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  1. #101
    I fail to see why this is even an issue, you go from 10 to 50 in a matter of a few hours anyway at which point the lower levels stop doing more dmg in dungeons than the higher levels. The way I see it is that bringing a low level with an incomplete set of abilities at least provides more damage. Win-Win?

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Synical123 View Post
    Yeah I don’t think there is a problem tbh. Except there are some specs that are absolutely broken. Try to heal with attonement as a disc, it’s horrible. Then go hit something in the face with a holy pally. You’ll literally top the charts
    I'd prefer they improve the specs that scaled terribly instead of lowing those doing busted damage. The main goal of leveling a character is to get it to level cap asap. The sooner the better and if level 10s are carrying 49s, so be it. Both are on the same road to 50+.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Hey There Guys its Metro View Post
    Its because your spells are balanced to kill the same target at the same time regardless of level.
    So when you have one spell its very easy to top the meters.
    When you have a lot, its easy to make mistakes and lose theoretical damage.
    That post isnt about mistakes in rotation.

    Take lvl 10 and lvl 50, spam one skill on the same mob till it dies. lvl 10 will kill mob in 1-2 casts, lvl 50 needs 7-8 casts of the same skill. Relative power of lvl 10 is much greater thah lvl 50. Blizz needs to fix scaling here to at least keep the same relative power, or even better to make lvl 10 kill the same mob with 4-5 casts and lvl 50 with 2-3 casts. Not much difference, but players will feel they become a little stronger while leveling.

    Of course we will not take things like content access, just for relative power in the same content for different lvls.

  4. #104
    Immortal Evolixe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iinverse View Post
    That post isnt about mistakes in rotation.

    Take lvl 10 and lvl 50, spam one skill on the same mob till it dies. lvl 10 will kill mob in 1-2 casts, lvl 50 needs 7-8 casts of the same skill. Relative power of lvl 10 is much greater thah lvl 50. Blizz needs to fix scaling here to at least keep the same relative power, or even better to make lvl 10 kill the same mob with 4-5 casts and lvl 50 with 2-3 casts. Not much difference, but players will feel they become a little stronger while leveling.

    Of course we will not take things like content access, just for relative power in the same content for different lvls.
    What metro means to say is that the level 10 is supposed to spam the one skill. The level 50 isn't.
    As such, the specific skill in question doing relatively more damage at level 10 than the on level 50 is a totally expected outcome

    That's not to say that there couldn't be tweaks in the instances where the difference is completely disproportional beyond the expected outcome.
    But the system itself is great.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by hedren View Post
    I've been doing the headless horseman on my low level toons for experience, and I noticed that my level 10 characters especially always top the meters. Now when you are in a group with high level characters, obviously the numbers are in relation to your own level. I see low numbers, and a level 50 sees high numbers.

    But if you look at the percentage of damage done in comparison to the rest of the group, my level 10 characters can blow away level 50's. I just did it on my arcane mage and you just have to do arcane blast and you'll do like 90% of the groups damage. With level 50 characters in the group.

    Similarly I have a much easier time healing on low level characters, even though they have less spells available. The spells heal for more, and mana regenerates faster.

    I know this is just headless horseman, but I assume this being the case in dungeons from level 10-50 as well. It's obviously the way things scale in dungeons.

    And I know this is just leveling dungeons, but still, I don't think that in an MMO level 10 characters should this easily be outperforming level 50 characters. I don't think that as you gain levels and gain more abilities, your performance should become worse.
    see how it works at 60, the game isnt designed around cap level 50, so expect some weirdness.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Synical123 View Post
    Yeah I don’t think there is a problem tbh. Except there are some specs that are absolutely broken. Try to heal with attonement as a disc, it’s horrible. Then go hit something in the face with a holy pally. You’ll literally top the charts
    Or check the difference between elemental shaman and restoration shaman. Resto does almost twice the damage of ele by just spamming bolt at lower levels.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    What metro means to say is that the level 10 is supposed to spam the one skill. The level 50 isn't.
    As such, the specific skill in question doing relatively more damage at level 10 than the on level 50 is a totally expected outcome

    That's not to say that there couldn't be tweaks in the instances where the difference is completely disproportional beyond the expected outcome.
    But the system itself is great.
    That works wrong in this case too. You can test full 40 or 50 lvl rotation on the same target with 10 lvl and 10 lvl will kill target way faster even with perfect 40-50 lvl execution.

