This AoE cap has got to go..

[Clone]

When something is area of effect, it should affect everything in the area.

[arkanon]

Right but you're referencing a 20-yr old iteration of that. Imagine taking all of the new stuff from the last 20 years and making a really good CC / tactical style dungeon.

Yeah im not sure why others dont understand this - a different iteration that was built around methodical and controlled clearing of packs of mobs would look nothing like it did 15 years ago. And the idea that CC was just set and forget makes me wonder who actually did some of the tougher 5mans (for the time). It required precision and timing, and communication around what was being broken when, what could be reapplied, what could cause mobs to stray, when the patrol was coming etc. Was it as hard as a +25? no. But there are 24 other levels of difficulty below a +25 to be taken into consideration.

[Aggrophobic]

As others have said, explaining why is a better idea than just saying this.

Secondly, you are looking at the cap from current prepatch standards instead of SL standards. Right now you can pull a bunch and AoE them down. In SL you'll be doing less of that and it is more for dungeon/raid content rather than solo content.

Why would you think that?

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Who the hell gires these programmers...

Yeah, it's a rather stupid change for no real reason.

[Zeek Daniels]

Who the hell gires these programmers...

You do with your subscription money as well as all the xpacs you have bought.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Yeah, it's a rather stupid change for no real reason.

Except there is a reason.. just because you don't like it doesn't mean there is no reason. People moan and bitch about how everything is an aoe fest. This is the result.

[arkanon]

Except there is a reason.. just because you don't like it doesn't mean there is no reason. People moan and bitch about how everything is an aoe fest. This is the result.

Some people (not all) seem to forget that SL has been designed with these changes in mind as well. Sure, it might be somewhat annoying for people farming old raids, but we cannot and should not design future content based on this group.

[Toybox]

Yeah im not sure why others dont understand this - a different iteration that was built around methodical and controlled clearing of packs of mobs would look nothing like it did 15 years ago. And the idea that CC was just set and forget makes me wonder who actually did some of the tougher 5mans (for the time). It required precision and timing, and communication around what was being broken when, what could be reapplied, what could cause mobs to stray, when the patrol was coming etc. Was it as hard as a +25? no. But there are 24 other levels of difficulty below a +25 to be taken into consideration.

I remember doing TBC heroics & it really wasn't that complicated. You likely had someone with a reapplyable CC like Poly/Seduce (I was the dirty 0/21/40 Warlock who complained when his CC was needed ) & someone with a sap style CC. You were left fighting 1-2 mobs, followed by the sapped mob, & finally the hard CC mob. If you wanted something like that in modern WoW, the mobs would all have to be full on bosses in their own right, otherwise what's the point of CCing in the first place? Besides, if mobs need to be CC'd on lower levels, how do you tackle them on higher levels? Unless every mob had a combat aura, but that'd be pretty boring...

You talk of precision & timing, but timing crowd controls effectively when all the mobs are actively engaged in combat & not taken out of it through a hard CC while doing a hell of a lot more dangerous things than anyone could've imagined back then is quite a bit more tasking.

[threads]

lot of people in this thread that obv dont have beta. people are still mass pulling dungeons in SL

[arkanon]

I remember doing TBC heroics & it really wasn't that complicated. You likely had someone with a reapplyable CC like Poly/Seduce (I was the dirty 0/21/40 Warlock who complained when his CC was needed ) & someone with a sap style CC. You were left fighting 1-2 mobs, followed by the sapped mob, & finally the hard CC mob. If you wanted something like that in modern WoW, the mobs would all have to be full on bosses in their own right, otherwise what's the point of CCing in the first place? Besides, if mobs need to be CC'd on lower levels, how do you tackle them on higher levels? Unless every mob had a combat aura, but that'd be pretty boring...

You talk of precision & timing, but timing crowd controls effectively when all the mobs are actively engaged in combat & not taken out of it through a hard CC while doing a hell of a lot more dangerous things than anyone could've imagined back then is quite a bit more tasking.

Yes, and a heroic then is not even close to as challenging as a +25, or even a +5. You are still looking at this entirely backwards, so there is nothing further to discuss, you are just not open minded at all.

[Mojo03]

I think it makes the combat feel clunky and reduces immersion.

The diminishing returns after 5 works better. It’s even somewhat believable since the spells wouldn’t be as potent again as many mobs.

Capping at 5 or whatever is kind of a half assed solution and just feels inorganic.

[arkanon]

I think it makes the combat feel clunky and reduces immersion.

The diminishing returns after 5 works better.

Capping at 5 or whatever is kind of a half assed solution.

In my opinion, "immersion" is used as a crutch for those without a strong argument other than "but i like it".

[Toybox]

Yes, and a heroic then is not even close to as challenging as a +25, or even a +5. You are still looking at this entirely backwards, so there is nothing further to discuss, you are just not open minded at all.

I'm willing to have my mind changed, but I'm hearing nothing more than meaningless words like tactical with nothing to back them up. What would be a "tactical dungeon pack"? How do you make it interesting so that every challenging pack needs some form of CC without every mob having a combat aura that's active if they're uncontrolled?

I've given my reasons as to why the current Legion & BfA iterations are both challenging tactically & mechanically, but I can't imagine how Blizzard or anyone else would go about designing a set of 8+ TBC style CC-reliant dungeons while not completely breaking M+ or rendering lower difficulties just as simple as they are now.

[Mojo03]

In my opinion, "immersion" is used as a crutch for those without a strong argument other than "but i like it".

Okay. It reminds you you’re playing a game, because the game is behaving inorganically, in a way that doesn’t make sense, which reduces immersion.

Happy?

