Page 7 of 14 FirstFirst ...
5
6
7
8
9
... LastLast
  1. #121
    Legendary! Zka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    hungary
    Posts
    6,780
    Yes, lower levels have been doing higher % of damage ever since dungeon scaling has been introduced. This is nothing new. It's definitely dumb, but not a big issue as class balance barely matters until max level content.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    For your first play through only. You can lvl with WQ after that if you really wanted to.
    That's just you skipping the story and jumping to the max level content. The story is still in a fixed order.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NihilSustinet View Post
    see how it works at 60, the game isnt designed around cap level 50, so expect some weirdness.
    That won't change that you decrease in power as you increase in level.

  3. #123
    This isn't dumb or illogical, its quite the contrary. At low level, you only have 2-3 buttons to press, and you wouldn't want to have to press them 10 times for each mob. So the mobs' health is scaled in order for you to able to kill it with 2-4 actions. Talking about regular mobs, but applies to dungeon elites and bosses only with higher numbers. As you get more levels and more abilities, the mobs get stronger to not only give you a challenge, so that you feel that those level 40 orcs or demons you kill are more powerful than level 5 boars and wolves, by taking on a tougher enemy you feel your power growing. If you could continue to waste mobs with 2-4 ability presses, you yourself wouldn't feel your growth, since the enemies aren't tougher than the ones you encountered at first.

    Secondly, you have a bigger toolkit, offensive and defensive CDs, dots, extra effects and etc. What would be their point if you didn't need to use them? They'd be something you never pressed and then suddenly at max level in raids and dungeons they become relevant. BOOM, gotta learn how to play your class, but first need to run to the forums and complain that devs didn't organise levelling properly. Instead, you are being gradually introduced to them and are given opportunity to use and understand them.

    it hits the fan when you reach max level. And the difference in relative between level X9 and Y0 (currently 49 and 50) is huge. Suddenly you have to regen after every other pull. Obviously its done because of the gear power jump while being raid-equipped. They did try ilvl scaling in 7.2 which went quite bad for healers and tanks, dunno if they scrapped it completely or adjusted (doesn't seem so). Nevertheless that is the most painful experience, especially while doing the 8.3 content that is boring enough, but takes 2-3 times more to complete even with catch-up gear.

    Take math for example. When you start school, you are doing simple equations, additio and substraction. In high schools, the problem become harder, since you have more knowledge (so to say - bigger toolkit of abilities). Now if they sat you down with a first grader and gave you both an equation appropriate for your 'level' to solve. You would take more time for yours, let's say 5 mins, but a first-grader will solve his within a minute. Applying your logic, he is 5 times more efficient than you, but that doesn't mean that you're dumber. Same with any scaled dungeon, you are under illusion that you are doing the same content, but in fact you are not - the low levels are fighting primitive mobs, and higher levels fight tougher mobs.
    Last edited by Surfacin9; 2020-10-22 at 10:29 AM.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Henako View Post
    You'll have to show me where I called someone dumb. Or where I'm wrong. I must have missed it.
    100% correct, my apologies, I thought you were a different poster.

  5. #125
    Immortal Evolixe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    In the Shadows
    Posts
    7,262
    Quote Originally Posted by iinverse View Post
    That works wrong in this case too. You can test full 40 or 50 lvl rotation on the same target with 10 lvl and 10 lvl will kill target way faster even with perfect 40-50 lvl execution.

    Also, its wrong when you need to tune relative skill damage. its level 10? It doesn't have essential skills for fiull rotation? So it needs to suffer! kill mob slower. Its natural for RPG.
    Like I said, at that point its just a matter of turning a knob slightly to the left or to the right.
    This content is hardly relevant, so don't be surprised if it takes some time before they bring stuff more in line.

    What matters is that the system itself is functional and works well.

  6. #126
    Funny seeing those level 11s/15s etc doing the 50% of the groups damage with Arcane Explosion, Spinning Crane Kick and so on

    And its not only on AoE, those abilities does 50% of their damage on singe target bosses too. On my meters the mage was doing up to 6k dps on some packs :P

    I am not complaining, dungeons are literally melting.
    Last edited by Doffen; 2020-10-22 at 02:39 PM.
    - Enough prattling. Let them come. We shall grind their bones to dust.

