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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Sorry, are you saying you DON'T want to fight stronger monsters as you get stronger?
    No I'm not saying that.

    I'm saying I don't want everything to scale with me. Like it used to be.

    A furbolg in Ashenvale who is level 22 should always be level 22, and when I outlevel him so much that he is worth no experience anymore, I should be required to move on to another zone. The furbolg shouldn't level up with me. I go to the next zone, and there are stronger monsters. Those monsters also are always at the same level.

    Therefore the reason to level up is to become strong enough to defeat those stronger monsters.

    If I am level 30 and there is a monster that is level 50, I can't defeat that monster at level 30. I can try, but it will demolish me. So now I have a reason to go level up until I feel that I might have a chance.

    Like we used to have red quests in our questlog, but we knew we'd never be able to complete them at our current level. So we had something to look forward to. As we'd be growing in level we'd be seeing that quest go from red to orange and go "maybe now I can do that quest".

    Instead of having everything scale. It makes leveling up unrewarding, because a level up matters less. People always complained about the lack of rewards in the form of abilities when you level up, because there were so many levels and so few rewards. But what people often seem to overlook is that the level up itself can be a reward, because gaining one level can make a significant difference in terms of your power level which can even enable you to do certain content.

    If the people on your server for example suggest that you at least be level 15 before you attempt deadmines as a dps, then that becomes something to look forward to in and of itself "I just dinged level 15, maybe I'll find a group for this content now", or even "I feel confident in tackling this content now that I am this level".

    That is all gone with level scaling. Level just doesn't matter. The only levels that matter are level 10 and level 50, because 10 is when you unlock access to everything, and level 50 is the level you need for the endgame. Actually playing between levels 1-10 feels more satisfying than the entire 10-50 bracket. Even more so when you play in classic.

    The reward for gaining a level shouldn't be that every mob in your area also gains a level.
    Last edited by hedren; 2020-10-21 at 10:02 PM.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by hedren View Post
    They should just set us back to level 1 then and make the new max level 10. If level 1-50 is so irrelevant. Or just get rid of levels.
    I mean, that attitude basically amounts to "well if it isn't absolutely perfect to my liking right off the bat they may as well not even do it", which is just rather silly.

    The level squish is a massive endeavour just from a mathmatical standpoint. Expecting the whole system to line up perfectly from the get go, while they are still trying to get Shadowlands ready to launch is pretty much setting yourself up for disappointment.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by hedren View Post
    No I'm not saying that.

    I'm saying I don't want everything to scale with me. Like it used to be.

    A furbolg in Ashenvale who is level 22 should always be level 22, and when I outlevel him so much that he is worth no experience anymore, I should be required to move on to another zone.
    That's silly, though, because then you force everyone into a fixed progression path; or, at the very least, strongly limit where they can go at what time. What about all the people who don't like going to some zones? What about zones in unfortunate brackets that nobody goes to because they don't match the progression curve? And so on.

    There is a REASON they introduced global scaling: it solves more problems than it creates, and pleases more people than it pisses off.

    If you don't enjoy it, that's unfortunate. There's other things I don't enjoy that they've put in, too. But I'm not alone in the world, and enough other people like something I dislike for me to just, well, have to suck it up or move on to another game.

  4. #64
    Wow, I didn't read the whole thread but a LOT of people on at least the first page completely missed the OP's point/argument. Yes, a level 30 player is stronger when facing off against a level 10 player (pvp), and the level 30 player is stronger against a level 20 mob then a level 10 player is against a level 20 mob.

    BUT

    A level 10 is much stronger than a level 30 when facing scaling content, so dungeons AND outdoors content that is being scaled to your level, which is all leveling content.
    And the 10 isn't just slightly stronger, they are significantly stronger. Took a level 10 tank into a dungeon and I could solo 3-4 elites at once (with just basic BoA gear, nothing special or game breaking) in record breaking time/dps, only bosses are overly challenging. Go ahead, try that at 30 or 40 and let me know how it goes. Even if you could do it, it would take 2x or 3x as long.

