Something wrong with the "Pikaboo's opener".

[Fantazma]

Hi, I saw the video below just today and I would like to see your opinions.
Is it possible to ignore "Rupture" and "Slice and Dice" in the opener?



Pikaboo is considered one of the best PVP rogues in the world (maybe the top-1) but I really found this tip he gave us in the video really strange.

Another thing: I'm particularly using Nightstalker instead of Subterfuge and the result is much better.
(p.s: I would like to have the trinket he uses. Look great.)

Anyway...
My talents are:

Premeditation
Nightstalker
marked for Death
Sooting Darkness
Prey on the Weak
Dark Shadow
Master the Shadows

My "general" (one shot) opener is:

Stealth
Cold Blood
Shadow Blades
Shadowstrike (25% damage in stealth + 100% buff from Dagger on the Dark + Cold Blood buff)
Shadow Dance (12% Nightstalker damage + 30% Dark Shadows)
Cheap Shot
Symbols of Death
Rupture
Shadowstrike
Shadowstrike
Kidney shot
Reaping Flames (Azerite)
Backstab
Slice and Dice (to continue with 50% + attack speed)
Marked for Death
Death from Above (yes I like that)

It seems like a lot but it is possible to run the opener above in about 10 - 12 seconds with the target stunned 90% of the time.
I really like this opener. The first Shadowstrike sometimes hit 4k+.
This combination of talents and skills generates the greatest amount of burst damage possible.

Some people will criticize me for starting with Shadowstrike instead of SAP + Cheap Shot but I don't care. 90% of the guys I attack with this opener (and die with it) don't care about it either.

EDIT: I forgot to say that I only play in random BGs and my focus is to attack someone alone taking care of a flag. My opener is not 100% guaranteed in situations such as ranked arena with enemies exactly prepared to be attacked by a rogue and messing up all my opener with all possible counter attacks ...!
But I really recommend you to try this opener on the world PVP or random BGs and let this thing stretched out between your ears called: SMILE!

[Cracked]

This kind of thing would maybe work in random bgs or very low MMR arena, but will likely be very bad in 1500+ arena. Yes as a sub rogue you can deal damage, but your main role is control and providing windows of opportunity for both you and your teammates.

This opener is just blowing a load and trying to kill ASAP with you alone. Sub shines when working with others, not when it’s just trying to single handily kill someone. Any semi decent player will read what you’re doing from a mile a way and you’ll be punished for it.

Pretty much this. The opener is designed around having a bursty partner, this is your "go", in that if you get this setup perfectly with cc, you are most likely going to win, because your opponents fucked up. Your role in this setup is controlling the kill target with stuns while your team sets up their position and damage.

[Fantazma]

This kind of thing would maybe work in random bgs or very low MMR arena, but will likely be very bad in 1500+ arena. Yes as a sub rogue you can deal damage, but your main role is control and providing windows of opportunity for both you and your teammates.

This opener is just blowing a load and trying to kill ASAP with you alone. Sub shines when working with others, not when it’s just trying to single handily kill someone. Any semi decent player will read what you’re doing from a mile a way and you’ll be punished for it.

Oh, true.
I forgot to say that I only play in random BGs and my focus is to attack someone alone taking care of a flag. My opener is not 100% guaranteed in situations such as ranked arena with enemies exactly prepared to be attacked by a rogue and messing up all my opener with all possible counter attacks ...!
But I really recommend you to try this opener on the world PVP or random BGs and let this thing stretched out between your ears called: SMILE!

[pokies]

Oh, true.
I forgot to say that I only play in random BGs and my focus is to attack someone alone taking care of a flag. My opener is not 100% guaranteed in situations such as ranked arena with enemies exactly prepared to be attacked by a rogue and messing up all my opener with all possible counter attacks ...!
But I really recommend you to try this opener on the world PVP or random BGs and let this thing stretched out between your ears called: SMILE!

Thanks for sharing buddy! I will have a go with this opener today.

[Naiattavain]

so what was the point of breaking sub down after wod spec still is crap to choose for to win.. blizzard is retarded. rip rektful.

Infracted.

[shoegazing]

Stealth
Cold Blood
Shadow Blades
Shadowstrike (25% damage in stealth + 100% buff from Dagger on the Dark + Cold Blood buff)

The reason this is garbage is that anyone with a pulse is going to peel you while you are waiting on GCD due to opening with Shadowstrike first.

Warlock with use Deathcoil at this point. Paladin will use HoJ. Priest will use Fear. Rogue will Vanish/Dance Cheap Shot or Blind. Warrior will Fear or Storm Bolt or Disarm. Etc etc etc

Your opener only works when your opponent is as bad at the game as you are.

Maybe this works for killing bots or people who are AFK but you shouldn't try this against anyone who is actually confident in PvP.

[Kaver]

The reason this is garbage is that anyone with a pulse is going to peel you while you are waiting on GCD due to opening with Shadowstrike first.

