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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2 View Post
    The Horde are the bad guys. Kicking out a single individual doesn't absolve the others of crimes.
    so if we are playing this game.
    when are we going to be punish the night elves and humans?
    the report systems sucks and the mods are bias.

  2. #242
    I want the Horde to be led by a single charismatic leader that projects a sense of cunning, martial skill, and honor. Pre-World Shaman Thrall had that. Garrosh had it for Cata even if they had built in some good literary flaws in his personality. Vol'jin had it. There was a great storytelling opportunity for Sylvanas in the "step out of the shadows and lead" arc, but they scuttled that in a big damn hurry and her last, best moment as Warchief ended up really being her first, rallying the Horde at Vol'jin's funeral.

    But also above that, a sense of... I don't want to politicize it, but 'nationalism' might be the best word. Or independence, or pride. What have you. Even Vol'jin, who stood in the center of a conquered city with the Alliance beside and surrounding him, said he spoke for the Horde. When the BFA cinematic crowd cheered for Sylvanas, it's because at the time she roared "for the Horde" it sounded like she actually meant that shit. I mean, it's Varian's big kiss off that he says "for the Alliance" (a phrase that isn't and never has been "a thing"), but it's apparently a moral fault for a leader of the Horde to actually be kinda about the Horde.

    And it's that very failing that's why the Horde player base has and will continue to reject Baine (even though clearly from the Shadowlands plot design and BFA arc Blizz kinda intended to put him there), and why, unfortunately, they'd probably never accept Lor'themar because he was ready to leave over Garrosh's insanity.

    Coming out of Shadowlands, by whatever subplot or whatever time jump, the Horde needs a Warchief again. Don't give me any of that shit that "it's not suitable in a time of peace" because... fuck it, listen to Varian's letter to Anduin from the Legion cinematic again. "to preserve (peace) you must be willing to fight".

    Maybe they'll work their way back to Thrall because of the statute. I thought and still think it would be easy to build Rexxar up for (reluctantly) taking on that role, but they didn't really write anything for him after the early parts of the war campaign.

    I'm not sure who they could elevate into that role but it would take some writing and some doing. Could even salvage Baine if they hardened his edge a little, gave him at least a trust-but-verify hesitation about the Alliance. Could maybe build Rok'han? Could still bring in Rexxar (gateway to Horde ogres, too)? Garona, I guess?

    But the Horde needs a strong, credible leader to whom the Horde is their priority, even in the mosaic of a relatively peaceful Azeroth. You can't keep the faction system and write one faction as de facto vassal state to the other and not have it be dysfunctional and offputting to half your audience. They seemed to understand that up until MOP.

  3. #243
    The only way for the Horde to get a good leader is for the Horde to kill those who do idiot things.
    And that also means new blood has to be groomed for the task. But right now the only ones "available" are those lore NPCs who have been around forever.

    They didn't get rid of Garrosh and that cost them dearly. If anything it is time for new blood to rise through the ranks and earn the throne.
    But unfortunately that would require Blizzard to actually write a decent story and add new characters that grow and evolve.
    Which they obviously haven't done. So the Horde is stuck with pathetic leadership that leads to disastrous consequences like the council.
    And that isn't likely to change any time soon because for whatever reason the mostly "edgy" characters happen to be or used to be in the Horde.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2020-10-27 at 03:56 PM.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    I like the current leaders. Work towards peace, makes sense.
    Basically this. Fighting for the sake of fighting because you are an “ugly monster” is 90s Saturday morning cartoon BS.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormdash View Post
    Listen to Varian's letter to Anduin from the Legion cinematic again. "to preserve (peace) you must be willing to fight".
    Too bad that Varian's son-in-law and quasi-Warchief Baine doesn't give a !@#$ about fighting. Certainly not against the Alliance, at any rate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Too bad that Varian's son-in-law and quasi-Warchief Baine doesn't give a !@#$ about fighting. Certainly not against the Alliance, at any rate.
    I think you could write him out of it. I got no problem if they put him on the same "i am wary of you but can work with you" footing that Thrall and Vol'jin both held, but they have to get him out of his first, middle, and last answer to every question being "what does the Alliance think we should do?" which is basically all that's left of him.

