Keep PVE and PVP Gear Distinct In Battlegrounds

[Misuteri]

I just remember gear having a distinction between oh you have PVP gear and the best legendary/epic from raiding.

Warglaives were rare but gave you a crushing advantage, so did a normal or heroic Gurthalak or Frostmourne. The game has had a history of high end raiding weapons being ridiculous in PVP even at the loss of resilience.

[Kagthul]

idrc if BGs are what 90% of pvpers do.

What a compelling argument. What you personally and anecdotally care about is meaningless.

Realistically you shouldn't be balancing the game around the vast majority who don't know how to play their class effectively.

Realistically that is EXACTLY what you do. Mouthbreathing tryhards dont pay the bills. The plebs do. If the plebs cant have fun, they wont queue. If they dont queue, you get massive queue times, an inflated ladder in Arena, and all sorts of other nasty side effects.

Only thing that should happen in BGs is threshold ilvls so people don't get completely dicked and when they've earnt gear they can start blasting plebs

Your opinion is duly noted and ignored. Every time they've tried to do this, or moved the game closer to this, its MASSIVELY destroyed PvP participation.

The closer to your elitist nirvana they get, the less people play.

"Gear doesn't really matter!" (the Legion mantra with templates, et al) led to a NINETEY PERCENT COLLAPSE in PvP participation.

The more you go back to PvP rewards being meaningful, especially for non-Arena players, the more participation you get. And thats what you want.

Come back when you have a logical remotely adult argument.

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I just remember gear having a distinction between oh you have PVP gear and the best legendary/epic from raiding.

Warglaives were rare but gave you a crushing advantage,

Rare isn't the correct term. The number of people that had them in any given region was in the low hundreds. And most of them didn't Arena. The likelyhood that you were ever going to face someone with Warglaives in the Arena was somewhere near the odds of being struck by lightning.

so did a normal or heroic Gurthalak or Frostmourne.

I have no idea about Gurthalak, but Frostmourne was only about 3x as common as Warglaives. Deathbringers Will (i think that was the name?) was a lot more impactful than any particular raid weapon.

The game has had a history of high end raiding weapons being ridiculous in PVP even at the loss of resilience.

The game has a history people being histrionic about the impact of PvE weapons, when the stats show that the number of those weapons actually in the hands of people PvPing seriously was miniscule at best.

The only reason it got blown so out proportion is because the really, really die-hard, hardcore Arena players had them (which they spent ludicrous amounts of time gaining while ALSO grinding Arena rating) and it looked like it made a difference - likely out of proportion with the actual impact as the skill of the players involved likely had a lot more to do with it.

[Queendom]

"Gear doesn't really matter!" (the Legion mantra with templates, et al) led to a NINETEY PERCENT COLLAPSE in PvP participation.

The more you go back to PvP rewards being meaningful, especially for non-Arena players, the more participation you get. And thats what you want.

Any information to back up the first statement?
As for the second one, not a single competitive-PvP game I know has any rewards besides cosmetics. The only reward is MMR.

[Tarba]

Pvp battlegrounds and arenas should be with the same specific items people can chose from before entering. With enought choices of stat to make Every one viable.
No ilevel and no pve gear. And not something to unlock to be more performant than someone else in it.
Any pvp game when you are more powerfull than your opponent is retarded.

[AlmightyGerkin]

Any pvp game when you are more powerfull than your opponent is retarded.

What... just what? That is how pvp has always been since 2005. That statement is idiotic beyond belief. Never will be an equal playing field at all and hasn't been.

[Spazzix]

Why do people think these elite raiders want to queue into BGs? Aside from farming blood of the enemy back in 8.2 and some random duo queues here and there for lawls, hardcore raiders are spending their time on alts and mix maxing for pve...

