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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    But where do you draw that line? Hell... Doesn't that line already exist? A pack 5 good players can do with total ease is something 5 other players might need to use heavy crowd control on. If you make it so much more punishing that the first group needs to CC the mobs, then the second group is absolutely fecked with no hope of progressing.
    Then that is beyond the skill or gear cap of the lesser group, and they need to either stick to lower keys until they improve, or get better gear.

    Maybe that means a "good group" dont start relying on heavy CC until a +15, or higher, and the lesser group start using heavy CC as low as a +10, or a +5 or w/e.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2020-10-20 at 03:08 AM.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Then that is beyond the skill or gear cap of the lesser group, and they need to either improve or stick to lower keys until they improve, or get better gear.
    Then isn't that just exactly what we have now with everything just dialed back a few key levels?

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    Then isn't that just exactly what we have now with everything just dialed back a few key levels?
    Are you seriously suggesting that people are using traditional CC in M+ currently?

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    As others have said, explaining why is a better idea than just saying this.

    Secondly, you are looking at the cap from current prepatch standards instead of SL standards. Right now you can pull a bunch and AoE them down. In SL you'll be doing less of that and it is more for dungeon/raid content rather than solo content.
    I think, at least in my opinion, the gripe is that Blizzard not consistent with it. You see a couple of specs having no cap, then you have tanks that have the 5 target cap or "heavily reduced damage past 5 targets" which pretty much invalidates the reason of having say a Frost Mage, because the Mage is just going to be kiting 4 mobs out of 9 because the Warrior's Thunderclap does less damage past 5, which means significantly less threat.

    It also makes the gap larger for some classes to perform as well as others that are considered "meta", for example 2-3 Rogue is likely going to be meta again for M+ moving into Shadowlands. Between Tricks, 8 target AoE cap, stuns, self-healing, strong defensive cds, and group stealth there's really no reason to bring any of the 5 target AoE cap units who can't even bring a fraction of the utility that rogue can.


    Edit: I also want to say it's pretty obnoxious when it comes to old content too. It slows down the run pretty significantly when something like Whirlwind is only hitting 5 targets when you have 90 mobs chasing you in black temple.
    Last edited by Zyky; 2020-10-20 at 03:25 AM.
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  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Are you seriously suggesting that people are using traditional CC in M+ currently?
    I'm suggesting that it might be used situationally depending on the group, & dialing everything back a few key levels doesn't really change all that much besides putting a softcap on the high end & denying the lower end a chance to do the content they've been doing for 4 years at this point.

    Let's be honest, Blizzard have a nigh on impossible job with Mythic+. The top end is by far the best its ever been, while I'd argue the lower end has managed to fall even lower over the past few expansions.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    I like the timer personally as it adds an element of pressure & therefore a performance requirement to the situation. As for better AI, do you remember how excited Blizzard were for the Island Expedition AI? That said, random packs would be cool, so you couldn't go into a dungeon with absolutely everything already pre-planned each & every time.
    There are other elements from the EQ model that work really well. Like mana actually means something, so you have to be conservative / smart. A lot more buffs with CD so you need to plan more. Comparatively, imo, WoW dungeons feel like junk food. They are fun and flashy, but they lack the core RPG adventure feel. EQ I still go back and play time to time and while the game has a myriad of problems and its age shows, the dungeon gameplay I actually find superior to WoW.

    Pantheon is an MMO that seeks to replicate that feel but update it to fit modern standards. I hope it succeeds.

  7. #87
    Playstyles change.

    I am almost certain you won't even care once you get to level 60 and in a bit of gear.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by treekush View Post
    Who the hell gires these programmers...

    the programmers have nothing to do with the cap. Also the cap is fine. Learn to adapt

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Laerrus View Post
    Playstyles change.

    I am almost certain you won't even care once you get to level 60 and in a bit of gear.
    People need to remember that this is a change back to how it always was for many abilities. Not the newer specs, but most abilities had caps for a big chunk of wows history.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Laerrus View Post
    Playstyles change.

    I am almost certain you won't even care once you get to level 60 and in a bit of gear.
    Yeah, this is the real answer. SL will be developed around this change so most people probably wouldn't have even noticed if it wasn't mentioned in patch notes and the change happened at 60.

    The only real loss here is people farming legacy content, but realistically this group of people shouldn't have design decisions even remotely based around them. Sorry you need to cast your AOE button 3 times instead of once to kill everything easily for transmog.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    No, because its airy fairy nonsense with no base in reality - how on earth does an entirely fabricated fantasy abilities behavior break your immersion in that world? There is no baseline - ironically, the only "baseline" for the vast majority of these abilities is that they HAD A CAP - the cap was only removed for many abilities as recently as cata, and now it is being reintroduced.

