Was making old gods not the big bad a mistake?

[Shelly]

The Titans have not. Sargeras has destroyed planets for being corrupted, and that is why the Titans threw him out. Sargeras is the good guy in the WoW story. The Titans are just another bad guy, using us for their plans.

We are created by the old gods to oppose the Titans. But we should have sided with Sargeras to defeat the Void Lords.

Entire worlds bathed in the makers flames.

It's not just Sargeras cleansing OGs dude.

And no, only the Mogu were made to specifically fight the OGs and possibly the steel/thunderforged.

Trolls, Elves (read pretty trolls), Tauren and Pandaren are entirely native. As are other non-playable races such as the Quillboar, Jinyu, etc.

Not sure they ever cover whom the Goblin descend from.

Gnomes were worker drones to create and maintain the titanic engines.

Dwarves were Earthen, made to mostly maintain titanic creations and build them.

Steelforged/Stormforged appear to mostly be retainer class constructs made specifically for Odyn to do whatever job he saw fit for them.

Only the Mogu were made specifically to fight the OG's under the direct command of Raden.

So no. We weren't made to fight the OGs specifically by the Titans and beyond that too Sargeras is an ENEMY.

He gave himself over to the corruption of Fel magics and disorder. Which is a huge problem for creatures that have an entire pantheon built around the creation of order itself. Beyond that too he's just another death cult the same as the OGs, only he'd like to rewrite the entire universe itself. At least with the other Titans there's the implication they can rebuild from the ashes!

[AlmightyGerkin]

Blizzard still has a chance to redeem themselves with the Old God story.


Brand new raid instance that takes place during the war between the Titanforged and the Black Empire; the assault on Y'Shaarj leading up to Aman'Thul reaching down and ripping him out of Azeroth.


THAT would be a fun raid.

That would be neat if done correctly. Could be awesome fighting along side the titans and eventually seeing a cinematic of the titans creating the well of eternity

[Kathranis]

Legion was always the big bad not old gods.

Well, I'd say the Legion was intended to be the overarching antagonist group from Reign of Chaos through Warlords of Draenor. They were invented with the new WC3 backstory to be the force behind the orcish invasion of Azeroth and a greater threat that the Horde and Alliance would have to unite against.

According to Metzen, the Old God stuff was an idea they came up with during development of Warcraft III, and the Forgotten Ones and Faceless Ones appeared in Azjol-Nerub in The Frozen Throne. With WoW being an MMORPG they were able to expand on a lot of those "weird ideas" in order to build up and flesh out the world, which is what led to the Silithid and AQ.

At the time I don't think they envisioned the Old Gods as much beyond primordial Lovecraftian deities that ruled Azeroth before it was ordered by the Titans. They were built up gradually from expansion to expansion, eventually becoming the driving forces behind both Cataclysm and Mists, and were certainly painted as manipulators that orchestrated a lot of the conflicts on Azeroth, but they were still very much a recurring side enemy, sort of like the trolls.


It seems that it was while developing the Legion expansion in 2015-2016 that they decided to branch out into a more diverse assortment of big bads, with Chronicle outlining the six cosmic forced, introducing the void lords, and recontextualized Sargeras's crusade as a war against their minions. I think at that point they realized that demons and green fire were a well they couldn't keep returning to indefinitely.

At the time it seemed that they were setting up the void lords to be an even greater evil than the Legion, the "true big bads" as it were. However, it now seems that while developing the Shadowlands expansion, they've decided to instead elaborate on the six cosmic forces and put them against each other in a greater cosmic war.

In doing so, they're laying the foundation for many possible future storylines with a much more diverse assortment of possible enemies that we can fight, which should allow them to explore more themes and aesthetics than if WoW's villains just boiled down to green fire or purple miasma.

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That would be neat if done correctly. Could be awesome fighting along side the titans and eventually seeing a cinematic of the titans creating the well of eternity

https://www.deviantart.com/yeastsold...aarj-663068133

Like pulling up weeds.

[Jetstream]

Now they just seem like nasty parasites instead of mysterious lovecraftian beings.

What makes you think they're not the big bads?

Because we killed them?

Cuz, uh, that doesn't tend to stick with that kind of critter.

[Nize]

Directly, it didn't have to. Indirectly, Blizzard writers seemed to gloss over N'zoth being built up knowing there's a bigger bad lurking behind that. The fight against N'zoth in 8.3 didn't feel that big. The only 3 big characters that seemed to give a shit about N'zoth were Magni, MOTHER, and Wrathion. The rest waved him off by telling us to quickly dismantle him so we focus on Sylvanas.

[ohwell]

They effectively remain the big bads, because they are physical extensions of the great Void Lords of beyond. They are also a grave danger to the universe, I would say this was laughably obvious in 8.3. At the climax of the Ny'alotha raid, N'Zoth the Old God attempted to merge Ny'alotha with the very World Soul of Azeroth. Had he succeeded, Azeroth would've been transformed into a Void Titan, and then the cosmos would've truly been doomed. That's why the fight to defeat N'Zoth, is the fight to defend the universe from obliteration, as was stated in the encounter journal.

I mean we haven't seen another one in ages. They aren't the big bads. It's unknown what the Void Lords think they're doing because essentially they shot their load somehow into the universe hoping it would hit a sleeping titan. 4 of them did to our knowledge and all 4 were defeated ages ago. They all seem to have autonomy yet one would imagine the void would know there hasn't been a void titan. We also know it takes a while and Sargeras had been scouring the universe.

Unless there's a titan already out there, they aren't the big bads.

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Directly, it didn't have to. Indirectly, Blizzard writers seemed to gloss over N'zoth being built up knowing there's a bigger bad lurking behind that. The fight against N'zoth in 8.3 didn't feel that big. The only 3 big characters that seemed to give a shit about N'zoth were Magni, MOTHER, and Wrathion. The rest waved him off by telling us to quickly dismantle him so we focus on Sylvanas.

I wouldn't crap my pants over the weakest of them just getting free now so why should most of us. Yogg was essentially free and Cthun was as well as both prisons were broken(Cthun got resealed by the WotSS) and Yogg had control of his jailers. Hell we just beat Nzoth's strongest weapon when he got free and even she could have been mopped up by Jaina and Malfurion(had he chosen to show up).

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What makes you think they're not the big bads?

Because we killed them?

Cuz, uh, that doesn't tend to stick with that kind of critter.

Ummm yes....they're dead. Confirmed dead. I mean I guess Nzoth isn't confirmed dead, but the other 3 are. Yeah it sticks with old gods, so take your head canon to another thread....or just no threads.

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Like pulling up weeds.

It's actually weird Ysharrj was the only one that had what seems like a body while the other 3 were just like a head with eyes and tentacles.

[Aquinan]

What's to stop another from being hurled at the planet?

IIRC from the Chronicles it took a massive effort of concentration on the void lords part to rip reality enough to send the Old GOds that made it through. Who's to say they can do it again /now /ever again?

[Evaddon]

... no? That isn't supported at all in the lore.

The old gods are as powerful as Sargeras and as the Titans. That is why the only option Sargeras had was to destroy entire planets to remove the old gods.

The old gods are responsible for the creation of life as we know it on Azeroth. Every player is the creation of the old gods. We are Frankenstein's monster, rising up to kill our creators.

And why? Because the Titans told us to? The same Titans that more than once wanted to exterminate us all. The same Titans who view us as corruption upon their creation. Because we are. We represent DISORDER and do not fit into the ORDER of the Titans. They will eventually turn on us, when we stop being useful to them. We are their tool, like the demons of the Legion are the tool of Sargeras.

The Old Gods are not as powerful as Sargeras or the Titans, The Titans literally ripped one off of Azeroth..and its definitely supported by lore that they're parasites with their only purpose to infect a Titan World soul...as parasites do, Sargeras destroys planets where these parasites are to deeply rooted, he fears them succeeding in their plan so he wants to remove the possibility all together, by extinguishing worlds

They are 100% not responsible for all life on Azeroth, they're are responsible for the Curse of Flesh, which infected Titan creations making them mortal and weak. Everything you said was wrong there...lol

but I do agree that the Titans aren't "good guys" or really on our side we are a means to an end for them, but that's not the topic of discussion so I don't know why you started to ramble there. If you're going to claim something isn't supported by lore, please know the lore don't just talk out of your ass

[Alanar]

Now they just seem like nasty parasites instead of mysterious lovecraftian beings.

They always felt like nasty parasites to me. The mystery around them was destroyed in mop imo.

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Directly, it didn't have to. Indirectly, Blizzard writers seemed to gloss over N'zoth being built up knowing there's a bigger bad lurking behind that. The fight against N'zoth in 8.3 didn't feel that big. The only 3 big characters that seemed to give a shit about N'zoth were Magni, MOTHER, and Wrathion. The rest waved him off by telling us to quickly dismantle him so we focus on Sylvanas.

This felt true for me as well. Most leaders r people who could help us were already at a differnt party. Nzoth was a big filler imo, 8.3 was a horrible patch.

[Jetstream]

Ummm yes....they're dead. Confirmed dead. I mean I guess Nzoth isn't confirmed dead, but the other 3 are. Yeah it sticks with old gods, so take your head canon to another thread....or just no threads.

Dude. They're C'thulu Mythos monsters. Yes, they're dead. Until they're not dead anymore. That's pretty standard.

That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.

They're not from here.

[Villager720]

We'd been killing them and their progeny for almost a decade when we learned "what" they were.
I think the notion that "they're the ultimate threat to everything" has never quite tracked with our experiences with them.

Which is to say, they've never been the big bads.

[Lucetia]

N'zoth was all talk and no game. Yeah he was responsible for Deathwing and Azshara but he can only get so much credit for others achievements. Azshara even says herself, "For all his bluster, N'Zoth was ever the weakest of his kin."

That's the whole thing though. N'Zoth knows he is the weakest of all the old gods on Azeroth. What set N'Zoth apart was that he didn't focus on strength or such like the other old gods. He focused on mind games, setting things up, etc. Him "dying" was very likely his whole plan as he knows he is still weak and in order to make us forget about him / powerful or whatever he wants us to believe he is dead and everything is done. We don't know if he had any plans set up or if he even died and it wasn't a vision. Magni comments that the whispers still exist but not as bad which could mean he is alive just retreating to give a false sense of hope. We know that N'zoth isn't afraid to create any illusion that makes us think something, heck he even used Wrathion at the start of the raid.

Ummm yes....they're dead. Confirmed dead. I mean I guess Nzoth isn't confirmed dead, but the other 3 are. Yeah it sticks with old gods, so take your head canon to another thread....or just no threads.

Didn't they already say all the others are still alive and recovering and the only way to kill an old god was to destroy its heart? Which is why Y'sharrj was still poisoning Panderia due to his heart being there which was finally destroyed in our battle against Garrosh allowing everything to heal. That's why they said Icecrown is still affect due to Yogg-Saron still being alive, just barely but he is recovering. Same with C'thun.

[Inoculate]

Be funny to find out that Azeroth is actually a sleeping first one (which is why her power literally erased an Old God so easily) and that's why the stone reacted to us in the Maw since we are Azeroth's champion and probably imbued with her powers / blessing and all the six forces are using her as a battery to produce an unending supply of anima via the reality bubble she creates while she slumbers.

Would explain all the titan tech used on the planet, all the controls in place. The facilities. Argus was a world soul planet yet has no evidence of any existing titan structures and I'm sure Sargeras would have been using those if they existed.

Would also explain why every cosmic force is present on Azeroth. Why Elune herself watches over the planet, though that is somewhat speculative as she is just the personification of the white lady, not said directly to be the literal representation of.

I could just be high but it's fun to think of.

[Ryonas]

Didn't they already say all the others are still alive and recovering

Nope. Dead. All dead. PERMAdead.

[Lucetia]

Nope. Dead. All dead. PERMAdead.

Do you have a source on that? Last I saw was somewhere saying the opposite.

[Inoculate]

Do you have a source on that? Last I saw was somewhere saying the opposite.

Yeah, you are correct. Even the newest article says that cosmiclogically forces go back to their planes of creation. Demons to twisting nether, light to the light, void to void, etc.

But from an interview during Blizzcon -

Question: Can you confirm or deny whether the old gods are dead? We've got a lot of people who think that we've only fought manifestations, and their true forms lie dormant somewhere. Are we maybe going to see more of that?

Answering: Steve Danuser

Confirms that we've killed their forms, in the cases of Yogg'Saron and C'thun despite echoes of them still seeming to permeate the world.

"If you think about our cosmology and the way that creatures of magic work as opposed to mortals, mortals die they go to the Shadowlands. If you fought the Legion, you fought demons. If you kill them on Azeroth, where do they go? Back to the Twisting Nether, which is the place where they come from."

"So if you think about other magical creatures and think what happens when you kill them on Azeroth, where do they go? There's the potential for things like that to kind of happen. We try to have this cosmology of the way things work, and that's something that you can apply to other things. And I think the old gods are an interesting case where, you know, we've defeated one version of them and who knows if another manifestation will eventually take place."

[Aresk]

Didn't they already say all the others are still alive and recovering and the only way to kill an old god was to destroy its heart? Which is why Y'sharrj was still poisoning Panderia due to his heart being there which was finally destroyed in our battle against Garrosh allowing everything to heal. That's why they said Icecrown is still affect due to Yogg-Saron still being alive, just barely but he is recovering. Same with C'thun.

I don't recall their confirming that they were still alive. I know they confirmed they were canonically defeated, but a lot of people interpreted "defeated" to mean "dead" when it clearly doesn't (e.g. SoO). They've also said we may not have seen the last of them. But this would be the first time that I've heard Blizzard has confirmed that they're still alive.

[Aucald]

While it's decidedly a non-canon story, if you want an example of the Old Gods and their minions done right in the vein of WoW I can think of no better example than the Azjol-Nerub portion of the Travels Through Azeroth and Outland travelogue created by Destron. His description of an attack by a Faceless One within Ahn'kahet:

"Stone quivered beneath our feet, accompanied by thick, wet sounds somewhere between dripping water and tearing flesh. Aimless piping shrieked along, constant but without beat or rhythm, the song of a lunatic. A deathguard fell to his knees, gloved hands pressed to his temples as he rocked back and forth.

Vast and pale, a mass of flesh bulged up from the platform’s edge, the surface shimmering like water. A wide spine-like plate of segmented bone ran down the front, pressing against a beard of dripping tendrils, its piercing song played through suppurating holes all along the skin.

Guns blazed to life, bullets splashing into the faceless one, the ruptures reconnecting in an instant. More of its body slithered into sight, pulled to the side by the weight of a vast and soft right arm ending in a crude hand. A muscular tentacle hung from the left, mottled colors playing along the fluid skin. Frightened Forsaken opened another volley in response. The kneeling guard fell into a twitching heap."

[Golden Yak]

While it's decidedly a non-canon story, if you want an example of the Old Gods and their minions done right in the vein of WoW I can think of no better example than the Azjol-Nerub portion of the Travels Through Azeroth and Outland travelogue created by Destron. His description of an attack by a Faceless One within Ahn'kahet:

I love that sequence. Especially the bits about colors in the air and transforming a fireball spell into flesh that it absorbs. That's some eldritch done right.

[UndedoKoleda]

That's the whole thing though. N'Zoth knows he is the weakest of all the old gods on Azeroth. What set N'Zoth apart was that he didn't focus on strength or such like the other old gods. He focused on mind games, setting things up, etc. Him "dying" was very likely his whole plan as he knows he is still weak and in order to make us forget about him / powerful or whatever he wants us to believe he is dead and everything is done. We don't know if he had any plans set up or if he even died and it wasn't a vision. Magni comments that the whispers still exist but not as bad which could mean he is alive just retreating to give a false sense of hope. We know that N'zoth isn't afraid to create any illusion that makes us think something, heck he even used Wrathion at the start of the raid.

So, he wants everyone to believe that he is dead, but... he keeps whispering to the person, who can tell everyone about it? Dunno if he is the weakest, but he certainly seems like the most retarded Old God on Azeroth.

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I don't recall their confirming that they were still alive. I know they confirmed they were canonically defeated, but a lot of people interpreted "defeated" to mean "dead" when it clearly doesn't (e.g. SoO). They've also said we may not have seen the last of them. But this would be the first time that I've heard Blizzard has confirmed that they're still alive.

The one in SoO is the absolutely 100% dead one.

Edit:

Don't get your hopes up about the Old Gods. Blizzard are setting up the Nathrezim as the new "schemers" in WoW.