I've gotten smashed in BGs by plenty of group queues that have well coordinated cc chains on healers. If you want to win BGs I'd start by thinking about how long a fully geared mythic raider will live when they have 0 heals or how long a fully geared healer will live when they are kicked/silenced/stunned the entire time. There might be some gear discrepancy, but coordination on one side is always going to blast a side without it, regardless of gear.

As to the "why pve get have best gear sad sad super sad face?" There were a fair number of BiS azerite pieces (for pve—m+ at least) from arena. BGs the pvp equivalent of M+ in pve (M+ doesn't get the best gear either, you need to go raid or become a glad for max ilvl gear).

Ultimately, you can get dicked by an uncoordinated team, bad healers, and DPS that can't kick or successfully CC without overlapping everything, and all of those things are much more impactful than a max ilvl guy showing up every few queues. People also generally just don't understand other classes or notice when they pop CDs. They watch an infernal land on their head and tank it, then want to blame ilvl for the massively buffed chaos bolts that inevitably follow. Sure higher ilvl will make those bolts hit harder, but if you have no idea what the lock is doing, you're going to die regardless of who's wearing what gear.

[Soikona]

What... just what? That is how pvp has always been since 2005. That statement is idiotic beyond belief. Never will be an equal playing field at all and hasn't been.

“Has always been since 2005” is not a concrete foundation for an argument, never mind an argument in itself.

[Tarba]

What... just what? That is how pvp has always been since 2005. That statement is idiotic beyond belief. Never will be an equal playing field at all and hasn't been.

It's retarded since 2005. No great news here.

[AlmightyGerkin]

It's retarded since 2005. No great news here.

How pvp has always been is to better and more powerful than your opponent. To try for an equal playing field is just absurd.

[Kagthul]

Any information to back up the first statement?

Literally the Armory. You can mine it for data (and there are sites that do so).

Prior to Legion, about 45-48% of max level characters had the 25,000 Honor/Season achievement. Meaning they got enough honor to get an entire set of PvP gear. This was pretty static all the way from TBC - WoD. Would vary a little (i think it might have fallen to ~42% in Cata), but was pretty stable.

The number of people who completed the 25,000 Conquest achievement always hovered in the ~7-10% range, with half of those not even playing Arena (also visible via Cheevs) - just getting their First-Win bonuses and stuff.

In Legion, the Honor/Season achievements were removed, but Honor RANKS were instituted. The number of ranks to equate to 25k Honor was somewhere around ~20 IIRC (Its been a while, but we did the math here in the forum though im sure those posts are burried, being 3+ years old).

The number of people who go to Honor Rank 20 (and keep in mind, thats = getting 25k Honor in ONE season, and the previous stats were people doing it EVERY season) over the entirety of Legion was sub 10%. Meaning a 90% collapse in participation.

The ranked ladder was even worse. It was more like 95% - since the cheevs for TITLES didn't go away, you could see how many people got Glad in any given season and then do the math backwards to tell you not only how many people got glad/challenger/etc - but the exact number of people that were on the entire ladder.

It IMPLODED.

And we also found out after the first season and a half that the Template system they tried was hillariously broken and actually led to much HIGHER "fresh 110 vs geared character" disparity than any previous system. Previous seasons capped out at a 1 Tier difference (8.1% more stats when Tiers were still 12 iLevels, 9.2%ish when they went to 15 iLevels) between Honor Gear and Conquest gear (And full sets of Honor Gear could be acquired in every xpac after TBC without ever PvPing, so you had no excuse to step into a BG in greens and get blown out. If you did that, it was your chioce).

By mid Season 2 in Legion, we were at an average of 14% stat difference between newbie and guy in a mix of Herioc + Mythic iLevels. By season 3, it was almost 21%.

And that was BEFORE class features, traits, and Artifact Weapon bonuses were added, which were in many cases multiplicative with the PvP iLevel TEmplate bonii.

It was a complete dumpster fire shitshow.

As for the second one, not a single competitive-PvP game I know has any rewards besides cosmetics. The only reward is MMR.

WoW is not, and has not ever been a "competitive-PvP" game, whatever that even means. "PvP game" is not a genre.

And i guess you've never heard of League of Legends (though i admit to being several seasons out of date on League). Where you have to level up to unlock rune slots, talents, etc. That can have a massive impact on how you play (go ahead and try to play an energy-based champ without having the energy regen runes.). Or Destiny 1/2. Or The Division 1/2. And those are just of the top of my head.

MMOs with PvP, almost without exception (i was going to say "without exception", but im sure there are obscure MMOs or ones im just not interested in that might be different) still have progression.

GW2? Gear matters. ESO? Gear matters. FF14? Gear matters.

If you dont like that, go play some other game, likely, a different genre.

People who play MMOs aren't interested in "no rewards" gameplay. The entire reason to play the Genre, AT ALL, is that it features tangible progression.

Games that dont offer that dont appeal to the average MMO gamer.

[Tarba]

How pvp has always been is to better and more powerful than your opponent. To try for an equal playing field is just absurd.

Equal playing field is not absurd. It's how good pvp games work. Retarded ones like wow or p2w games don't, and are pure garbage. I would never imagine playing CS against players who have more life, and do more damage. Where is the fun in that?
Of course there is the retarded fun where you have more life and do more damages than your opponent so you can kill it easily. But that's just retarded fun for retarded players. Not really engaging for many people.

[Charge me Doctor]

Good morning,

Just came back to WoW after a long break and have returned to play within the battlegrounds which is the game play that I enjoy the most.

Sadly, I have come back to the Dev's enabling pve gear to surpass pvp specific gear...yikes!

Just a lone voice in the wilderness here, but I contend that those who play within the battlegrounds should have the superior gear (pvp) to those who focus more upon the pve content of the game. If I were to go into a pve raid or mythic would I be wearing my pvp gear as best in slot?

Is there any news about the Dev's approach to gear in the battleground?

Thanks!

You just returned to the game, probably play a 10k health character and expect not to be blown up to bits? That's the whole point of BGs in wow - you get best gear, you get to kill people, they tried to change it by adding pvp gear (which is now gone afaik) and stats (which are definitely gone now) but it didn't help, because regardless of how you obtain your gear - if you are returning player, you are going to be on a short end of a stick, until you catch up.

Equal playing field is not absurd. It's how good pvp games work. Retarded ones like wow or p2w games don't, and are pure garbage. I would never imagine playing CS against players who have more life, and do more damage. Where is the fun in that?
Of course there is the retarded fun where you have more life and do more damages than your opponent so you can kill it easily. But that's just retarded fun for retarded players. Not really engaging for many people.

Wow was never a pvp game to begin with, the sole goal of BGs and pvp in wow is to outgear your opponent and blast them to bits

WoW is not, and has not ever been a "competitive-PvP" game, whatever that even means. "PvP game" is not a genre.

I'm happy to see people understand that. It's saddens me greatly that blizzard attempted to make it "competitive-pvp" game in tbc and ruined pvp for years

[Kithelle]

What... just what? That is how pvp has always been since 2005. That statement is idiotic beyond belief. Never will be an equal playing field at all and hasn't been.

I mean yeah...that's kinda how pvp works...I haven't played a game that has pvp that isn't like that. MMOs you have gear and class...for shooters is either choosing the best character or the best weapon and best upgrades. For the first game I ever played online in competitive pvp is was choosing the best point allocation...which items were best spending the points on.

PvP isn't purely about skill no matter how hard someone could try to argue otherwise.

[Kaykay]

they could bring back pvp power or similar, but pvp gear should be usefull in pve, and pve gear should be usefull in pvp. And the best gear for pve/pvp should be a combination of both.