    Also, its wrong when you need to tune relative skill damage. its level 10? It doesn't have essential skills for fiull rotation? So it needs to suffer! kill mob slower. Its natural for RPG.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NihilSustinet View Post
    see how it works at 60, the game isnt designed around cap level 50, so expect some weirdness.
    Why do not design game around all levels? Its just a matter of scaling curves, nothing more.

  8. #108
    Similar thing to what happened during Legion and BFA levelling. No idea why so many people here think it's acceptable now. It felt awful during both Legion and BFA, you growing weaker with every level gained.
    Blizz ended up nerfing the scaling since people left their characters at the minimum level and destroyed everyone and everything. Wonder if they'll nerf here too.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by kukkamies View Post
    Blizz ended up nerfing the scaling since people left their characters at the minimum level and destroyed everyone and everything. Wonder if they'll nerf here too.
    Yep, I remember those minimum level tanks in dungeons doing insane dps. Also they fixed pvp scaling pretty fast despite of rotations and other sh*t like "he has less skills!"

  10. #110
    I did a shadowmoon burial grounds with 3 lvl 10s and the bosses died in like 5 seconds. In a group of level 30+ the instance probably took 20 minutes longer. High levels slow down your clear significantly with scaling now.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synical123 View Post
    Yeah I don’t think there is a problem tbh. Except there are some specs that are absolutely broken. Try to heal with attonement as a disc, it’s horrible. Then go hit something in the face with a holy pally. You’ll literally top the charts
    Shadow meld(or flash heal at lvl10) easily keeps a group up by itself. Attonement sucking at low levels is only a problem, if the player doesn't really want to heal.

  12. #112
    Can't say I've seen this issue. Been topping dps on both my rogue and warlock since level 20, all the way to 50, with mixed levels in all of them. Scaling is fine, some people are just hot garbage.

    Only ones I didn't top were with friends who actually know how to play.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Synical123 View Post
    Well you cared enough to call someone dumb for being correct, so you could at least care enough to admit you were wrong.
    You'll have to show me where I called someone dumb. Or where I'm wrong. I must have missed it.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainyhealz View Post
    Everyone here disagreeing with the op obviously had no clue. Go into a dungeon as a level 10 resto shaman with 4 level 50s and watch as your lightning bolt chunks the boss significantly more than the 50s damage abilities. Feel free to use an actual damage meter addon to help prove you wrong. The op is 100% correct. This is so stupidly obvious that the lower level you are, the more % of damage you contribute
    I noticed this yesterday while playing with a friend as a level 20 resto shaman and everyone else level 50, even on his dps meter I was above him and my lava burst was critting for huge amounts, but when playing with a random pug of other level 20-30s my dps was way lower
    Last edited by apelsinjuice; 2020-10-22 at 08:22 AM.

  15. #115
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    Thumbs down

    haven't read the whole topic in detail, it's rather answer directly to header

    Essence of claim is clear, but also logical and predictable based on scaling mechanism itself (according to conditions of its pure mathematical model, people almost literally called specific consequences of introduction of this outrage already before Legion ~and even separately for PvP, also frighteningly accurate~ do you remember how long ago it happened?). Actually, "level-squish" is possible without scaling, but mechanism/design/organization of lvling itself is now completely based on use of scaling, so no matter how I strive/insist on removing/eradicating/excluding this (and this is how things really are), but it simply can't be painlessly cut out of current/newfangled organization... because everything in the game is interconnected and scaling mechanism violates/affects too many elements of game's design as a whole. They can reduce its influence, tweak numbers, but in no way exclude destructive/problematic factors. In fact, the whole theme with "twisting" can (and very possibly will) easily and naturally end very familiarly *pointing with smirk at Legion's PvP template system* and here I'm hinting not at PvP at all. Remember their main problem/drawback? You know how it ended, right? So this how "scaling things" usually goes.

    Presence of scaling for me is equivalent to red flag, sign of bad taste/incompetence, trigger/indicator of sensor by which one can immediately say that system isn't organized correctly, it requires rough/forced intervention in the process by automation (and, as you already know, it can't function without one). In general, process itself is completely focused on solo passage now (it only raises number of questions and problems in this form when doing it in the group), ignoring laws of universe, ignoring main principles of progress in both story and characters' development in role-playing games (if they're based on this principle, and this game is still such... for now). Process is completely devalued in this way, and if they are so incompetent in creating holistic progressive systems, then it's better for them to abandon "level" indicator altogether: firstly, this will exclude errors multiplied by each element of scaling, and secondly, it will return to square one its component/justice of historical sequence, connectedness of narrative progression... I won't like it, but even that would be better, than what they did. Passing story will become just fun/background/optional element, giving some kind of basic set of equipment, personal experience of motor skills and interface functioning, knowledge of "current" lore, while their main problem will become alternative and adequate itemization (and they don't want to give up this carrot, no no no, it's so cheap and easy, but organizing normal progress' process is expensive, difficult... freeloaders, amateurs). What they're doing now is just half-assed work, retrenchment on everything.

