Doing more damage at low levels now

[vagnar]

It does kinda make sense. As you gain levels the game gets harder, with level scaling this is shown as lower levels doing a higher proportion of damage (i.e. they can kill mobs quicker.) A dungeon taken by all lvl 10s would be easier than a dungeon taken by all lvl 50s.

no it's like mobs are leveling up with you, how does that make sense?
not only are they leveling up with you, they are increasing in strength at a faster rate than you

[Evolixe]

In what world that would make sense considering we are talking about the same dungeon?

Ehm, in every world?

Or do you think vanilla deadmines should've been the endgame content?

The lower levels don't have the tools to deal with a lot of the problems these dungeons want to throw at you.
So you'll notice in dungeons but also out in the world that bosses and enemies in general don't use any or as many abilities as they do when you go into the same zone with your level 40/50's. And yes, they also die much easier. Like they always did for lower levels.

[iinverse]

In what world that would make sense considering we are talking about the same dungeon?

In currend World of Warcraft.
Check the run say with full lvl 10 party and full lvl 40 party of the same dungeon and you will see the difference. lvl 40 party will be much weaker in the dungelon and took more time to clear it.

[Beastiel]

I just want to point out that literally every other MMO has nailed scaling, since many years ago, and the dumbfucking retards at Blizz still can't LOL.

not really. Blizzard was significantly more ambitious with scaling. Final fantasy doesn't screw up scaling because 1. higher level cares can only scale down instead of vice versa, 2. they just remove your higher level abilities, which removes 90% of the work.

also blizzard is working on tuning a new expansion and people's biggest concern is their level 10 characters performing well in irrelevant, completely unfailable content.

lol.

[iinverse]

people's biggest concern

That's not a biggest concern. Its just another "balance" "feature" of SL.

[vagnar]

Ehm, in every world?

Or do you think vanilla deadmines should've been the endgame content?

The lower levels don't have the tools to deal with a lot of the problems these dungeons want to throw at you.
So you'll notice in dungeons but also out in the world that bosses and enemies in general don't use any or as many abilities as they do when you go into the same zone with your level 40/50's. And yes, they also die much easier. Like they always did for lower levels.

When you go back to Deadmines at level 60, the mobs there are still the same level and are much easier to kill.

In current WoW, Deadmines not only scales up with you, it becomes harder as your level increases.

[DarkAmbient]

Why did so many people attack the OP? What they are saying is true and should not be happening. You'd think posters here were personally responsible for the bad scaling...

[Koward]

Why did so many people attack the OP? What they are saying is true and should not be happening. You'd think posters here were personally responsible for the bad scaling...

This. It's incredible to read the first page. What OP posted was instantly distorted.

[Toybox]

Why did so many people attack the OP? What they are saying is true and should not be happening. You'd think posters here were personally responsible for the bad scaling...

Because they're ill-informed. No-one attacked me when I showed them proof of how scaling actually works

[RobertMugabe]

I repeat. You are actually decreasing in power as you level up and gain more abilities.

The obvious solution to this problem would be to not have level 10's group up with level 50's. They should be doing different content.

No you aren't, it's just that all content is easier at lower levels and scaled more to your advantage. It has always been this way. In vanilla all the first few mobs were also easy to kill and you instantly regenerated all of your mana, while a few levels later it all changed. The game is NOT supposed to be easier the more you level up. That would be just dumb.

But other than that, yeah sure there are some scaling issues in relation with playing with players of very different levels, but that's just bound to happen when you allow players 10-50 to do the same dungeons. There isn't an easy fix to this and honestly it's not even issue overall. The point is: The game itself for YOU gets increasingly harder and that has always been like this.

[Toybox]

No you aren't, it's just that all content is easier at lower levels and scaled more to your advantage. It has always been this way. In vanilla all the first few mobs were also easy to kill and you instantly regenerated all of your mana, while a few levels later it all changed. The game is NOT supposed to be easier the more you level up. That would be just dumb.

Is it supposed to get harder when you get more abilities, experience, & fight the exact same mobs? I think that's part of what people are debating.

I still maintain it's a byproduct of an otherwise great change to the leveling experience, but it is pretty nonsensical from an RPG PoV (if anyone still views WoW as an RPG ).

[RobertMugabe]

[QUOTE=Toybox;52752851]Is it supposed to get harder when you get more abilities, experience, & fight the exact same mobs? I think that's part of what people are debating.

It is supposed to be this way. Since when have you been playing WoW?!

Let's take classic as an example. You are a lvl 1 gnome mage in Dun Morogh and your quest is to kill 8 wolves for some meat. You can quickly and easily kill all 8 of them with just 1 button and without needing to ever stop, because your mana and hp regen so fast. Then you're lvl12 and you're in Loch Modan and have to kill some bears and spiders. Already at this point you must drink every 2 mobs, use frost nova, kite etc.

I still maintain it's a byproduct of an otherwise great change to the leveling experience, but it is pretty nonsensical from an RPG PoV (if anyone still views WoW as an RPG ).

