Doing more damage at low levels now

[vagnar]

You missed the entire point, wow


The content scales with you. Yes. That's the whole idea of it.
Like its always been

We didn't always have scaling. It is you that is missing the point.

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It would be completely nonsensical for level 10's to be having the hardest time in the game and the latest mythic endboss be an easy oneshot.

Yeah level 10 players shouldn't have a hard time. They should have easy content and max level players should have hard content.

Different content.

Not the same content scaled up.

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Now if you say you don't like THE WAY that this is done, you have an argument (not a very compelling one, but an argument nonetheless).
But to say the system is dysfunctional entirely is a complete 0head conclusion.

When you level up and become weaker, then it's not just the system that is dysfunctional, the entire game is.

[Evolixe]

We didn't always have scaling. It is you that is missing the point.

I'm not missing the point, I just disagree.

Yeah level 10 players shouldn't have a hard time. They should have easy content and max level players should have hard content.

Different content.

Not the same content scaled up.

Again, that is your opinion. And I don't share it. I think the new system is great and makes for a lot of inclusion.
I can finally level with my friends without having to be careful to over or underlevel them at any point in time.
We can do the same quests, the same content, and generally have a fun time without any regard for the other parties level.

There are definitely some things that could be ironed out, like I really think that at this point we should be able to queue for all dungeons regardless of the timewalking path we chose. At least as a veteran player (it can be understandably confusing for a new player).
But that doesn't make it a bad system. Its a great system, there is just even more improvements that could be made and I'm sure with time will be made.

When you level up and become weaker, then it's not just the system that is dysfunctional, the entire game is.

You don't become weaker. Everything else becomes stronger.
Which is the expected outcome of a game that literally stands and falls on progression for the very vast majority of its playerbase.

[Nyel]

It's just another scaling issue (scaling for the sake of scaling). I'm curious to see how people like the experience that they get drastically weaker on their way to 60. It's the same as in BfA again, where you gradually lose stuff and get weaker over the course to max level. And on max level your class feels absolutely awful because you lost Azerite, your good equipment etc. and gained nothing in exchange.

I've read that you're about 30-40% stronger on level 50 now than you'll be on level 60. Sounds like fun, doesn't it?

[vagnar]

It's just another scaling issue (scaling for the sake of scaling). I'm curious to see how people like the experience that they get drastically weaker on their way to 60. It's the same as in BfA again, where you gradually lose stuff and get weaker over the course to max level. And on max level your class feels absolutely awful because you lost Azerite, your good equipment etc. and gained nothing in exchange.

I've read that you're about 30-40% stronger on level 50 now than you'll be on level 60. Sounds like fun, doesn't it?

I mean throw into that that we constantly have our stats squished. We had a stat squish at the beginning of BFA and now again one at the beginning of Shadowlands. Seeing your numbers get squashed like that alone makes you feel weaker, and it is just happening on a regular basis now. There is no reason why we shouldn't just expect this to be happening at the start of every expansion now.

[Kehego]

It's just another scaling issue (scaling for the sake of scaling). I'm curious to see how people like the experience that they get drastically weaker on their way to 60. It's the same as in BfA again, where you gradually lose stuff and get weaker over the course to max level. And on max level your class feels absolutely awful because you lost Azerite, your good equipment etc. and gained nothing in exchange.

I've read that you're about 30-40% stronger on level 50 now than you'll be on level 60. Sounds like fun, doesn't it?

there's always some retard every prepatch mentioning how they were stronger in the last content patch of expansion A and weaker in the first content patch of expansion B

[Nyel]

there's always some retard every prepatch mentioning how they were stronger in the last content patch of expansion A and weaker in the first content patch of expansion B

This wasn't the case up until BfA though (because scaling didn't exist). No matter what, you've always grown stronger in new expansions and not drastically weaker as it is the case transitioning from Legion -> BfA and BfA -> Shadowlands.

[PenguinChan]

This also entirely depends on what content you're running as well. Doing Classic / Cataclysm revamp zones makes you totally destroy everything. But if you queue for recent expansions things tend to take longer to kill even at level 15, even 10.

[czarek]

Headless horseman instance is scaled dude like timewalking :P

[iinverse]

Not sure it entirely matters, or is entirely true either.

I know I had to go out and help a few low levels the past few weeks, through party sync, and my L50 characters were absolutely destroying whatever elite mobs they were getting one-shot by (even when party synced).

I believe we're talking about fully geared 50lvl, not fresh ones?