    So the OP's point is valid. The scaling is out of whack. As you level and gain more abilities/talents/stats you actually get weaker versus equal level mobs. It is just like people leveling in old BfA and losing power as they leveled up from 110-120, with the worst being levels 117-119.

    My level 10-15's alt can defeat most normal mobs in 1 ability, 2 max. But by level 30 they're up to about 7-8 hits/abilities per normal mob kill.

    Now, is all this a big deal? Not really since pvp has brackets and pve leveling is whatever. But you shouldn't feel yourself getting weaker as you level up. Sure, you might spike a little RIGHT when you get a new or improved ability/talent, but you're not going to be stronger than your level 10 self.

    The power difference is enough that I wanted to make a level 10-12 "twink" tank to help boost friends through dungeons (you know, while doing 50+% of the group's overall damage), but if you turn off EXP you hurt anyone else grouped with you. Oh well..

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Autoriot View Post
    Wow, I didn't read the whole thread but a LOT of people on at least the first page completely missed the OP's point/argument. Yes, a level 30 player is stronger when facing off against a level 10 player (pvp), and the level 30 player is stronger against a level 20 mob then a level 10 player is against a level 20 mob.

    BUT

    A level 10 is much stronger than a level 30 when facing scaling content, so dungeons AND outdoors content that is being scaled to your level, which is all leveling content.
    And the 10 isn't just slightly stronger, they are significantly stronger. Took a level 10 tank into a dungeon and I could solo 3-4 elites at once (with just basic BoA gear, nothing special or game breaking) in record breaking time/dps, only bosses are overly challenging. Go ahead, try that at 30 or 40 and let me know how it goes. Even if you could do it, it would take 2x or 3x as long.

    So the OP's point is valid. The scaling is out of whack. As you level and gain more abilities/talents/stats you actually get weaker versus equal level mobs. It is just like people leveling in old BfA and losing power as they leveled up from 110-120, with the worst being levels 117-119.

    My level 10-15's alt can defeat most normal mobs in 1 ability, 2 max. But by level 30 they're up to about 7-8 hits/abilities per normal mob kill.

    Now, is all this a big deal? Not really since pvp has brackets and pve leveling is whatever. But you shouldn't feel yourself getting weaker as you level up. Sure, you might spike a little RIGHT when you get a new or improved ability/talent, but you're not going to be stronger than your level 10 self.

    The power difference is enough that I wanted to make a level 10-12 "twink" tank to help boost friends through dungeons (you know, while doing 50+% of the group's overall damage), but if you turn off EXP you hurt anyone else grouped with you. Oh well..

    You are not getting weaker though...the world is getting stronger too.

    At lvl 10 you are doing like 30 dmg as a warrior and monsters have like 150 health
    Vs at lvl 30 you are doing ilke 250 dmg and they have like 2k health

    Before you can easily see this because the worlds didnt scale. Before 1-20 you killed much faster than you did at 110 as well. Its just this time it could be the same monsters.

    You are getting stronger. In group content though its more evident because you are grouped with people who see the elite has 3k health vs their 50 dmg vs you who may see 83k health vs your 500 dmg.

    So when they do 50 dmg to 3k you see it as a higher percentage of dmg. You are not getting weaker as you lvl. You are lvl 30 now...the monsters should be more of a challenge than they were at lvl 10 when u had 1 skill. Its not like your going to that same lvl 10 that remains at lvl 10 and are doing 2 dmg now as opposed to 15 dmg then.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedren View Post
    Yeah I'm not decreasing in power. My power is increasing with a level up. It's just too bad that everything around me is increasing more in power than I am.
    The content becomes more challenging over time. As is the whole point of an RPG.

    In case you didnt notice, enemy mobs also dont use their abilities at all or as much versus low levels. Which again totally makes sense.

    So no, I don't agree at all and this is very much a good thing. You can flex on other people from 50 onwards. Until then everything is scaled. Which is good. Fat chance that next xpac scaling will be extended from 1-50 to 1-60 and youll be able to go into the shadowlands at l10

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by hedren View Post
    I know how it was before scaling came to the game and it was fine. You were able to find groups. In fact I don't like the fact the leveling via dungeons is so fast. It's often essentially the fastest way to do it, at least if you get lucky with groups and dungeons, so much so that it has drained the fun out of questing for me. If dungeon queues took an hour, then that means I could fill in that time with questing. And to be honest, I think I'd prefer that.

    I also know what it was before dungeonfinder came to the game and it was fine too. Dungeons were actually something special. Something you didn't just chainrun. They were the culmination of the story in a zone and you did them until you had all the quests done or outleveled them. And even heroic dungeons weren't something you'd chainrun, because you had an ID and it took a while to find people. Even Wrath dungeons in the beginning took a while to clear.
    The only leveling that should be relevant is the current expansion content, rest should be done fairly fast as this helps with if you want to level multiple chars to max level, also its been a pain to play alts with all the extra things you need to do to bring them inline with your main char.

    You can level the way you want to level and the change has given you even more choice, hitting max level faster actually gives you even more choice because if you wanted to do the other expansion content you can just do it after hitting max or disable xp for a while. Just choose the way you want to lvl and do what content you want to do afterwards, its not like the story is even that great anyway most ppl just ignore it anyway, if you want a good story exp level a few chars in SWTOR and see the difference.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    The content becomes more challenging over time. As is the whole point of an RPG.
    The content isn't supposed to become more challenging by making your character weaker as he increases in level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    The only leveling that should be relevant is the current expansion content
    Then the only leveling there should be is the one in the current expansion. So let us create level 50 characters for free or lower the level cap to 10. Just make 1-10 the game and make it only Shadowlands. Delete the other 99% of the game.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    God forbid you can provide a meaningful contribution in a group with someone 40 levels higher than you

    This is the new game. The game has to scale your damage because otherwise you couldn't enter instances and groups with more than 3 levels discrepancy. Its not going to go away.
    I am lvl 38. The mage was lvl 12. We were doing scarlet monastry. He did 512dps. Where my max was 195. The hunter was even lover with a higher level.
    Amazing game design.

    Doing the 3 times dps of someone 3times higher level than you is not meaningful contribution. IT IS BULLSHIT.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by rhrrngt View Post
    You are not getting weaker though...the world is getting stronger too.
    I am getting weaker because the world is getting stronger.

    If with every point of a stat I gain, every enemy around me gains 2, I might be getting stronger, but that's irrelevant, because literally everything else around me is becoming stronger at a faster rate than I am.

    You need enemies as an anchor point to test your strength against. They need to remain static. Otherwise you can not see your power growth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gref View Post
    I am lvl 38. The mage was lvl 12. We were doing scarlet monastry. He did 512dps. Where my max was 195. The hunter was even lover with a higher level.
    Amazing game design.

    Doing the 3 times dps of someone 3times higher level than you is not meaningful contribution. IT IS BULLSHIT.
    I was just in another group.

    3 dps.

    2 level 12 and 1 level 50

    The level 12 hunter was doing twice as much dps as the level 50

    It's absolutely a thing.

  11. #71
    I promise you, without a doubt, if you have a variety of lvl ranges in the dungeon, everyone is topping their own meter - this IS NOT NEW. All scaled content has created this situation. Do it with a bunch of ppl, one lvl 15, one 25, one 35 etc, and then all link the meters at the end.

    This has been tested to death over the years, in particular with timewalking. Im sure you will respond with "nah bro, we TOTALLY tested it" but i will believe my own experience and testing, along with the hundreds of other people who discussed and tested this to death years ago, over your "trust me bro"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by hedren View Post

    A furbolg in Ashenvale who is level 22 should always be level 22,.[/B]
    The game has moved away from this now - its over, they are not changing it back.

  12. #72
    @hedren we were all laughing at the damage meters and the mage guy was like "Shhh.....do not make blizz realize".  
    how can they fuck this shit up unfuckingbelievable.

    @arkanon mate I am telling you the mage was topping the dps at lvl 12 with a whopping 512dps, where as mine and an the hunters were at 195 and 180. Wtf is this?

  13. #73
    I've no idea why everyone is jumping on the OP for

    While players see different DPS numbers depending on their level, the percentage of damage done to a mob should be equal (or within margin of error) for everyone. If one person sees themselves doing 100 DPS while someone else does 200 DPS, and the other sees themselves doing 2000 DPS while the first guy does 1000 DPS, their output relative to the other person is still double/half depending on which character you look at.

    This has been the case for a while, & I always just presumed it was down to different gear expectations at each level. A level 10 is expected to have a few empty slots, a few greens, maybe a blue piece or two, while a level 50 is expected to have a full set of green/blue items, azerite traits, and maybe a few welfare epics to start off with. Because the average gear point is much lower for the low level character, someone that goes in with full BoAs at level 10 is practically wearing much more powerful equipment than the game expects them to, while the only way to really do this at high level is to get good mythic+/raid gear.

    I'm willing to test this on EU if anyone is bored enough. I can make a level 10 mage & put it against my freshly dinged level 50 mage in a Headless Horseman group, and the fully geared BoA mage will do more damage on both my meter & yours than the level 50 mage

    Edit: This is also part of what made 101 twinks strong in Legion. They had much higher gear than expected relative to their levels, just as the 260+ 111 twinks that could absolutely decimate Freehold solo did. At max level, the gear required for the same effectiveness was a LOT higher.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I promise you, without a doubt, if you have a variety of lvl ranges in the dungeon, everyone is topping their own meter - this IS NOT NEW. All scaled content has created this situation. Do it with a bunch of ppl, one lvl 15, one 25, one 35 etc, and then all link the meters at the end.

    This has been tested to death over the years, in particular with timewalking. Im sure you will respond with "nah bro, we TOTALLY tested it" but i will believe my own experience and testing, along with the hundreds of other people who discussed and tested this to death years ago, over your "trust me bro"
    Hmm I'm not always topping my meter. When I'm on a level 50 the situation is often reversed. Then some other level 10 is topping the meters.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gref View Post
    @hedren we were all laughing at the damage meters and the mage guy was like "Shhh.....do not make blizz realize".  
    how can they fuck this shit up unfuckingbelievable.
    Yeah it's really mind-blowing.

  15. #75
    Blizzard has decided that a system in which we choose whatever path we want is better than a fixed path with fixed mob levels.

    And seemingly, a lot of people like that better over the alternative.

  16. #76
    I'm seeing the opposite in the headless horseman fight, doing like five times more damage than the low levels.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Spacewalrus2010 View Post
    Blizzard has decided that a system in which we choose whatever path we want is better than a fixed path with fixed mob levels.

    And seemingly, a lot of people like that better over the alternative.
    And yet in Shadowlands they are going back to a fixed order for the zones.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thelxi View Post
    I'm seeing the opposite in the headless horseman fight, doing like five times more damage than the low levels.
    Obviously it also depends on what your gear is at level 50.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by hedren View Post
    And yet in Shadowlands they are going back to a fixed order for the zones.
    .
    For your first play through only. You can lvl with WQ after that if you really wanted to.

  19. #79
    I think the issue is more how the damage meter is reading...
    to the meter...you are fighting a level 45 boss and you're doing the appropriate amount of damage...
    the lower level sees a boss with maybe 3000 health but you see a boss with 300,000
    if the low level gets some good crits (say full heirloom gear where the stats do scale quite a bit better) he's going to do a lot better in a percentage wise...lets say 3 frost bolts dropped him down 15% which is about 450 damage
    You on the other hand does the same thing just a little off and you do 10% of his health which is 3000 damage.

    to YOUR the meter the low level just did 4500 damage and you did 3000
    meanwhile the other guys meter sees you doing 300 damage and him doing 450..

    oh no you are definitely stronger you can easily one shot his boss but he scaled a bit better and stats are wonky so it APPEARS he did more.

  20. #80
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    Stop looking for problems, honestly. What on earth is it to you if there's a level 10 carrying you through. Appreciate it instead, noone really cares about what goes on below max level. There's been level 101 and 110s carrying and boosting the last two xpacs alone. Balancing the game below max level is just a headache, it seems hard enough at max level.

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