Warlock with use Deathcoil at this point. Paladin will use HoJ. Priest will use Fear. Rogue will Vanish/Dance Cheap Shot or Blind. Warrior will Fear or Storm Bolt or Disarm. Etc etc etc

Your opener only works when your opponent is so bad at the game that you are giving them a whole second for free and they can't respond in that time.

Maybe this works for killing bots or people who are AFK but you shouldn't try this against anyone who is actually confident in PvP.

Here. I fixed your post so it complies with the common courtesy shown when communicating with other people:

The reason this is not optimal is that more experience players are going to peel you while you are waiting on GCD due to opening with Shadowstrike first.

Warlock with use Deathcoil at this point. Paladin will use HoJ. Priest will use Fear. Rogue will Vanish/Dance Cheap Shot or Blind. Warrior will Fear or Storm Bolt or Disarm.

Your opener only works when your opponent is less experienced at the game that you are giving them a whole second for free and they can't respond in that time.

Maybe this works for killing less experienced players but you shouldn't try this against anyone who is actually confident in PvP.

You can get your point across without being rude. The OP even expressed earlier that his focus is random BGs which is usually a place for less experienced players. It works for him and he is having fun using it. Trying to somehow bring him down for absolutely no good reason is just a bad move.

[Kaver]

The thing is, OP DIDN'T just ask about his own fun, and if it WAS for his own fun, he wouldn't need to question it because optimal play isn't a worry. He specifically questioned a high ranking PvPers decisions and wanted to ask if his would work in place of that.

It doesn't, and it is pretty obvious why - Because OP doesn't play at high ranking PvP. There's no reason to question a higher ranked PvPer if you've never done high ranking PvP.

He is just curious and he is not harming anyone. Maybe the question is not extremely relevant to his situation but so what. Making rude responses is completely unnecessary. In my opinion.

[Kaver]

And in my opinion, a rude response gets a point across much faster than a nice response.

This might be true. But is your opinion then also that it's fine to be rude in order to get your point across faster?

[ZazuuPriest]

I dont PvP at a high level but heres my terrible opener and also I am questioning the top rogue pvper in the world. BTW i only do random BGs because i cant get kills in ranked

A thread

[shoegazing]

I dont PvP at a high level but heres my terrible opener and also I am questioning the top rogue pvper in the world. BTW i only do random BGs because i cant get kills in ranked

A thread

Yes, exactly.

OP is bad at Rogue, posted a bad opener and recommended it to other players, and argued that Pikaboo's opener is wrong lol.

This thread is bad and spreading bad info to other players who don't know the difference makes this forum worse.

ALSO, I want to clarify that this isn't about "high rank PvP". You don't need to be 3k rated like Pikaboo to run into enemies that know how to stop OPs stupid, brainless opener. If OP tried this at 1600 rating they would get the same result. In random BGs they should also run into a large enough % of players that know how to stop this.

It's not just this one thread either. Any time OP posts anything at all on this forum, in any thread, they spread misinformation. They are a constant source of bad posts, bad threads, bad gameplay advice, and inaccurate information.

[drbatman]

Your critisizing the BEST rogue right now

with a strat for solo que BGs?

wtf, and you call your 10-12 sec opener a 'one-shot'

woooooooooooooooooooow

[ymirsson]

For once, i agree with shoegazing.

[shoegazing]

For once, i agree with shoegazing.

The heavens opened up and what is that sound? Lo and behold, it is a choir of angels singing.

[Critical92]

The real question is Dark vs ES. Darks tooltip is misleading because it is not real 30% but 15% because baseline dance already has 15% baked in. I think the double charge + higher cdr fits better because you can also use 1 dance as a defensive or start a new setup when sod gets ready again. With higher dance uptime soothing would heal more. With a 100% setup dark ofcourse yields higher burst potential, but will you always achieve that as a regular player?

[ymirsson]

The heavens opened up and what is that sound? Lo and behold, it is a choir of angels singing.

I'm absolutely on board with telling people with stupid ideas that their ideas are stupid.

[Fantazma]

Your opener only works when your opponent is as bad at the game as you are.

My English is not perfect and I apologize for any mistakes.

Before proceeding ... did you read the sentence where I say that I only play BG pugs? pug-BGs is a situation where there is no top-player waiting ecxatly for a rogue and he will probably already have a finger ready to counter any non-stun skill I use. So I said that my opener is not guaranteed in PVPs with better rankings.
That said come on:

I kill an average of 90% (yes, 90%) of the players that I attack just using the opener and talents that I described in the topic. I wouldn't use this opener if it weren't as effective and always got me into trouble. I do this because I LIKE the initial teleportation. yes I like. Thanks Blizzard, I love teleports in combat. The teleport launches my rogue like an arrow at the target's back. In the past (in wod?) I used a talent (I forgot the name) that did the cheap shot or ambush teleport with 35 - 40 yards away. So at that time I started with Cheap Shot ... after all I love to start the fight by teleporting behind the enemy. If God allowed me to be an xman I would ask to be NightCrawler.
I know that many rogues use sap + cheap shot ... but really? ... I hate to start like this. I find the sap boring. I don't use it on my delicious PVP within the BG pugs. I don't like sap. I don't see fun in sap ... and now ... I reveal a secret to you ..:
I only play for fun.

