to throw darkest night absorb on dps/healer to keep them alive or on MT for extra resources and dps

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by SkagenRora View Post
    Gonna suck big time to lose beam of devestation, that was one of the most fun things ever.
    If your fun of Tanking comes from the bloated dps numbers that corruptions added it feels like you have sorta picked the wrong role. While Tank Dps is useful and necessary to some extent it is not even remotely the most important part of the role.

    I personally disliked Twillight Devastation and got rid of it as soon we could buy the Corruptions we wanted. Random spikes of damage felt completely unsatisfying. I prefered haste and versatility corruptions to buff both my damage as well as my survivability through more resources and damage reduction, no need to to beat DPS players on the meters. Let them do their job, I do mine.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    If your fun of Tanking comes from the bloated dps numbers that corruptions added it feels like you have sorta picked the wrong role. While Tank Dps is useful and necessary to some extent it is not even remotely the most important part of the role.

    I personally disliked Twillight Devastation and got rid of it as soon we could buy the Corruptions we wanted. Random spikes of damage felt completely unsatisfying. I prefered haste and versatility corruptions to buff both my damage as well as my survivability through more resources and damage reduction, no need to to beat DPS players on the meters. Let them do their job, I do mine.
    Fun is subjective, you know.

  12. #112
    Corruption was one of the worst systems ever added, get over it OP.
    Super Mario Maker 2: Maker ID 8B7-CTF-NMG

    - Sire Denathrius confirmed to have created the Dreadlords.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    Corruption was one of the worst systems ever added, get over it OP.
    Agreed completely.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    If your fun of Tanking comes from the bloated dps numbers that corruptions added it feels like you have sorta picked the wrong role. While Tank Dps is useful and necessary to some extent it is not even remotely the most important part of the role.

    I personally disliked Twillight Devastation and got rid of it as soon we could buy the Corruptions we wanted. Random spikes of damage felt completely unsatisfying. I prefered haste and versatility corruptions to buff both my damage as well as my survivability through more resources and damage reduction, no need to to beat DPS players on the meters. Let them do their job, I do mine.
    Beam was so i could be dps but still have the benefits from tank.

    I never tanked M+ over 9 or any raids, it was just to make M+ more enjoyable that i liked it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    Corruption was one of the best systems ever added,
    Fixed that for you.


    I really dono why any one would dislike it, Corruption helped to remove some of the worst parts of the WoW gameplay.

  15. #115
    Over 9000! Kyphael's Avatar
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    Next week? When has tanking not been a thankless job of dealing with trigger happy huntards, and taking the blame every time there's a wipe because players prefer speed runs over taking basic direction to do things right?

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    Next week? When has tanking not been a thankless job of dealing with trigger happy huntards, and taking the blame every time there's a wipe because players prefer speed runs over taking basic direction to do things right?
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  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by SkagenRora View Post

    I really dono why any one would dislike it, Corruption helped to remove some of the worst parts of the WoW gameplay.
    If WoW is so bad without random unbalanced item procs, why play at all? Are you just hunting from one game design atrocity to the next?

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by SkagenRora View Post
    Beam was so i could be dps but still have the benefits from tank.

    I never tanked M+ over 9 or any raids, it was just to make M+ more enjoyable that i liked it.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Fixed that for you.


    I really dono why any one would dislike it, Corruption helped to remove some of the worst parts of the WoW gameplay.
    No, it is both objectively and subjectively bad. Especially for the health of wow as a whole.
    Super Mario Maker 2: Maker ID 8B7-CTF-NMG

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  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    No, it is both objectively and subjectively bad. Especially for the health of wow as a whole.
    If you say so. But procs of loads of dmg are always the most fun for me, helps to fill in the gaps of dps if you ”Mess up” your rotation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    If WoW is so bad without random unbalanced item procs, why play at all? Are you just hunting from one game design atrocity to the next?
    But what is bad about unbalanced item proccs? More dmg makes stuff die faster.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by BraveNewWorld View Post
    Not entirely true.

    I main bear, and the recent frenzy regen buff on PTR, added with its associated conduit on the beta, stacking mastery + vers, I could in practice heal for 60+% of my hp with one cast of FR. That's a crazy amount of healing. Now add the conduit that auto casts a FR when you drop below 25%.
    That's good news. As someone who has loved guardian tanking and loathed tanks with bad self-healing, I'm hoping this sticks through release.

    Quote Originally Posted by BraveNewWorld View Post
    They actually nerfed it, but un-nerfed it this week on PTR. Still not changed on beta so maybe it's just a pre-patch thing lol..

    On Beta it's almost a waste of a button right now. When the buff goes through it'll be big, but for now... nope.
    Now I feel less hopeful...

    Quote Originally Posted by Protean View Post
    I think being independent of healers may be a good thing. Let tanks survive mostly on their own. Have healers be hybrid dps who's in charge of everybody once aoe hits, or who picks up the tank after a rotational fuckup or a few high damage abilities.

    I get other people probably don't like that idea but it would at least be different.
    Requiring people who don't want to play DPS to suddenly be responsible for DPSing seems like it's going to prove frustrating to them. While some healers are happy to DPS, others abhor it and want to throw out as little DPS as possible, because they find healing enjoyable and DPSing stressful.

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