    This is one of main reasons why I don't have even slightest sympathy neither for direct organization of process itself, nor for devs, who designed it.

    We have already discussed this within framework of separate topic and with examples from other games, where I described in sufficient detail my personal degree of disgust for this, but, I think, it's quite enough of what is written above.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    6. Bad world+ (and not only) scaling +(+/+)+/+/+/+/+/+/+/+
    9.
    Quests/leveling (&levels) +(+/+)+(+)
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2020-11-25 at 11:04 AM.
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  16. #116
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    Yes, lower levels have been doing higher % of damage ever since dungeon scaling has been introduced. This is nothing new. It's definitely dumb, but not a big issue as class balance barely matters until max level content.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    For your first play through only. You can lvl with WQ after that if you really wanted to.
    That's just you skipping the story and jumping to the max level content. The story is still in a fixed order.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NihilSustinet View Post
    see how it works at 60, the game isnt designed around cap level 50, so expect some weirdness.
    That won't change that you decrease in power as you increase in level.

  18. #118
    This isn't dumb or illogical, its quite the contrary. At low level, you only have 2-3 buttons to press, and you wouldn't want to have to press them 10 times for each mob. So the mobs' health is scaled in order for you to able to kill it with 2-4 actions. Talking about regular mobs, but applies to dungeon elites and bosses only with higher numbers. As you get more levels and more abilities, the mobs get stronger to not only give you a challenge, so that you feel that those level 40 orcs or demons you kill are more powerful than level 5 boars and wolves, by taking on a tougher enemy you feel your power growing. If you could continue to waste mobs with 2-4 ability presses, you yourself wouldn't feel your growth, since the enemies aren't tougher than the ones you encountered at first.

    Secondly, you have a bigger toolkit, offensive and defensive CDs, dots, extra effects and etc. What would be their point if you didn't need to use them? They'd be something you never pressed and then suddenly at max level in raids and dungeons they become relevant. BOOM, gotta learn how to play your class, but first need to run to the forums and complain that devs didn't organise levelling properly. Instead, you are being gradually introduced to them and are given opportunity to use and understand them.

    it hits the fan when you reach max level. And the difference in relative between level X9 and Y0 (currently 49 and 50) is huge. Suddenly you have to regen after every other pull. Obviously its done because of the gear power jump while being raid-equipped. They did try ilvl scaling in 7.2 which went quite bad for healers and tanks, dunno if they scrapped it completely or adjusted (doesn't seem so). Nevertheless that is the most painful experience, especially while doing the 8.3 content that is boring enough, but takes 2-3 times more to complete even with catch-up gear.

    Take math for example. When you start school, you are doing simple equations, additio and substraction. In high schools, the problem become harder, since you have more knowledge (so to say - bigger toolkit of abilities). Now if they sat you down with a first grader and gave you both an equation appropriate for your 'level' to solve. You would take more time for yours, let's say 5 mins, but a first-grader will solve his within a minute. Applying your logic, he is 5 times more efficient than you, but that doesn't mean that you're dumber. Same with any scaled dungeon, you are under illusion that you are doing the same content, but in fact you are not - the low levels are fighting primitive mobs, and higher levels fight tougher mobs.
    Last edited by Surfacin9; 2020-10-22 at 10:29 AM.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Henako View Post
    You'll have to show me where I called someone dumb. Or where I'm wrong. I must have missed it.
    100% correct, my apologies, I thought you were a different poster.

  20. #120
    Immortal Evolixe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iinverse View Post
    That works wrong in this case too. You can test full 40 or 50 lvl rotation on the same target with 10 lvl and 10 lvl will kill target way faster even with perfect 40-50 lvl execution.

    Also, its wrong when you need to tune relative skill damage. its level 10? It doesn't have essential skills for fiull rotation? So it needs to suffer! kill mob slower. Its natural for RPG.
    Like I said, at that point its just a matter of turning a knob slightly to the left or to the right.
    This content is hardly relevant, so don't be surprised if it takes some time before they bring stuff more in line.

    What matters is that the system itself is functional and works well.

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