Forgive me if I was rude.

- - - Updated - - -

For others who were horrified by a mediocre PVP player criticizing the omnipresent God called Pikaboo ... lets go:

I was not criticizing him, much less saying that I am better than him. If you read my topic carefully I am surprised that it does not use Rupture and S&D. The proof is that I put the question in the form of a question. Review there.
Also, I believe that in the pre-patch Rupture and S&D were the best thing that came to the rogue sub and he doesn't use it. It's great to be incredible, isn't it ?! He doesn't need these skills. Good.

Finally, I apologize to everyone who took offense at my topic.
I am still in doubt if I still need to learn a lot of English to express myself better ... or if you are just very spoiled.
I hope to be the first alternative.
Good night.

[ohwell]

Here. I fixed your post so it complies with the common courtesy shown when communicating with other people:



You can get your point across without being rude. The OP even expressed earlier that his focus is random BGs which is usually a place for less experienced players. It works for him and he is having fun using it. Trying to somehow bring him down for absolutely no good reason is just a bad move.

You can be experienced and terrible. I'll be the first to admit I have tried for years to use a mouse to move and just can't and as such movement is one of my flaws that will never change in terms of pvp, but I make up for it in other ways and not everyone is as lucky. People can be bad. There is nothing rude or wrong about saying people are bad. I am bad at mouse movement. Stop this nonsense that stating facts are bad or rude....this is why I loved the first French Canadian woman I met and as a gay man I was like OMG I'd marry her. She said what was on her mind and said it matter of factly. It wasn't meant to be rude. It was stating what we all knew was obvious.

[shoegazing]

The disconnect / disagreement here is that you insist only a "top player" can counter your opener. No, that's not true. Anybody with even a basic understanding of what to do in PvP should be able to counter it.

Great that you are having fun, but it's objectively not a good opener.

BTW the reason Pika skips SnD is that he gets it automatically with the Premeditation talent. The reason he skips Rupture is that there is no % modifier to damage from having Rupture applied any longer (this was not the case in past expansions). His goals in the opener are simple: 1. seamless stunlock with NO GAPS, and 2. the most burst damage possible while doing that. Personally I liked it way better when SnD and Rupture factored into the optimal Subtlety PvP opener, but this is the way Blizzard designed the spec now. This is part of the reason the so-called "unpruning" is such a complete joke to anybody with a brain. They unpruned some abilities but they didn't bring back the actual interactions that made them fit into your gameplay.

I'm glad that you brought up Cloak and Dagger. That was a great talent in casual play. I personally had a lot of fun running around with Cloak and Dagger when I was just doing quests or w/e even though it wasn't a good choice for competitive play.

For those who don't know, here's an example of what that build was like:



Half of the problem with Legion/post-Legion design is that instead of the teleport playstyle being a talent option that was there, they tried to bake in right into the spec with Shadowstrike which ended up being a balancing nightmare, had to be scaled way back, and required concessions in other places (the other problem, of course is Dance uptime which reduced Dance burst, weakened our PvP niche, and required pruning the variety and depth from our CC toolkit).

Anyway, from a design perspective I think it's just fascinating that the Cloak and Dagger talent was basically their vision for what Subtlety Rogue should be and yet they ended up delivering a far, far worse version of it. It doesn't work with Cheap Shot, has reduced range, etc. They would have been better off leaving it as a talent option best suited for open world content.

[Fantazma]

The disconnect / disagreement here is that you insist only a "top player" can counter your opener. No, that's not true. Anybody with even a basic understanding of what to do in PvP should be able to counter it.

Shoe, (can I call u Shoe?) yes, is that "Cloak and dagger". Jesus, How dare they take that away from me? Yes, before I used this talent to teleport using cheap shot. When that talent was gone I realized that I had a huge laziness to follow the target and apply sap - cheap shot (or just cheap shot). I found it boring. I got hooked on Cloak and Dagger. (Did I already tell you that my main goal in the game is to do what I love?) ... and then in legion (missing the C&D teleport) I tried doing the Shadowstrike > Cheap shot.
At first (just like you) I was sure it wasn't going to work. The time between Shadowstrike and Cheap Shot is (more or less) 0.5 seconds ... and I knew that any average player would break me in this time window.
HOWEVER .... to my surprise the vast majority do not react in this 0.5 second and my opener works. I can apply the entire opener as I described in the topic in 10-12 seconds and the target remains stunned most of the time.
Of course ... I repeat that this occurs in the world PVP and in BGs pugs that (luckily) I am playing against average or bad players in the PVP.
For me to have fun I don't demand that they are good after all ... nor am I.

I hope I managed to explain myself better.