[Tinary]

Are you sure its not a problem of different skill on players? I have never had an issue low levels out performing me when i have to dps. Heck even when i level with my friends its hard to find a low level player outperforming tanks or properly skilled high levels. There might be some random arcane mage doing fast st dmg but thats just a ramp up time difference, in a longer fight he aint and in aoe, almost all low levels fall flat. Its just another pointless complain just to complain.

Also blizzard has stated multiple times that they balance/scale based on how long should you kill a target on a certain level not based of how much dps you do.

For example, lets say you are arcane mage at level 10. You have Arcane blast and Arcane barrage. 2 skills. How long should it take to kill a target? 3 presses on skill or 10? is 10 arcane blasts to kill a random mob fun? is 2?
Lets say you are Arcane mage at level 50. You have Arcane blast, Arcane barrage, Arcane missile, touch of the magi, arcane power, presence of mind and talent choices. How long it should take to kill a mob? Same as level 10? 2 arcane blasts? Is that fun or using your kit is more fun? So lets take you need to use 6 set of skills to kill a target. That is more fun as level 50, not as fun as level 10 tho.

Now lets say you are grouped up with level 50 in a random dungeon. The mob is scaled based on your level so if you are level 10 in that dungeon, boss should take 10 button presses to die cause you only have 2 skills. If you are level 50 in that dungeon, boss is scaled at your level and takes 40 button presses to die. If the boss takes 10 button presses for lvl 50 to die its not fun.

Now lets say you scale everything so that everything is scaled based on level 50 in dungeon. Is it fun to press arcane blast 40 times at level 10 so that you would do relatively same DPS as level 50?

So in conclusion its not the damage that affects the scaling, its the time to kill a target because you have more buttons. It would be horrible experience for level 10s in dungeons if it would take them the same time to kill a target as to level 50s. Not to mention they would be instantly kicked.

(Also headless horseman is not a proper example anyway, its a random fast bossfight)

[Enty]

snip

Don't know man, i would expect to kill same Durotar boar faster at level 50 than level 10.

We are not talking about different mobs in different zones in different level ranges with different abilities (not to mention lore implications) - it is the same mob which gets stronger each time you get stronger. And it gets stronger more than you do. What this means is that you are getting weaker relatively to this said mob. There is no skill involved. If the same abilities takes off 25% HP per cast at level 10, and 10% at level 50, you can claim skill all you want, level 10 will kill mob in 4 GCDs while you do in 10.

Imagine somehow 2+2 becomes harder to calculate the older you are.

[VinceVega]

I don't feel like i am getting weaker in open world.

Dungeons? Yeah. A Level 10 Tank does 70% of group dmg right now which is weird. But does it really bother me? No. Idc. It is leveling. Why would i watch the dmg meter? I just want to get through the dungeon.

[vagnar]

I believe we're talking about fully geared 50lvl, not fresh ones?

everybody is fully geared

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Are you sure its not a problem of different skill on players?

when I do 50% of the damage on a rogue, mage, warlock or hunter, who is missing half of his skills he needs at max level, and level 50's are barely managing to do 10-15% of the damage, it's not a matter of skill

this happens on a regular basis

what am I just really good at clicking sininster strike?

[erifwodahs]

Doing HH runs on my alts.
My semi geared frost mage is always leaps and bounds ahead of low levels/low geared 50s.
My PvP geared DH is always doing 50% of groups damage and I choose a tank role, but go as DPS as it's just faster and DHs dont die.
My BiS geared paladin tank is always on top too. Max level.

[Azerate]

Do I think it is a problem that when low levels get grouped up with higher levels to do holiday bosses they outdo them in performance?

Nope.

If WoW had more scaling than just party sync, leveling, and holiday events, then that might have been an issue. But it's not. We don't have raids that both capped players and lower levels can participate in, like in FF14 for example.

Sure, on paper it sounds wrong, but in reality it doesn't matter at all, beacuse that "relative power" at lower level doesn't translate into anything and the content at lower level is properly tuned to account for that.

[vagnar]

Do I think it is a problem that when low levels get grouped up with higher levels to do holiday bosses they outdo them in performance?

This is about all dungeons.

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D
If WoW had more scaling than just party sync, leveling, and holiday events, then that might have been an issue.

Have you heard that all dungeons between 10-50 get scaled?

[Eurhetemec]

Yeah level 10 players shouldn't have a hard time. They should have easy content and max level players should have hard content.

Different content.

Not the same content scaled up.

If you believe this, then half your posts in this thread (or more) are disingenuous.

You cannot reasonably argue both that they absolutely should have different content, and that they're incorrectly balanced in this content and need to be changed. Pick one as your real concern.

Also, demanding lowbies do different content is both unreasonable and unrealistic - the whole point of this design is to let people play together through the content they want to, and there's absolutely no possibility Blizzard are going to reverse this, especially as the number of people who care is tiny. More likely Blizzard may refine the balance a bit, if that.

When you level up and become weaker, then it's not just the system that is dysfunctional, the entire game is.

Except it isn't "the entire game". The open world doesn't feel like you're "getting weaker" (not for any class I've played anyway), nor are there any problems once you are 50.

It's leveling 10-50 via dungeons that is imbalanced. It's not a new issue, either, it was just less obvious because of the way the dungeons were broken up, previously. In 8.X, if you were a level 55 Rogue in, say Ragefire Chasm, you'd absolutely be blown away on DPS by a level 15 or 20 or 30 Rogue. A level 52 tank would have huge difficulty holding any kind of aggro at at all off lowbies in there. But because only the 15-60 dungeons put in people with wildly different numbers of abilities together.

Overall the tone of your argument keeps coming back to DPS, too, which makes it feel like this is something of an e-peen issue. I mean, would it be nice if the numbers were a bit closer, particularly people in the upper 40s and 50s could do a bit better? Sure. Is it like "killing the game" or making the entire game "dysfunctional"? No. It's a low-priority issue that would be nice to see improve.

I should note that as a healer, it doesn't really feel like you're getting weaker with levels either - individual heals may get smaller but your ability to sustain healing and keep a group up definitely increases. Lower-level healers usually drop some huge heals and them go OOM on sustained or spread-damage fights.

[vagnar]

If you believe this, then half your posts in this thread (or more) are disingenuous.

You cannot reasonably argue both that they absolutely should have different content, and that they're incorrectly balanced in this content and need to be changed. Pick one as your real concern.

I don't want any form of level scaling in the game.

But as long as it is in the game, it shouldn't be that a level 10 outperforms a level 50. It shouldn't be that my character gets weaker as he levels up.

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Except it isn't "the entire game". The open world doesn't feel like you're "getting weaker" (not for any class I've played anyway), nor are there any problems once you are 50.

Oh that is absolutely the case. The higher you are in level, the harder things are to kill and near max level, on some classes, it can be really frustrating. Go to Legion content at level 10 and see how easy things fall over. Go do the same content at level 50 and see how long it takes. This isn't just dungeons. It's the entire game.

[ymirsson]

The higher you are in level, the harder things are to kill and near max level, on some classes, it can be really frustrating.

But it's always been this way. You want the game to be redesigned because your umpteenth alt at lvl 12 can kill things faster in Suramar then your lvl 49 holy priest?

[Eurhetemec]

I don't want any form of level scaling in the game.

But as long as it is in the game, it shouldn't be that a level 10 outperforms a level 50. It shouldn't be that my character gets weaker as he levels up.

Level scaling is here to stay. I'd say "go play a different game if you don't like it", but most of them also use level scaling. Because it's a huge waste of content and limitation on player freedom if you don't. I'm sure someone will make a new Vanguard or Wildstar and advertise it with "NO LEVEL SCALING!!!!" as a feature, eventually. Then it'll die from lack of players less than a year after it releases.

Oh that is absolutely the case. The higher you are in level, the harder things are to kill and near max level, on some classes, it can be really frustrating. Go to Legion content at level 10 and see how easy things fall over. Go do the same content at level 50 and see how long it takes. This isn't just dungeons. It's the entire game.

This is nonsense, dude, that you're pushing for a sort of "game-political" reason, because you have this weird anti-scaling ideology/agenda. I literally just level 10-50 in BfA just now. I absolutely did not "feel like I was getting weaker" as I went up levels. I felt like my rotation was getting more complicated, but I was quite clearly killing things gradually faster, and taking less damage whilst doing it.

I was slightly surprised that I didn't, because in dungeons I did feel like I was having to work about 2x as hard to do about 0.8x as well as a tank, but still, I did not notice my performance declining - instead it was demonstrably improving (again, in both DPS and tank specs in the open world, I could kill more mobs, faster and safer - yeah I had to use more abilities, and there was a lot less standing around holding my nuts in my rotations, but that's not really a bad thing).

It seems like the levels you're really bad about are pretty much 10-20 or 10-25 at the outside, too. Those are the only ones where things seemed "easier" (but also more boring and not necessarily any safer, and with little access to AOE for most classes). Also, Hunters are uniquely badly balanced here, I note, for whatever reason. Rogues seem pretty shoddy at 10 actually.