  7. #127
    denial - There is no such thing, it is impossible for a level 50 to do significantly less damage than a level 10
    anger - How could you say Blizz screwed up scaling, HOW COULD YOU
    bargaining - Ok, the scaling must be way off, but leveling dungeons doesn't matter
    depression <<< This topic is now here
    acceptance

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    Like I said, at that point its just a matter of turning a knob slightly to the left or to the right.
    This content is hardly relevant, so don't be surprised if it takes some time before they bring stuff more in line.
    It may be not relevant while leveling 10th alt, but its relevant for people who want RPG feel while leveling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    What matters is that the system itself is functional and works well.
    Again, it works well while you levling 10th alt. It doesnt work when you want to actually feel growing in power while leveling.
    It can be fixed pretty quickly (just by calibrating scalig curve), idk why blizz didn't do it earlier.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by iinverse View Post
    That works wrong in this case too. You can test full 40 or 50 lvl rotation on the same target with 10 lvl and 10 lvl will kill target way faster even with perfect 40-50 lvl execution.

    Also, its wrong when you need to tune relative skill damage. its level 10? It doesn't have essential skills for fiull rotation? So it needs to suffer! kill mob slower. Its natural for RPG.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Why do not design game around all levels? Its just a matter of scaling curves, nothing more.
    man, if thats all it is, maybe you should get a job at blizzard and teach them how to do their jobs

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by NihilSustinet View Post
    man, if thats all it is, maybe you should get a job at blizzard and teach them how to do their jobs
    I don't want to change my job just for fixing leveling in WoW. But you know, I, as a player, can say what's wrong with it, and suggest some solution.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    This isn't hate, we just have vastly different opinions on how the levelling experience should be shaped.

    I, and with me I believe the vast majority of people support world scaling and the ability to level (almost) anywhere with (almost) anyone of (almost) any level.
    To me that just feels weird. I’m not familiar with the specifics of the new leveling system so excuse me if this isn’t exactly how it works, but to me, “I’m level 10, I’m gonna go quest in Icecrown!” just feels wrong.

    It should be that each zone has a level range that roughly matches its progression into that expansion’s story.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    It should be that each zone has a level range that roughly matches its progression into that expansion’s story.
    How do you believe it must work to actually complete each zone story progression if zones become obsolete very quickly using your system?
    With new system you can at least progress main story of chosen expansion.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Zka View Post
    Yes, lower levels have been doing higher % of damage ever since dungeon scaling has been introduced. This is nothing new. It's definitely dumb, but not a big issue as class balance barely matters until max level content.
    I don't think they have. It looks like all damage meters just not properly calculating damage when in a scaled group like that.

  14. #134
    Brewmaster
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Unda da bridge, mon
    Posts
    1,409
    People aren't looking at the raw damage.
    The issue is that, when scaled down to 10, the mob health is lower, which is by design to allow lower level characters with a lesser toolkit actually be able to kill things.
    As you level, you gain in power and mobs gain more HP, but the HP gain rate by mobs outweighs the overall "power gain" by the player.
    The player still doe smore damage, the mobs are just more spongier than previous levels.

    What you get is a damage meter saying "the level 10 did 50% of the total boss HP damage all by himself!!" but, in reality, the level 10 did 50 damage per attack to a mob with 1000 HP, whereas the level 50 did 1000 damage per attack to a mob with 50000 HP, meaning the damage increased by a factor of 20, but the HP increased by a factor of 50.
    So the overall % of health lost by the mob per second was greater for the 10 due to the health scaling of the mob being more favorable for lower levels.
    **Made up numbers to show the mathematic outcome of scaling**

    It's not new, it's not unique, and a level 10 isn't more "powerful" than a level 50.
    The level 10 simply gets an easier path to level because otherwise if the ratios were even, it would take 20 seconds per mob since they have only 1-2 abilities that can do any damage.