So according to you in an RPG the hardest parts of the game are supposed to be the first few mobs, while the easiest part should be the endboss?

[vagnar]

It is supposed to be this way. Since when have you been playing WoW?!

Since a time when there was no scaling.

Let's take classic as an example. You are a lvl 1 gnome mage in Dun Morogh and your quest is to kill 8 wolves for some meat. You can quickly and easily kill all 8 of them with just 1 button and without needing to ever stop, because your mana and hp regen so fast. Then you're lvl12 and you're in Loch Modan and have to kill some bears and spiders. Already at this point you must drink every 2 mobs, use frost nova, kite etc.

Your example does not look at level scaling, so it is already irrelevant.

Your example takes two different mobs in two different zones at two different fixed levels. Not the same mob in the same place, just scaled up to match your level.

If you go back to Dun Morogh at level 20, you'll probably kill the same mob in one hit. Because his level is fixed and your level increased. You grew in power and he stayed the same. Similarly if you go to Loch Modan at level 1, you'll have no chance against any mob. Because your level is too low.

Obviously as the game progresses the game throws bigger challenges at you. But we're talking about different content here. Different dungeons. For different levels.

With level scaling in current WoW we are talking about the same dungeon, the same content. Just scaling up with you, not only staying as difficult it is, but actually becoming more difficult. Which makes it better to be a lower level than to be a higher level and leads to lower levels outperforming higher level players.

I mean when you've gotten to the point where players take level 10 characters and experience lock them to stay at that level and then offer their services to rush people through dungeons, you know you've fucked up as a designer.

- - - Updated - - -

So according to you in an RPG the hardest parts of the game are supposed to be the first few mobs, while the easiest part should be the endboss?

But we don't have the endboss being harder than the "first few mobs".

What we have is the "first few mobs" becoming harder because you leveled up.

[iinverse]

So according to you in an RPG the hardest parts of the game are supposed to be the first few mobs, while the easiest part should be the endboss?

Common content avalilable for all levels must become easier with leveling, thats obviously. "Endbosses" must be harder for higher lvl and very hard or (nearly) imposible for 10 lvl. Now we have the situation where "Endboss" is piece of cake for 10 lvl and harder for 40-50 lvl.

[Toybox]

I didn't say that Damn quoting system.

[iinverse]

I didn't say that Damn quoting system.

Sorry, it seems that his post contains some errors with bb codes Fixed

[oblakoff]

This issue could easily be averted by allowing us to queue for ALL dungeons and matchmaking be done with people in similar levels. But no, we should split the playerbase in seven different queues for no apparent reason.

[Shaetha]

That's the problem with the new system.

No, the problem is people using damage meters irresponsibly. They're not for you to judge other players. They're for you to judge you.

Worry about yourself. Take care of yourself. Try to find people with which you like to play, and play with them. You're never going to fully enjoy a multiplayer game unless you do. Stop looking for reasons to dislike things. Instead, try to make the best of what you have. Obviously you shouldn't take any wooden nickels, but a civilized human's default reaction should not be hostility.

[vagnar]

This issue could easily be averted by allowing us to queue for ALL dungeons and matchmaking be done with people in similar levels. But no, we should split the playerbase in seven different queues for no apparent reason.

I think the best way to deal with this issue is to get rid of scaling and get rid of dungeonfinder. Dungeons have mutated into this thing that you run over and over, in low levels it's because of the bonus experience of a random dungeon, when it used to be that you only did dungeons when they were in your levelrange and they had quests that provided a good amount of experience.

The game needs to be completely broken down and restructured at this point.

- - - Updated - - -

No, the problem is people using damage meters irresponsibly. They're not for you to judge other players. They're for you to judge you.

Worry about yourself. Take care of yourself. Try to find people with which you like to play, and play with them. You're never going to fully enjoy a multiplayer game unless you do. Stop looking for reasons to dislike things. Instead, try to make the best of what you have. Obviously you shouldn't take any wooden nickels, but a civilized human's default reaction should not be hostility.

damage meters are not the problem, they just make it apparent how broken the game is

even without damage meters, low level players would still be outperforming high level players

you would still see the difference in the game without damage meters, you just have to pay more attention to the actions of the individual players to notice it

[Evolixe]

When you go back to Deadmines at level 60, the mobs there are still the same level and are much easier to kill.

In current WoW, Deadmines not only scales up with you, it becomes harder as your level increases.

You missed the entire point, wow


The content scales with you. Yes. That's the whole idea of it.
Like its always been, you have an easy time early on. And gradually the game works you up to overcome bigger challenges.

It would be completely nonsensical for level 10's to be having the hardest time in the game and the latest mythic endboss be an easy oneshot.

Now if you say you don't like THE WAY that this is done, you have an argument (not a very compelling one, but an argument nonetheless).
But to say the system is dysfunctional entirely is a complete 0head conclusion.