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  1. #21
    Not gonna lie...

    I was jokingly having the conversation with my folks that if Trump wins again we're moving to NZ. My brother and I can find work and get citizenship and then bring our folks over (or they can come on the retiree visa and renew it every two years).

    And I say jokingly, but only mean half-jokingly.

  2. #22
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You're describing anti-capitalist systems in your support of capitalist systems, you realize. I hope.



    That's simply counter-factual.

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/3594504?seq=1
    https://tnsr.org/2018/02/assessing-s...ance-cold-war/

    There's a reason the USSR beat the USA into space, and why there was a race to be the first to reach the moon; the USSR's economy was growing faster than the USA's in that time frame. It had a lower starting point, pre-WWII, and WWII hurt the USSR significantly more than the USA, but the USSR's economic policy overtook that deficit in the post-war decade.

    It didn't hold, but that it produced an explosion of economic growth in the USSR is simply a historical fact.
    No i simply believe in regulations serve a purpose and find that the "free market" should be free but only within a frame work that serves and protects the population, that also goes for environment. A government should also stimulate through tax cuts certain industries, that's all fine with me and doesn't impact the "free market" negatively in my opinion. I don't subscribe to the idea that capitalism is only capitalism when the market is so free that corporations have the power to almost exclusively dictate everything at also the cost of everything.

    That's a bit of an odd bench mark to use considering one could by force and without any democratic input force their nation to work a project, the other did not to simply say it was thanks due to that growth.

    Exactly it wasn't sustainable, the growth was limited and capped from the start more or less.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    You're the one who brought up social democracies in this thread. Why is it unreasonable to ask for the criteria that distinguishes a social democracy from a non-social democracy?

    The "social means of production" is the opposite of the "private means of production". The former is when the means of production is collectivized and the latter is where the means of production is controlled by individual property owners that can a make a profit. This isn't my opinion unless you're saying that every description of them is wrong.
    Exclusively replying to the bolded to not get sucked in to a pointless game of words.

    Because your first reply already high lighted that you struggle to understand what "left wing" politics actually is as a whole, for whatever reason.
    So why would i invest that much time when in your "reality" a square hole is actually round *shrug*, however you are in your right to continue to create your own definition for the sake of argument, i am simply not going to feed into it further

  3. #23
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Okay but what is the objective criteria that distinguishes a soc dem government from a non-soc dem government? So far nobody has been able to give me a criteria for social democracy other than "that's the label the majority of them use".
    Liberals for one are not social democrats.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    There’s always a lot of talk of a general strike on the left. But it’s mostly a syndicalist fantasy that “the workers” are going to rise up, which is disconnected from the fact that “the workers” are your racist uncle and jerk co-workers who you don’t like.
    Just your typical neo-liberal horseshit.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    Even with the win, i'm curious about Arden's approach to further expanding their coalition. It's a refreshing break from Leftists that are consumed with "Burning it all down" all the time.
    It's worth remembering that Labour is generally much more centre than they are left. The next few years are definitely going to be interesting, because a lot of the left leaning policies they campaigned on in 2017, they haven't really succeeded at and while they had been able to blame New Zealand First for not co-operating (The nature of the coalition meant that anything they did needed NZF's approval), they no longer have that scapegoat. It'll be interesting to see the direction they go in with a: whether or not they'll enter into a coalition of some form with the Greens (They don't need to but might anyway) and b: the next 3 years in general.

  5. #25
    Master of the Void The Dark One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Not gonna lie...

    I was jokingly having the conversation with my folks that if Trump wins again we're moving to NZ. My brother and I can find work and get citizenship and then bring our folks over (or they can come on the retiree visa and renew it every two years).

    And I say jokingly, but only mean half-jokingly.
    Whelp, you'd be more than welcome here. We love immigrants
    Fundamental civil rights are only "political" if you're trying to take them away from people.

  6. #26
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dark One View Post
    Whelp, you'd be more than welcome here. We love immigrants
    How many immigrants spend their first day in NZ, dressed as lord of the rings characters?

    If Trump wins, you guys are going to be like a mini US during WW2 and Cold War. US is going to suffer a massive brain drain and I think you guys might be one of the main destinations.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  7. #27
    It turns out actually trying to keep your citizens alive is a vote winner. Who would have thunk it.

    Back in January, the polls weren't looking great for Ardern. As in there was a good chance she was getting voted out. And then covid hit. The kiwis decided that they were going for elimination very early on and went after it hard. The end result was that New Zealand got off very, very lightly compared to most of the rest of the western world and the voters reacted accordingly.

    It is interesting to note that New Zealand has one of the most unusual electoral systems in the world, one designed to produce coalition governments. In the previous election, Ardern came to lead her party only 6 weeks prior to the election. The Labour party was in fairly bad straits and so they decided to go with someone young and photogenic and it kind of worked. They weren't as badly beaten as expected, coming in only 7% of the vote and 10 seats behind the National party, rather than what had been expected. But it was still a fair way behind and it was expected the Nationals would form the new government.

    Except Ardern did a a deal with two other minor parties - the Greens and New Zealand First, a populist, socially conservative, anti-immigrant party. Rather odd bed fellows to say the least. To get NZ First on board, she had to offer the leader the deputy PM and Foreign Minister roles.

    And the reason the Ardern was struggling in the polls early this year despite her popularity (especially overseas)? Basically not having lived up to election promises to tackle intergenerational poverty and deal with a housing crisis. There had been a promise to build 10,000 new houses of which only 260 odd had been built.

    But then covid came along, Ardern handled it extra-ordinarily well and the result was a landslide election win.

    One amusing thing I saw while watching the election was that Ardern's partner was out the front of their house with home cooked food, including fish that he had caught himself, and was offering it to neighbours and media crew. I can't see that kind of thing happening in pretty much anywhere else in the world. So, please New Zealand, don't change.

  8. #28
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    One amusing thing I saw while watching the election was that Ardern's partner was out the front of their house with home cooked food, including fish that he had caught himself, and was offering it to neighbours and media crew. I can't see that kind of thing happening in pretty much anywhere else in the world. So, please New Zealand, don't change.
    Sounds like a place to visit at least once covid has died down

  9. #29
    Brewmaster Yadryonych's Avatar
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    And protected from massive influx of immigrants by the Ocean
    Lives matter

  10. #30
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    And protected from massive influx of immigrants by the Ocean
    Have you seen the US? Every country on Trump’s travel ban, was not in the continental US.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  11. #31
    Brewmaster Yadryonych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Have you seen the US? Every country on Trump’s travel ban, was not in the continental US.
    So the Wall is there for its artistic value and not for the purpose, i guess
    Lives matter

  12. #32
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    And protected from massive influx of immigrants by the Ocean
    Good thing then that the immigrant influx is not causing the spread.


    The US travel ban is probably helping a lot though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    There’s always a lot of talk of a general strike on the left. But it’s mostly a syndicalist fantasy that “the workers” are going to rise up, which is disconnected from the fact that “the workers” are your racist uncle and jerk co-workers who you don’t like.
    Just your typical neo-liberal horseshit.

  13. #33
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    So the Wall is there for its artistic value and not for the purpose, i guess
    It’s for a real estate mogul to have advertising of his brand.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  14. #34
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    So the Wall is there for its artistic value and not for the purpose, i guess
    No but when your car is breaking down due to engine issues you don't invest in new tires first and foremost.

  15. #35
    Brewmaster Yadryonych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    No but when your car is breaking down due to engine issues you don't invest in new tires first and foremost.
    But when a disaster broke your door and your roof, the new door comes before the new roof
    Lives matter

  16. #36
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    But when a disaster broke your door and your roof, the new door comes before the new roof
    Really you would fix your door before you would your roof? Not the best example to use in this situation.

    Regardless giving you the benefit of the doubt here by not assuming you are being purposely obtuse, the immigration issue is fairly complicated due to there being multi facets attached to it, so much that anyone who sells you that as a solution is a merely a wall is flat out calling you an idiot, especially if all other aspects remain completely untouched.

    In any case i am out of this discussion unless it moves back on to NZ politics to prevent derailment.

  17. #37
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    So the Wall is there for its artistic value and not for the purpose, i guess
    I’m not sure whether you meant that sarcastically or not but yes, trump’s wall was never about stopping illegal immigration.

    It was entirely a campaign promise he made to dupe morons who care about the non-issue of illegal immigration in the United States into voting for him.

    Why do you think that, after four years of being president and holding a supermajority in Congress for two of those years that it hasn’t been built?

    Because trump doesn’t actually care about a wall, or immigration, any more than threatening people with the prospect of scary brown people will get them to vote for him.

    America has lots of problems. Those problems do not arise in any way, shape or form from a tiny sliver population of wholly economically and politically powerless immigrants. As such... yeah, America should really look into emulating some of New Zealand’s policies, resting assured that their differences in border geography won’t amount to... anything.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  18. #38
    I don't understand why you'd kick out a government that roflstomped COVID, whether it's left-leaning or right-leaning.
    If you are particularly bold, you could use a Shiny Ditto. Do keep in mind though, this will infuriate your opponents due to Ditto's beauty. Please do not use Shiny Ditto. You have been warned.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    And protected from massive influx of immigrants by the Ocean
    Because planes don't exist, right?

    We're protected from a massive influx of immigrants because we closed the borders almost immediately.

  20. #40
    Brewmaster Yadryonych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waniou View Post
    Because planes don't exist, right?
    Oh yeah why do all these people from the third world have to jump the wall or row in inflatable boats across the Mediterranean? They should just be smart like you and take a plane, right?
    Lives matter

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