Keep PVE and PVP Gear Distinct In Battlegrounds

[Kagthul]

As I've already said, none of these games is a cybersport game, but WoW tries to be,

Facts not in evidence.

They USED to promote it as an e-sport. They no longer do. The tournament is just something to use to fill content at Blizzcon. Its not a serious attempt, they dont have leagues, ladders, etc. Its just the top people who finish really high in the season on live.

They no longer promote it as an eSport.

Just like Heroes of the Storm is no longer an eSport. Because they dont support it.

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What argument did I lose precisely?

The entire thing, kiddo.

Well, I don't care about the entire game, no matter how hard you try.

And this is the part you cant seem to cram through that 5" thick skull.

What you care about... does. not. fucking. matter.

The game is designed (and always HAS been designed) to benefit those who play the entire game, not just one aspect. If you expect that to change... thats literally the definition of insanity. You've had 16 years to get it through your brain that thats how it is. Continiung to expect it to change is insane.

Its not a bug, its a feature.

Sure, that's exactly what I do, but I also want to see this implemented in WoW, because I like its PvP (or BGs, to be precise).

You realize this wasn't quoting you, right? Or are you so full of fail you cant read who is being quoted?

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Yep, insulting because you have nothing to say. Not really surprising. Those sentences still mean nothing, and bring nothing. K K.

No, i proved you wrong AND insulted you. The only defense you have, it seems, is to blindly repeat "you're not saying anything" rather than actually provding a refutation. Thats the very definition of "i lose the argument and will try to distract away from that by talking about something else and/or using an ad-hominem".

So other games with a pvp component that are not retarded. Unlike wow.

Other, ENTIRELY DIFFERENT GENRES. You cant just ignore that because it destroys your argument. They are not MMOs.

Yes... and?
You are watching compilations of winning sequences of a skilled pvp guy against randoms and thinks it's remotely close to the horseshit ilevel we have all the time in wow?
Also are you saying that someone who use gear to look like a mob is stronger than someone else because it tricks them?

So, you dont refute anything. Gotcha. I accept your admission that you are both wrong and have no argument. "A skilled PvP guy" can one-shot people, but other people with the exact same stats cannot? Thats rich. You cant even see how stupid this argument is. You're wrong. Its that simple. One-shotting people doesn't take skill.

And the whole "Acting like a mob" means that he gets the drop on people more easily. It isn't required though.

Who cares the way you label it? Nobody. Don't change anything.

It absolutely does. It changes EVERYTHING. Each genre has different things that define them. Pure shooters dont have RPG mechanics and everyone is on a (theoretically) "even playing field" - thats a feature of THAT GENRE. It is not a feature of your imaginary "PvP games" genre. PLENTY of games with PvP in them have massive disparities in player stats. Some cross genres (Destiny and The Division are shooters, but they are gear-based, progression-based games, and their PvP is impacted by that. Everyone is NOT on an even playing field. There are RTS games where not everyone is on an even field (Age of Empires, that you tried to use as an example of "Everyone is on an even playing field" - has HUGE disparities in unit strengths early game. Some civilizations have EXTREMELY powerful early-game units (Teutons) that if they get them out before you can get mid-game units, they will utterly crush you.

You cant just say "PvP GAEM" and have said anything relevant. You cant seem to grasp that, but thats par for the course at this point, because you seem to think you've made a relevant argument, and you haven't, so... yeah.

Yeah I don't like that and many, many many people don't like that either.

Facts not in evidence. In fact, the facts we DO have contradict this completely. "Many Many people" who want gear-less PvP represented less than 60,000 players in Legion. Down from 625,000 in WoD.

It's good for "players" with the stupid gray kill mentality, that's it.
Else it's pretty much a very boring and stupid concept.
Right now there is absolutely not a single reason to bring a reroll in pvp.
- You get killed easily

Only if you're an idiot who cant take advantage of ways to get PvP gear that dont involve faceplanting into a deathsquad in a BG. That have existed in every xPac since Wrath

- Ilevel pvp is not fun.

Thats an opinion (provably) held by less than 10% of the PvP centric playerbase. So.. thats like, your opinion, man, and not one shared by 90% of PvP centric players.

- Loot is useless

Lolwut?

And for the main.
- Ilevel pvp is not fun.
- Loot is useless

lolwut?

In all cases, you have to push pve content to be able to pvp correctly.

Weird, i ended up at Herioc Raid iLevel in both Season 1 and Season 2 in BfA without ever doing rated PvP OR doing any serious PvE. I.E. as a complete casual, i had gear one step down from the best in the game. Just from BG rewards. Huh.

Most mmos have a retarded pvp component.
And no : "The way PvP works in any game will depend on the genre."
That's completely false.

And that isn't an argument, thats just a statement with no argument to back it up. So, its basically nothing. Provide a breakdown to back up your assertion, or you're basically just dribbling at the mouth in desperation.

The way PvP works in any game will depend of the game.

Distinction without a difference.

Amazing discovery right? It's not because you make a mmo that you have to put stupid ilevel pvp battles like that.

MMOs with no progression are incredibly niche (i cant think of ANY that have a decent following).

Ho. And at least gw2 and destiny put everyone on the same level in pvp.

This just shows that you dont play either game. iLevel/Light Level is normalized in *normal* PvP in both, but what the items do is not nullified. So, while your random legendary Auto Rifle in D2 might have its damaged normalized with my Hard Light.... i will kill you 100% of the time because Hard Light has no damage dropoff from range and 100% accuracy. Which means i can loiter out where your damage falls off and reticle bloom causes you to miss 50% of the time and just rain full-damage shots into you with 100% hit rate as long as you're in the reticle.

GW2 has procs on items, which can single-handedly win you a fight. Sometimes allow you to kill an entire group of people. So iLevel may be normalized (in instanced PvP at least, it isnt in the world) but if i have better gear than you, you're a fucking walking corpse.

And then there's Destiny's Iron Banner - which is about 10x more popular than the "Regular" Destiny PvP (seriously, the servers will crash because of the additional load when its Iron Banner time) - where stats are NOT normalized.

Stuff maters, of course, but they chose to not put a retarded pvp system like wow. INCREDIBLE
Next time you pick examples to support your limited view of something, at leeast make sure that half of them don't go against you.

... the fucking STAGGERING irony of this statement when not a single example you provided supported you is enough to make me legit fall out of my chair laughing at how much you fail.

Ill Tildeer it for you:

You're wrong.

The stats prove you're wrong.

There are not enough people who want "gear doesn't mattah TRUE SKILLZ PEEVEEPEE" to sustain PvP. As in, the number of people who will play under those circumstances is so low that Blizz would simply cut PvP because they cant afford to devote Dev Man Hours to something only ~60k players will do. (Pet Battles get more engagement by a factor of 5, and they only devote 3 devs to that).

I know its hard for you to grasp, but your opinions aren't shared by a significant portion of the player base, and no amount of delusion will make up for that. The stats dont lie.

They aren't going to make the changes you want because that will lose them hundreds of thousands of subs.

Dont like it?

Take your money elsewhere.

I already did (not because of PvP, mind, just because im sorta done with Blizz as a company and Shadowlands simply hoolds ZERO appeal for me).

No shame in it. It aint for you.

Go find something else.

[Tarba]

Facts not in evidence.
No, i proved you wrong AND insulted you. The only defense you have, it seems, is to blindly repeat "you're not saying anything" rather than actually provding a refutation. Thats the very definition of "i lose the argument and will try to distract away from that by talking about something else and/or using an ad-hominem".

No you said a sentence that had absolutely no meaning. I have to quote it back?

Shooters aren't RPGs, news at 11. Different genres are different. Sun comes up in the east, water is wet, etc etc etc.

Amazing bland statement. Because even games from the same genre have differences in pvp. So yeah completely useless. It doesn't mean that rpg pbp should be completely unbalanced by a retarded system.

Other, ENTIRELY DIFFERENT GENRES. You cant just ignore that because it destroys your argument. They are not MMOs.

MMO does not mean retarded pvp system based on stupid ilvel.

Again two of your examples (gw2 and destiny) does not care about ilevel.
So litteraly 2 mmo who don't put a retarded pvp system like wow.

So, you dont refute anything. Gotcha. I accept your admission that you are both wrong and have no argument. "A skilled PvP guy" can one-shot people, but other people with the exact same stats cannot? Thats rich. You cant even see how stupid this argument is. You're wrong. Its that simple. One-shotting people doesn't take skill.

And the whole "Acting like a mob" means that he gets the drop on people more easily. It isn't required though.

Nope it just seems that you don't understand that skill is different than ilevel.
Most of the videos like that, are first, edited to show the victories, and people use a specific build, game mechanic with multiple buffs. All that can be used by other players when they meet them. In wow you have to add ilevel. It's basically like meeting a guy at the end of DS while you just started. Wich would be completely stupid. Like wow.

It absolutely does. It changes EVERYTHING. Each genre has different things that define them. Pure shooters dont have RPG mechanics and everyone is on a (theoretically) "even playing field" - thats a feature of THAT GENRE. It is not a feature of your imaginary "PvP games" genre. PLENTY of games with PvP in them have massive disparities in player stats. Some cross genres (Destiny and The Division are shooters, but they are gear-based, progression-based games, and their PvP is impacted by that. Everyone is NOT on an even playing field. There are RTS games where not everyone is on an even field (Age of Empires, that you tried to use as an example of "Everyone is on an even playing field" - has HUGE disparities in unit strengths early game. Some civilizations have EXTREMELY powerful early-game units (Teutons) that if they get them out before you can get mid-game units, they will utterly crush you.

You cant just say "PvP GAEM" and have said anything relevant. You cant seem to grasp that, but thats par for the course at this point, because you seem to think you've made a relevant argument, and you haven't, so... yeah.

Lol you probably don't play aoe2. Teutons have no bonus on units until castle age. I've finished a lot of games without letting my opponent going to it. And their starter economic bonus is not that great. There are a shit tone of civs better to rush dark / feodal / castle. And if you are talking about teuton knights, then lol. They are easy to counter with archers.
Maybe an all in tower rush? But then again I would clearly prefer other civs.

And also I personnaly never met a teuton whose units have more life and do more damages than I can obtain, when I play teuton.
Your argument is basically "druids do more heal than rogues". All civilisations have different strenghts, depending of the strat they use. Like classes and builds. But a same civilisation is not stronger than the same civilisation of your opponent. It will all depend of the strat they'll use and skill.

So yeah completely irrelevant and wrong.

Only if you're an idiot who cant take advantage of ways to get PvP gear that dont involve faceplanting into a deathsquad in a BG. That have existed in every xPac since Wrath

Only if you are playing against idiots who are not here to win. So yeah, completely irrelevant.

Thats an opinion (provably) held by less than 10% of the PvP centric playerbase. So.. thats like, your opinion, man, and not one shared by 90% of PvP centric players.

Lolwut?

lolwut?

Weird, i ended up at Herioc Raid iLevel in both Season 1 and Season 2 in BfA without ever doing rated PvP OR doing any serious PvE. I.E. as a complete casual, i had gear one step down from the best in the game. Just from BG rewards. Huh.

Heroic ilevel it's what? 3/4 weeks of pve? Good you could get that at the end of the season!

And that isn't an argument, thats just a statement with no argument to back it up. So, its basically nothing. Provide a breakdown to back up your assertion, or you're basically just dribbling at the mouth in desperation.


Distinction without a difference.

Well I'll use again your own examples. GW2 and destiny are mmo with pvp component and are smart enought to not bring ilvel into count. So go on, explain to me how two of the 4 mmo you talked about manage pvp not a in a different way, while they actually do.

MMOs with no progression are incredibly niche (i cant think of ANY that have a decent following).

Who talks about no progression? I'm talking about fair pvp in instancied pvp zones.

This just shows that you dont play either game. iLevel/Light Level is normalized in *normal* PvP in both, but what the items do is not nullified. So, while your random legendary Auto Rifle in D2 might have its damaged normalized with my Hard Light.... i will kill you 100% of the time because Hard Light has no damage dropoff from range and 100% accuracy. Which means i can loiter out where your damage falls off and reticle bloom causes you to miss 50% of the time and just rain full-damage shots into you with 100% hit rate as long as you're in the reticle.

GW2 has procs on items, which can single-handedly win you a fight. Sometimes allow you to kill an entire group of people. So iLevel may be normalized (in instanced PvP at least, it isnt in the world) but if i have better gear than you, you're a fucking walking corpse.

You know you don't need to write complete stupid exagerations "I'M AN INVINCIBLE GOD LOLILOL I KILL GROUPS ON MY OWN§§§" to support a retarded system. Appart for the obvious lies, it doesn't help.

And then there's Destiny's Iron Banner - which is about 10x more popular than the "Regular" Destiny PvP (seriously, the servers will crash because of the additional load when its Iron Banner time) - where stats are NOT normalized.

There are a lot of complaints against it.

... the fucking STAGGERING irony of this statement when not a single example you provided supported you is enough to make me legit fall out of my chair laughing at how much you fail.

Once again, two of your examples literraly do as I say. which is not having an as retarded instancied pvp as wow.

Ill Tildeer it for you:

You're wrong.

The stats prove you're wrong.

What stat?
Also Legion was also a stupid system. If you can't chose the stats on your stuff, you can't have the build you want.

There are not enough people who want "gear doesn't mattah TRUE SKILLZ PEEVEEPEE" to sustain PvP. As in, the number of people who will play under those circumstances is so low that Blizz would simply cut PvP because they cant afford to devote Dev Man Hours to something only ~60k players will do. (Pet Battles get more engagement by a factor of 5, and they only devote 3 devs to that).

I know its hard for you to grasp, but your opinions aren't shared by a significant portion of the player base, and no amount of delusion will make up for that. The stats dont lie.

They aren't going to make the changes you want because that will lose them hundreds of thousands of subs.

Dont like it?

Take your money elsewhere.

I already did (not because of PvP, mind, just because im sorta done with Blizz as a company and Shadowlands simply hoolds ZERO appeal for me).

No shame in it. It aint for you.

Go find something else.

First I don't play wow anymore. I still can criticize stupid ideas. Like how they manage pvp. The rest is just your assumption that wow pvp players prefer gray kill pvp and farming pve gear over skill.

[Queendom]

The entire thing, kiddo.

Again what thing?

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You realize this wasn't quoting you, right? Or are you so full of fail you cant read who is being quoted?

I don't see how does this prevent me from quoting you.

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Facts not in evidence.

They USED to promote it as an e-sport. They no longer do. The tournament is just something to use to fill content at Blizzcon. Its not a serious attempt, they dont have leagues, ladders, etc. Its just the top people who finish really high in the season on live.

They no longer promote it as an eSport.

Except they do, and there's a whole section of the website called "ESPORTS" https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/esports/arena

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The game is designed (and always HAS been designed) to benefit those who play the entire game, not just one aspect. If you expect that to change... thats literally the definition of insanity. You've had 16 years to get it through your brain that thats how it is. Continiung to expect it to change is insane.

It was different just 2 years ago, so "always" does not apply.

[Fkiolaris]

As a full casual that still likes to optimise within my limits and targets, the main issue I see with the Shadowlands pvp gearing system (and I fully appreciate I might be behind with the updates in Beta) is the stupid amount of grinding you have/had to do in order to get AND upgrade your pvp gear. First of all, I don't get out of whose arse they pulled the 6 tiers/levels/whatever to upgrade your whole set, they could have kept it 4 max to reflect the (supposed) path of a pve player in raids but ideally 2 would have been enough. Second of all, I imagine they have/will probably cut the cost per upgrade to a reasonable amount where a casual should be able to easily do a full set, purchase or upgrade, per week. If it takes longer, forget about alts or starting late if you want to gear via pvp.

[docterfreeze]

"Gear doesn't really matter!" (the Legion mantra with templates, et al) led to a NINETEY PERCENT COLLAPSE in PvP participation.

Let's be honest, there were a ton of shitty changes coming into legion that led to a big drop in PvP participation. Every single one of the legion class reworks brought the skill ceiling down, taking PvP to a level of simplicity and rock/paper/scissors not seen since TBC. Players were picking up a spec they've never played before and playing it at blizzcon after one week of practice. Acquiring gear was completely RNG and getting high ilvl took much more effort in PvP vs PvE. Consumables and PvP trinkets including engineering tinkers were disabled in BGs, except for those stupid BG potions that could increase your damage by 30% or instantly heal you for half your health.

[Clarissa]

What they did in legion was NOT to make gear irrelevant in BGs, it was only to make ilevel the only relevant parameter. Everything was still scaled according to your ilevel, you just didn't get to choose your mix of secondary stats. You still needed to obtain gear to increase said ilevel, and getting it from pvp only was already a miserable experience, that bfa managed to make even worse. You were hugely disadvantaged compared to pve heroes that had higher ilevels. That's what caused the drop in participation.

I don't know why people say that gear didn't matter in legion's instanced pvp. If clearly did. Either they have the memory of a goldfish or are too dumb to have understood how it worked at the time. Neither would surprise me from wow players.