Assasination rogues should not have S&D. Change my mind.

[nagano]

I agree, at first I was intrigued by it, but now that I have played it for a few days I hate SnD in the rotation. It doesn’t fit well, feel right and is extremely meh. I will probably be moving to combat this weekend.

[Malkiah]

Is that the right ability? Because unless I'm reading that wrong, that says you get energy back when your bleeds deal damage which isn't related to poisons or auto-attacks.

"when Garrote or Rupture deal Bleed damage to a poisoned target."

to a poisoned target.

faster auto-attack = more deadly poison applications = more uptime on poison on the target = more venomous wounds.

i mean it's obviously not going to be a HUGE difference - what's the average uptime on deadly poison over the course of a fight? i'll be honest i haven't tracked that.
if it's near to 100% uptime well then fuck it, i concede SnD will do nothing. otherwise, it will have an impact on that, even if it's not a big one.

[Moggers1990]

"when Garrote or Rupture deal Bleed damage to a poisoned target."

to a poisoned target.

faster auto-attack = more deadly poison applications = more uptime on poison on the target = more venomous wounds.

i mean it's obviously not going to be a HUGE difference - what's the average uptime on deadly poison over the course of a fight? i'll be honest i haven't tracked that.
if it's near to 100% uptime well then fuck it, i concede SnD will do nothing. otherwise, it will have an impact on that, even if it's not a big one.

Yeah, poison "uptime" hasn't been a thing for years now. If you're attacking a target, you'll have 99.9% uptime. At the very worst, it'll take 2-4 auto attacks before Deadly Poison applies but between auto attacks and Mutilate/FoK it will instantly apply 99% of the time. In any case, by the time you've put Garrote and Rupture on a target, it will be poisoned.

Muti has had a talent (Cut to the Chase) that removed having to actively maintain SnD for the majority of the game's lifetime. Having to maintain SnD in shadowlands is not just neutral spec development it's backward spec development.

There is actually no argument why Muti should have to fiddle around with SnD, not even an appeal to nostalgia.

Edit: I'm not actually against SnD returning for Combat, it's not only thematic but it fills the hole left by RtB (and even interacts with roll the bones, blow me down). The problem is this lazy blanket appeal to nostalgia in lieu of considered, meaningful spec development.

Agreed.

It makes some sense for Outlaw, seeing as they lost Roll the Bones and they don't "maintain" anything else. It also generally has a more potent effect because they use slower weapons and it leads to a lot more energy gain from the off-hand proc.

With Sub, it's about the same. They can use a slower off-hand but they gain energy AND combo points from auto attacks, plus they only have Rupture and their burst "window" is never in danger of starving yourself of energy because of how talents/spells effect Shadow Dance. It'll be like an equivalent talent that makes Toxic Blade (Shiv) give 100 Energy over 6 seconds thus negating any need for "pooling" when it's coming off cooldown.
They also have a special, brand new talent that automatically casts it for them. A real "fuck you!" to Assassination.


It's just obvious they're trying to bring specs back to how they were in Vanilla/TBC because of the whole "Classic is what we want! Classic is so much better, deeper and more enjoyable than Retail". It's complete bullshit and will probably end up ruining the game for a lot of people if they go too far.

[mitre27]

Make blindside default for assassination so we have an extra button even when it's not the current meta, and get rid of SnD, SnD is garbage, adds no fun to the gameplay and honestly nobody wanted it back for assassination.

- - - Updated - - -

"when Garrote or Rupture deal Bleed damage to a poisoned target."

to a poisoned target.

faster auto-attack = more deadly poison applications = more uptime on poison on the target = more venomous wounds.

i mean it's obviously not going to be a HUGE difference - what's the average uptime on deadly poison over the course of a fight? i'll be honest i haven't tracked that.
if it's near to 100% uptime well then fuck it, i concede SnD will do nothing. otherwise, it will have an impact on that, even if it's not a big one.

Once deadly poison is up, it remains up, you will almost always get deadly poison up before you even activate slice and dice.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

As they already have it, whether they should or should not is irrelevant.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Rogues shouldn't have slice and dice and that's the end of it. Nobody likes this dumb mechanic. Just like nobody liked inquisition when ret paladins had it.

[Malkiah]

just conceding the point, to everyone who quoted me to counter what i said - yep, i was wrong, with basically 100% uptime on deadly poison, SnD does fuck-all for assass rogues.
sorry for cluttering this thread with garbage that was literally inaccurate.