[Charge me Doctor]

they could bring back pvp power or similar, but pvp gear should be usefull in pve, and pve gear should be usefull in pvp. And the best gear for pve/pvp should be a combination of both.

that actually reminds me of PvE in WotLK when in naxx tier ret paladins had to use pvp gloves (or 2 tier bonus, can't recall correctly) that boosted crusader strike damage by, like, 10% or something ridiculous like that, and PvE players weren't happy with that (unless they had a DK buddy to do arenas with)

[AlmightyGerkin]

Equal playing field is not absurd. It's how good pvp games work. Retarded ones like wow or p2w games don't, and are pure garbage. I would never imagine playing CS against players who have more life, and do more damage. Where is the fun in that?
Of course there is the retarded fun where you have more life and do more damages than your opponent so you can kill it easily. But that's just retarded fun for retarded players. Not really engaging for many people.

Equal playing field is possible in other games but for wow is it impossible. The way it's designed and the path it's been on for the past 15 years is most likely not going to change. To have some notion and hopefulness on even playing field for pvp is hysterical as asking Blizzard to try and balance things

[Tarba]

Wow was never a pvp game to begin with, the sole goal of BGs and pvp in wow is to outgear your opponent and blast them to bits

That's a very retarded design. No reason to keep that way.

Equal playing field is possible in other games but for wow is it impossible. The way it's designed and the path it's been on for the past 15 years is most likely not going to change. To have some notion and hopefulness on even playing field for pvp is hysterical as asking Blizzard to try and balance things

It's a retarded design, and can easily be fixed.


And my point is. It's not because they have a retarded pvp design for the last 15 years that they can't change that. Mostly when it's clearly easy to do.

[Amariw]

As things stand pvp gear will only be useful for 2.4k people. The rest will need to farm m+. A retarded system that ignores the sucess of pvp in tbc-wod, and the potential good of legion.

When devs realise pvper goals (gearing fast and evenly for rating) are different than pve goals (gearing slow for progression), and that they're best kept seperate we can have fun gearing for both again.

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Equal playing field is possible in other games but for wow is it impossible. The way it's designed and the path it's been on for the past 15 years is most likely not going to change. To have some notion and hopefulness on even playing field for pvp is hysterical as asking Blizzard to try and balance things

It used to be fairly even for tbc all the way till warlords. In most expansions, barring the ocassional rare pve trinket or legendary, pvp gear was the best gearing avenue for pvp and it was fairly easy to get with a conquest grind no matter your rating. It was an even playing field.

[AlmightyGerkin]

That's a very retarded design. No reason to keep that way.


It's a retarded design, and can easily be fixed.


And my point is. It's not because they have a retarded pvp design for the last 15 years that they can't change that. Mostly when it's clearly easy to do.

Proclaim it can be easily fixed, than what do you propose Blizzard should do?

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As things stand pvp gear will only be useful for 2.4k people. The rest will need to farm m+. A retarded system that ignores the sucess of pvp in tbc-wod, and the potential good of legion.

When devs realise pvper goals (gearing fast and evenly for rating) are different than pve goals (gearing slow for progression), and that they're best kept seperate we can have fun gearing for both again.

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It used to be fairly even for tbc all the way till warlords. In most expansions, barring the ocassional rare pve trinket or legendary, pvp gear was the best gearing avenue for pvp and it was fairly easy to get with a conquest grind no matter your rating. It was an even playing field.

May have some validity in your history of even playing field. Always has been people who raid, do high arena will always have the advantage over players who don't. Been that way since TBC.

[Rampant Rabbit]

From my understanding going into shadowlands it's not supposed to be as big of an issue. Doing pvp will be the best way to get pvp gear, and with the honor/conquest upgrade systems it should create much less of a gap.

This is a misleading promise by Blizzard. I think it just means that doing PvP will get you PvP gear the fastest/most efficiently, and that this means there will be other sources for PvP gear, such as PvP themed 'missions' for followers. Not that PvP gear will be more useful than PvE gear in battlegrounds.