    Like i said, i dont buy the "immersion" excuse AT ALL when it comes to game mechanics.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Im so confused - you are saying that one side of the argument cannot use a term like tactical, but you can? Yeah, like i said, you are closed minded and not actually willing to discuss this at all, you are just shouting your opinion louder and louder.
    The fact that the ability is fantasy doesn't matter, it behaves as expected. If I swing a big effing sword into a group of 10 people, it should effing hit 10 people, it shouldn't only hit 5 and not hit the other 5, even though it very clearly visually hit them, "because reasons". What's next? Am I going to hop to the left 3 feet every 10 feet I run straight "because reasons". It needs to be grounded in reality and behave how it's expected and be congruent with the rest of the presented reality. This rule feels inorganic with that, which reduces immersion. The less immersed I am, the less I care about the game.

    It's a half-assed and dumb solution.
    Last edited by Mojo03; 2020-10-20 at 04:06 AM.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozu View Post
    Yeah, this is the real answer. SL will be developed around this change so most people probably wouldn't have even noticed if it wasn't mentioned in patch notes and the change happened at 60.

    The only real loss here is people farming legacy content, but realistically this group of people shouldn't have design decisions even remotely based around them. Sorry you need to cast your AOE button 3 times instead of once to kill everything easily for transmog.
    We shouldn't have design decisions based off of an E-Sport less then .025% push for either.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    I'm perfectly fine with an AE cap, but the way they implemented it sucks. Instead of only allowing abilities to hit 5 targets, they should split damage meteor-style past 5. So:

    1 target = 100 damage
    2 targets = 100 damage each * 2 = 200 total
    3 targets = 100 damage each * 3 = 300 total
    4 targets = 100 damage each * 4 = 400 total
    5 targets = 100 damage each * 5 = 500 total
    6 targets = 83 damage each * 6 = 500 total
    7 targets = 71 damage each * 7 = 500 total
    ...
    11 targets = 45 damage each * 11 = 500 total
    ...
    27 targets = 18 damage each * 27 = 500 total

    This way you won't have mobs taking damage unevenly and tanks will be able to maintain AE threat. You still wouldn't benefit from pulling more than 5 mobs at a time, but at least it wouldn't be a huge pain in the butt.

    This isn't exactly a groundbreaking stroke of brilliance on my part. It's how AE worked in previous expansions. I believe Cataclysm did it this way and it worked perfectly fine.
    This could work. Or they could use the same formula as in good ol' WC3:

    • Up to 5 targets: 100% damage.
    • 6 to 9 targets: 70% damage.
    • 10+ targets: 40% damage.

    This way, you discourage mass AoE strategies, without making the game feel unresponsive. It's quite jarring to see your e.g. Divine Storm hit a bunch of mobs, but only a handful is actually taking damage, it looks like the GCD debacle all over again. If they wanted to nerf melee AoE, which BfA dungeons very much favoured, you could always nerf the biggest offenders individually, without screwing everyone as well. Since you know, caster AoE is also getting hard capped - and no, arcane or fire mages aren't the only casters in WoW.
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  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozu View Post
    I think it's a good change. Pulling the entire dungeon at once shouldn't be a legitimate strategy.
    Perhaps they could make the mobs dangerous and involve some amount of strategy and coordination?

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by darklogrus View Post
    We shouldn't have design decisions based off of an E-Sport less then .025% push for either.
    A significant amount of people play m+. This change doesn't just affect MDI players, nor is it only aimed at MDI players.

    Furthermore, even if that wasn't the case, games are almost always balanced around the upper echelon of players. That isn't unique to world of warcraft.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uko View Post
    Monkeys paw wish granted since you didnt mention where it has to go we made the cap 4 targeta
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  17. #97
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    I think it's bullshit too. Game would be better with no such caps.

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  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    lot of people in this thread that obv dont have beta. people are still mass pulling dungeons in SL

    Well yes, but not with double tanks and classes with less caps. Having two tanks meta is a problem whether you agree or not and i only a thing because tanks do more damage than dps with less cap punishments. Why would you take a class capped at 5 when you have others capped at 8+. People will always adjust to end tier content. It just sadly diminishes alot of DPS class value as it stands.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuja View Post
    I think it's bullshit too. Game would be better with no such caps.
    I mean the game had its highest playerbase with many of these caps in place, so although you might prefer it without the caps, and although the game was quite different back then, I see nothing confirming that the game would be "better" without the caps.

    - - - Updated - - -

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  20. #100
    Idk...some of it doesn't make sense...

    I can see an AoE cap for spells that transfer from one target to another. (chain lightning) or diminishing targets/dmg, but exploding spells make no sense. If a bomb goes off while 5 ppl are in the blast radius - they all get hit.

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