  7. #247
    I wouldn't care much about Thrall dying and having AU Grommash turn out to have survived Yrel's light cult so we rescue him and make him a part of the council. Thing is though if Thrall were to die I'm pretty sure his wife would be next in line. So I'd rather just keep Thrall alive.

    You mention underdeveloped and underused but I don't even recognize some of the characters you listed. Sark Ragetotem and Jin'do. Who are they and why are they important and deserving to represent the Horde?

    Rastakhan I'm pretty sure is dead.

    Kaelthas Sunstrider leading the blood elves? Seriously? After everything he's done the Horde is just going to accept him to represent the Horde as part of it's council? Yeah, I don't think so. Lorthemar Theron is perfectly fine.

    Elisande I thought was already on the council.

    Sylvanas coming back to lead the Forsaken after she calls us all nothing and...well...forsaking her own people? No that would be stupid, time for a new undead leader. One who isn't power hungry and actually cares about the Forsaken and the Horde.
    I'd buy that for a dollar.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubenwolf View Post
    I wouldn't care much about Thrall dying and having AU Grommash turn out to have survived Yrel's light cult so we rescue him and make him a part of the council. Thing is though if Thrall were to die I'm pretty sure his wife would be next in line. So I'd rather just keep Thrall alive.

    You mention underdeveloped and underused but I don't even recognize some of the characters you listed. Sark Ragetotem and Jin'do. Who are they and why are they important and deserving to represent the Horde?

    Rastakhan I'm pretty sure is dead.

    Kaelthas Sunstrider leading the blood elves? Seriously? After everything he's done the Horde is just going to accept him to represent the Horde as part of it's council? Yeah, I don't think so. Lorthemar Theron is perfectly fine.

    Elisande I thought was already on the council.

    Sylvanas coming back to lead the Forsaken after she calls us all nothing and...well...forsaking her own people? No that would be stupid, time for a new undead leader. One who isn't power hungry and actually cares about the Forsaken and the Horde.
    AU grom would be old AF, though. He'd be like Saurfang if he survived. Like 30 years passed on AU Draenor. Not sure that's all that inspiring, besides, he low-key got made a bitch during the course of WOD. If the answer is from AU Draenor almost think you'd need some OC... like AU Grom had a son, but it wouldn't have been an AU Garrosh because different circumstances, etc? Build that dude up? Or an alt-Thrall, same reasoning? Not sure either of those play.

    I still favor Rexxar, but it would never have made more sense than it would have in BFA and they came nowhere near it.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    Blizzard thought they would be better suited as raid bosses, while the amount of powerful Alliance characters continue to pile up :/
    Don't let alliance people hear you. On the forums, horde is considered to be favored.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    Don't let alliance people hear you. On the forums, horde is considered to be favored.
    I have a younger sister who was spoiled like crazy growing up, no chores, never hit, favored during divorce, etc... I've been told by mutual friends how she goes on about how she was treated horribly but never makes mention of how I was treated to them.

    So seeing Alliance players act like this is nothing new to me. In Cataclysm, they gave some zones to the Horde, because up until that point Alliance had more... and Alliance players weren't happy with that lol.

    When you look at World of Warcraft and remove say the Horde, nothing really changes. Most of the characters are still there, majority of the plots are unchanged and so on. World of Warcraft can easily work as a single faction game. But if you removed the Alliance instead, the game is missing so many characters, so many stories can't happen all of a sudden. And then you realize that they throw a shit fit anytime a Horde character is in the spotlight and how childish it is.

  11. #251
    Personally I always thought that Sunwalker Tauren who carries his kids around would be a solid Tauren leader.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Miseration View Post
    You said it. RIP CAIRNE
    Baine should have died in his place
    Out of curiosity, what did Cairne do that makes him so noteworthy? I remember him struggling against the centaur, guiding Thrall to the "oracle," helping save Grom, growing cripplingly depressed at the loss of Baine when centaur took him, helping assault Daelin, and challenging Garrosh to a mak'gora that got him killed. Did he really do anything else of note?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsOurEric View Post
    Personally I always thought that Sunwalker Tauren who carries his kids around would be a solid Tauren leader.
    Sunwalker Dezco? He's a decent candidate, though if we're going with Sunwalkers, I think Aponi makes more sense.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    Undead - sylvanas can come back.

    Then the horde would be fixed.
    And that's where you lost your last drop of credibility

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsOurEric View Post
    Personally I always thought that Sunwalker Tauren who carries his kids around would be a solid Tauren leader.
    You mean the one that got his kid squashed because he was using it as baby armor?

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    Our current cast of leading characters is truly pathetic. They are underdeveloped, underused, underpowered and lack any sorts of investment that could draw a horde player emotionally to them. To fix these issues it is needed that the horde council gets replaced with characters that could actually stand off against the big alliance super heroes.
    This should be good....

    Orcs - kill Thrall. Bring back AU Grommash
    He's either dead or converted.

    Trolls - Rastakhan and Jindo the Breaker
    Both are dead.

    Tauren - Sark Ragetotem
    Alive, and almost unremarkable. I mean, he's the tauren warrior trainer, and there really doesn't appear to be much else on him. I'd have to do a little more digging but nothing is coming up.

    Blood elves - kael’thas Sunstrider
    Dead. And why do you think someone like Kael'thas is a good leader when he is quite possibly the most duplicitous leader in the game's history, with the exception of Sylvanas herself? Even Gallywix doesn't come close, here.

    Nightborne - Grand magistrix Elisande
    Dead. And besides that, there's no way she would align herself or the nightborne under her to fight with a bunch of savages. The only reason the Nightborne are in the Horde at all is because of Thalyssra, and because she made the mistake of thinking Tyrande Whisperwind was somehow the leader of the Alliance. well, other than the obvious, that the writers wanted it to be that way.

    Undead - sylvanas can come back.
    She doesn't want to come back. And even if she did, she admitted to all of them her contempt for them. An "I'm sorry" kind of undercuts the point of having a maniacal Horde, as you're suggesting, here. So, no she can't come back, and no, she doesn't want to come back.

    Then the horde would be fixed.
    I don't think so. There would be way too much infighting here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsOurEric View Post
    Personally I always thought that Sunwalker Tauren who carries his kids around would be a solid Tauren leader.
    That kind of undercuts the idea of creating a warmongering, maniacal Horde. Look at his choices. All of them with the exception of a Tauren who is more or less unremarkable, are duplicitous, warmongering, or too high class to deal with lowlies, of which the non-elven ones mostly fit the bill for. It's pretty clear, the Horde should, in his opinion, be a murderous, hateful, brooding group of misfits that he somehow thinks would cooperate with one another without ever dealing with mutinies, coup d'etats, or assassinations. The premise of the Horde is one that has to fight the current in order to survive. The cultural and practical differences between the Horde races are far greater than the Alliance has. You put these maniacs in control, and the current will simply be too strong.
    "The fatal flaw of every plan, no matter how well planned, is the assumption that you know more than your enemy."

  16. #256
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    suggesting Sylvannas makes me question if u trolling or serious
    I do agree i hate idea of horde council, also Baine is sh8t i'd take him as warchief (beta warchief -.-) than a council, but i disagree with every single name u mentioned
    For start I hate idea of bring dead ppl, which is ur entire list
    For 2nd I hate idea of council itself, horde = warchief, alliance should have council system not horde
    And last, Horde right now is at its weakest since its creation, we are a glorified mini faction not actual faction, horde are now on par (in term of power and influence) as factions like Argent Crusade and Cenarion Circle, heck I'd rank Cenarion Circle higher than horde sadly, horde right now can't even look on same view as alliance, we are alliance b8tch and they can do whatever they want
    Hence I wish a NEW character like Garrosh to rise, and unlike Garrosh doesn't turn his hitler mode on and accept all horde races equally, even the questionable undead, just think of Cata horde as my best ideal horde with best warchief

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Out of curiosity, what did Cairne do that makes him so noteworthy? I remember him struggling against the centaur, guiding Thrall to the "oracle," helping save Grom, growing cripplingly depressed at the loss of Baine when centaur took him, helping assault Daelin, and challenging Garrosh to a mak'gora that got him killed. Did he really do anything else of note?
    being 2nd in command to wc3 Thrall and helping founding the horde is enough for us, for most us old warcraft veterans we have a very soft spot for anything from wc3, at least things that stayed as they are in wc3, not that abomination of character Sylvannas/Jaina became (also they fixing Jaina... again, they keep ping pong her a lot)
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  17. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Out of curiosity, what did Cairne do that makes him so noteworthy? I remember him struggling against the centaur, guiding Thrall to the "oracle," helping save Grom, growing cripplingly depressed at the loss of Baine when centaur took him, helping assault Daelin, and challenging Garrosh to a mak'gora that got him killed. Did he really do anything else of note?
    Not being an Alliance &$!#@ was good enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    being 2nd in command to wc3 Thrall and helping founding the horde is enough for us, for most us old warcraft veterans we have a very soft spot for anything from wc3, at least things that stayed as they are in wc3, not that abomination of character Sylvannas/Jaina became (also they fixing Jaina... again, they keep ping pong her a lot)
    I definitely get the WC3 love, since I was a very active member on an old WC3 fansite back before the game even launched. I definitely think the game revolutionized the way the franchise handled its characters, giving them a lot more depth and motivation within the gameplay itself. It still bothers me that Malfurion randomly got a name change in TFT and isn't called Furion anymore.

    With respect to Cairne specifically, though, I thought Grom was 2nd in command to Thrall. Cairne was an ally that helped Thrall to repay a debt, but even in TFT, they had very little communication between them to the point that Rexxar was the go between. I thought Cairne was a fine character, but I mostly remember him as the bull that constantly complained about his old bones aching and suffering from crippling depression at the loss of his son. If he hadn't challenged Garrosh to mak'gora, I really don't think his story would've diverged from Baine's that much (particularly after working alongside Jaina to save Grom and again to stop her father).

    Maybe this is wandering too far off topic and deserves its own thread, though.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    I'd say that Blizzard wants to cater to both A and B types, but their writing is so clumsy and preachy that they end up pleasing neither, hence the impression of catering to the hypothetical C type. Which in the end pleases no one except maybe Sylvanas or Anduin shills.
    Going from selfless saviors of Azeroth to genocidal lackwits and back is indeed extremely tiring, especially after Legion which built up our characters as people who 1) takes shit from close to no one and 2) are totally willing to work with the blue boys (and in the case of some classes, 3) have no interest in the factions at all). But then here comes BFA and we're all made the bitch queen's good little mindslaves until the rebellion switch is flipped once again.

    Vanilla was a time where the Horde weren't really good guys but hardly evil either, same for the Alliance. Wrath too continued that trend. It all started going really, really downhill with Warchief daddy issues in Cata and Cairne's offscreen death.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Out of curiosity, what did Cairne do that makes him so noteworthy? I remember him struggling against the centaur, guiding Thrall to the "oracle," helping save Grom, growing cripplingly depressed at the loss of Baine when centaur took him, helping assault Daelin, and challenging Garrosh to a mak'gora that got him killed. Did he really do anything else of note?

    Very little. to be honest.

    He had virtually no story development all through the WoW game after Orgrimmar was founded. this also means that there was nothing to harm his initial image in the lore as well...

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