[Aurosh]

just conceding the point, to everyone who quoted me to counter what i said - yep, i was wrong, with basically 100% uptime on deadly poison, SnD does fuck-all for assass rogues.
sorry for cluttering this thread with garbage that was literally inaccurate.

It has been already changed to grant 10% energy regen in beta.

https://youtu.be/eoUva8_Druo

[orsraunia]

I was against SnD for assassination. Changing it to provide energy instead of attack speed is a positive change imo, because it should make for faster gameplay, which is needed for assassination. Still, the initial ramp up time should still be nasty, so I believe we need a mechanic to reduce that, like sub has with premeditation auto applying SnD. If something like this happens, I think I'll move to the "maybe it's ok, lets give it a shot" camp.

[Tyze]

SnD just feels bad on every spec. I don't know about max level tho, but for leveling its just terrible, feels awful.

[mitre27]

Even if they buff SnD to be OP, it's still a boring skill, we lost poison blade and instead got this dull ass skill back that literally nobody wants.

I'm against them adding another skill that needs to be maintained whether it's SnD or others.

[Alexplode]

"when Garrote or Rupture deal Bleed damage to a poisoned target."

to a poisoned target.

faster auto-attack = more deadly poison applications = more uptime on poison on the target = more venomous wounds.

i mean it's obviously not going to be a HUGE difference - what's the average uptime on deadly poison over the course of a fight? i'll be honest i haven't tracked that.
if it's near to 100% uptime well then fuck it, i concede SnD will do nothing. otherwise, it will have an impact on that, even if it's not a big one.

i get your point but still, it sounds like a mediocre-low dps gain for making a huge commitment introducing S&D in your rotation. i rather have that damage baked in to bleeds/poisons.

[Eazy]

Almost a week after the pre-patch and I still don't understand why Blizzard decided to add SnD back. Every time I realize that I have to use it my teeth itch.

It was useless ability in terms of fun. Right now it's even worse.

Wanna do DMG in PvE/M+/PvP? You have to put 2 dots on your target and use SnD... while wasting 8-10 combo points on the preparation before you can do actually any damage. It's not like Shadow Priests/Warlocks/Any other class where you just put dots and be done with it.
You need combo points first to be able to actually put the dots and use that boring SnD.

Almost every class can just pop-up CDs -> use a few abilites -> boom big burst.
Assassination? Use energy, use CDs, gather combo points, put 2 dots, use SnD -> boom... slighty higher sustained damage that still do less damage than most of the other DPS classes(newest SL sims with legendaries/conduits/covenants).

I don't like it. It feels like "How many things you can maintain?".
I was always playing Assa(changed to Sub in the late HFC for a few months), but now I am seriously considering changing the spec.

In before "omg it's just one ability, you can just click on it and be done" - that's the problem. It's no fun..

I'd rather see SnD scrapped from Assassination and buffed Rupture/Garrote dmg.

[Schmilblick]

SND is bad and boring for all 3 specs.

[Sevarin]

ive got it. the way to change your mind is to make snd a completely passive ability. rogues are supposed to be quick, after all.

[Gotural]

I wanted S&D back.

I f**king love it.

I'm a Rogue, I'm supposed to be the fast autoattacking class, and now I am. It truly feels like a DPS steroid.

[Alexplode]

ive got it. the way to change your mind is to make snd a completely passive ability. rogues are supposed to be quick, after all.

No more passives.

Still does not address my concerns on dmg distribution.

I like S&D don't get me wrong but not for Assa rogues.

Remembe that is just my humble opinion. So on Blizzard's point of view they may want to remove the specc simplicity and have it on pair with savage roar?

- - - Updated - - -

I wanted S&D back.

I f**king love it.

I'm a Rogue, I'm supposed to be the fast autoattacking class, and now I am. It truly feels like a DPS steroid.

Moving on...

[Buddyshrews]

Make blindside default for assassination so we have an extra button even when it's not the current meta, and get rid of SnD, SnD is garbage, adds no fun to the gameplay and honestly nobody wanted it back for assassination.

I think it's crazy that Blindside is not a baseline ability for assassination. I actually really enjoy assassination in multi-target situations, but i needs something else in a single target situation. I'd say just make it baseline and if blizz is lazy they can make the talent add the execute component. The problem is you're not really going to take blindside in a lot of situations.