[arkanon]

Okay. It reminds you you’re playing a game, because the game is behaving inorganically, in a way that doesn’t make sense, which reduces immersion.

Happy?

No, because its airy fairy nonsense with no base in reality - how on earth does an entirely fabricated fantasy abilities behavior break your immersion in that world? There is no baseline - ironically, the only "baseline" for the vast majority of these abilities is that they HAD A CAP - the cap was only removed for many abilities as recently as cata, and now it is being reintroduced.

Like i said, i dont buy the "immersion" excuse AT ALL when it comes to game mechanics.

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but I'm hearing nothing more than meaningless words like tactical ....

I've given my reasons as to why the current Legion & BfA iterations are both challenging tactically & mechanically,

Im so confused - you are saying that one side of the argument cannot use a term like tactical, but you can? Yeah, like i said, you are closed minded and not actually willing to discuss this at all, you are just shouting your opinion louder and louder.

[Toybox]

Im so confused - you are saying that one side of the argument cannot use a term like tactical, but you can? Yeah, like i said, you are closed minded and not actually willing to discuss this at all, you are just shouting your opinion louder and louder.

I knew that'd get picked up on My bad. Still, I backed mine up, which is the difference. I can tell you why it's tactically & mechanically rewarding to chain CCs well & coordinate perfectly with your team when your time is finite & there's plenty of things to play around. I'm still waiting to hear what can be tactically exciting about sapping & sheeping 2 mobs every pack, though.

If I'm coming across as closed-minded, I apologise, as it's really not my intention. I simply cannot see how you can design 8-10+ dungeons that require CC across the entirety of the M+ spectrum without resorting to boring mechanics like stackable mob auras in every pack.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I knew that'd get picked up on My bad. Still, I backed mine up, which is the difference. I can tell you why it's tactically & mechanically rewarding to chain CCs well & coordinate perfectly with your team when your time is finite & there's plenty of things to play around. I'm still waiting to hear what can be tactically exciting about sapping & sheeping 2 mobs every pack, though.

If I'm coming across as closed-minded, I apologise, as it's really not my intention. I simply cannot see how you can design 8-10+ dungeons that require CC across the entirety of the M+ spectrum without resorting to boring mechanics like stackable mob auras in every pack.

I think it would slow down the mass pulls that well Wow always had for awhile. I'm not too bothered by AOE pulls but I understand why people moaned about them for so long. People say its braindead but.......... is it really that "braindead" compared to thinking just a little to cc stuff? I dunno I think its pretty small in comparison.

[ro9ue]

I knew that'd get picked up on My bad. Still, I backed mine up, which is the difference. I can tell you why it's tactically & mechanically rewarding to chain CCs well & coordinate perfectly with your team when your time is finite & there's plenty of things to play around. I'm still waiting to hear what can be tactically exciting about sapping & sheeping 2 mobs every pack, though.

If I'm coming across as closed-minded, I apologise, as it's really not my intention. I simply cannot see how you can design 8-10+ dungeons that require CC across the entirety of the M+ spectrum without resorting to boring mechanics like stackable mob auras in every pack.

I don't like the timer. Instead I'd rather the dungeons be like M+ but no timer, and the packs be random, and the NPCs behave better AI wise so you have to be reactive constantly.

[arkanon]

I think it would slow down the mass pulls that well Wow always had for awhile. I'm not too bothered by AOE pulls but I understand why people moaned about them for so long. People say its braindead but.......... is it really that "braindead" compared to thinking just a little to cc stuff? I dunno I think its pretty small in comparison.

I think i made it VERY clear in my original comment that i do NOT think one way would be BETTER than the other, or that they should attempt to replicate a dungeon run from 14 years ago - i actually have said the opposite. The issue comes from people comparing a dungeon in TBC as it was then, to a +25 now - which is an extremely disingenuous thing to do. All i said from the beginning is that i personally would have preferred this style of play, and for the record i dont see much different between chaining stuns and chaining cc.

I do believe the push towards M+ being basically just pure AOE for the most part is a large reason the classes all changed so much - some for the better, many for the worse. One means every single class has to have "strong" aoe, and one allows greater diversity and more specialized roles to still be wanted and sought after for M+.

[Toybox]

I don't like the timer. Instead I'd rather the dungeons be like M+ but no timer, and the packs be random, and the NPCs behave better AI wise so you have to be reactive constantly.

I like the timer personally as it adds an element of pressure & therefore a performance requirement to the situation. As for better AI, do you remember how excited Blizzard were for the Island Expedition AI? That said, random packs would be cool, so you couldn't go into a dungeon with absolutely everything already pre-planned each & every time.

I think it would slow down the mass pulls that well Wow always had for awhile. I'm not too bothered by AOE pulls but I understand why people moaned about them for so long. People say its braindead but.......... is it really that "braindead" compared to thinking just a little to cc stuff? I dunno I think its pretty small in comparison.

But where do you draw that line? Hell... Doesn't that line already exist? A pack 5 good players can do with total ease is something 5 other players might need to use heavy crowd control on. If you make it so much more punishing that the first group needs to CC the mobs, then the second group is absolutely fecked with no hope of progressing.

[arkanon]

But where do you draw that line? Hell... Doesn't that line already exist? A pack 5 good players can do with total ease is something 5 other players might need to use heavy crowd control on. If you make it so much more punishing that the first group needs to CC the mobs, then the second group is absolutely fecked with no hope of progressing.

Then that is beyond the skill or gear cap of the lesser group, and they need to either stick to lower keys until they improve, or get better gear.

Maybe that means a "good group" dont start relying on heavy CC until a +15, or higher, and the lesser group start using heavy CC as low as a +10, or a +5 or w/e.