    You can say "Down with scaling then, since the HP is all messed up!", but then all you do is create a major problem of not having dynamic group finder groups, leaving you to wait in queue forever and a day bc everyone has to be within 3-5 levels of you AND also queueing for the same xpac dungeon set.
    No thanks.
    If a level 10 contributes in a dungeon, great. Makes it faster for all.

  15. #135
    Immortal Evolixe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    In the Shadows
    Posts
    7,262
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    To me that just feels weird. I’m not familiar with the specifics of the new leveling system so excuse me if this isn’t exactly how it works, but to me, “I’m level 10, I’m gonna go quest in Icecrown!” just feels wrong.

    It should be that each zone has a level range that roughly matches its progression into that expansion’s story.
    Other than your feelings and historic experience theres really nothing to say it should be so.

    This is like old people and technology. You're stuck in old ways and the game has moved past those.

  16. #136
    Brewmaster
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Unda da bridge, mon
    Posts
    1,409
    Quote Originally Posted by Pohut View Post
    I don't think they have. It looks like all damage meters just not properly calculating damage when in a scaled group like that.
    Yeah, this is the perceived issue.
    The addons don't take into account the difference in scaling between a level 10 mob HP vs a level 50 mob HP.
    The level 50 does much, much more overall raw damage when compared to a level 10, but their level 50 mob has even more HP than the difference in damage factor.
    For example, it means the level 10's 50 damage per second takes 5% of the boss health, whereas the level 50s 1000 damage per second takes only 2% of the boss health.
    The addons don't take that into account, they just try to round up or down to get everyone on the same relative level, but it does so with static math based on damage, not based on the target HP.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    Other than your feelings and historic experience theres really nothing to say it should be so.

    This is like old people and technology. You're stuck in old ways and the game has moved past those.
    What a useless response! Impressive.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by iinverse View Post
    How do you believe it must work to actually complete each zone story progression if zones become obsolete very quickly using your system?
    With new system you can at least progress main story of chosen expansion.
    I would absolutely want to preserve that by putting zones sequentially so that a zone later in an expansion appears later in the levels, and earlier zones appear earlier. I don't know what you mean when you say "zones become obsolete very quickly"... that's not my intention at all.

  18. #138
    Immortal Evolixe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    In the Shadows
    Posts
    7,262
    Quote Originally Posted by iinverse View Post
    It may be not relevant while leveling 10th alt, but its relevant for people who want RPG feel while leveling.
    The only people that this possibly poses any obstacle for is veterans. New players wont give a damn one way or the other.

    At that point you really should wonder if its worth all this worry. Which i really think it isnt.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    What a useless response!
    Oh the irony

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Synical123 View Post
    100% correct, my apologies, I thought you were a different poster.
    No stress. I make mistakes all the time, too.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    Yeah, this is the perceived issue.
    The addons don't take into account the difference in scaling between a level 10 mob HP vs a level 50 mob HP.
    The level 50 does much, much more overall raw damage when compared to a level 10, but their level 50 mob has even more HP than the difference in damage factor.
    For example, it means the level 10's 50 damage per second takes 5% of the boss health, whereas the level 50s 1000 damage per second takes only 2% of the boss health.
    The addons don't take that into account, they just try to round up or down to get everyone on the same relative level, but it does so with static math based on damage, not based on the target HP.
    That already was answered earlier. Yes, player become stronger each level. But the main problem that environment becomes stronger too, but way faster than player. Assuming that we have EVERYTHING scalable around leveling player, his relative powers gets weaker every level.

    Its like you was smartest kid in kindergarden, then you go to school, get more knowledge, but other kids gain it faster and became smater than you. And while you became smarter than previous you, you also became the dumbest kid in the entire school.

    We need system that allow lvl 40 to kill boar in Durotar faster than lvl 10 for the same mob. Its natural for RPG to kill mob slower while lowlevel and faster when high level. But now we have a sutiation where lvl 10 can kill the same mob in 2-3 seconds, while lvl 40 needs 5-10 seconds to kill the same mob.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •