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  1. #1

    Better MM talents.

    Just saw a post on the DH forums on fun new talents that the poster dreamt up and I felt inspired to do something similar to MM for fun, and also as a form of therapy after years of terrible MM talent trees.


    Piercing Shots

    Replaces Aimed Shot.
    Deal X% damage to the main target and (20% of X)% damage to all enemies between you and the target.


    Patient Sniper

    Aimed Shot damage increased by 5% when you stand still. Aimed Shot can be cast while moving.


    Windburst

    Replaces Trueshot Aura.
    Increases haste by 30%, range by 10% and movement speed by 20%. Your Precise shots buffs are immediately consumed to fire conjured wind arrows that hit your primary target for (Arcane Shot damage).


    Chimaera shot (I know this is already a talent, but I would have preferred something like this)

    Replaces Rapid Fire.
    Fire twin arrows that hit your primary target and a nearby target for X% damage. For each target hit gain 5 focus. Also activates Trick Shot.


    Take Aim

    20 Focus, no GCD
    Increases the damage of your next Aimed Shot by 10% and decreases the cast time by 20%, stacks up to 3 times. If used outside of combat increase Aimed Shot focus cost by 20 focus.



    Just a few talents I came up with. Would love some feedback, and potentially other talent suggestions. I have no illusions anything will come of this, but it is nice to dream every so often.
    And yes, I am aware that most of these abilities replaces an already existing ability instead of adding something new, I just personally find that MM has enough buttons already, no need to add more.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  2. #2
    Charging Shot

    Leap toward the target while firing a shot that does X damage. Using this ability finishes the cooldown on Disengage.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Devylknyght View Post
    Charging Shot

    Leap toward the target while firing a shot that does X damage. Using this ability finishes the cooldown on Disengage.
    I dunno, that feels more like a Survival ability. Not really sure how it fits the vague MM theme of a supremely skilled archer/sniper.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I dunno, that feels more like a Survival ability. Not really sure how it fits the vague MM theme of a supremely skilled archer/sniper.
    Supremely skilled Archers can shoot and be accurate on the move. Some players like to move a lot. This talent would be for them. Others could pick one of the other 2 talents on the row.

    May not fit the sniper thing but pretty hard to make everything fit both themes.
    Last edited by Devylknyght; 2020-10-21 at 09:54 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Devylknyght View Post
    Supremely skilled Archers can shoot and be accurate on the move. Some players like to move a lot. This talent would be for them. Others could pick one of the other 2 talents on the row.

    May not fit the sniper thing but pretty hard to make everything fit both themes.
    That's true. Though I still dont really see how the fantasy of the ability would work, I feel like there is a more elegant solution for those who like to jump around and do damage.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I do love the idea of a talent that is not too dissimilar to the momentum talent from the Havoc talent tree.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    That's true. Though I still dont really see how the fantasy of the ability would work, I feel like there is a more elegant solution for those who like to jump around and do damage.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I do love the idea of a talent that is not too dissimilar to the momentum talent from the Havoc talent tree.
    I imagine a Hunter leaping in through the bushes firing an Arrow mid flight. In my head I see Legolas lol. Not sure if there was a specific scene or not. Tbh I would be in favor of some new specs being added to the game. could bring back old school caster MM and create a new instant cast movement based one.

  7. #7
    i like your idea of chimaera shot. it would make the spec a little more fluid to play. patient sniper is just wod marksman back. that's not a bad thing at all but it really should just go back to being the baseline standard for marksman. you can shoot on the move but you are encouraged to move as little as possible. it was such a unique and fun way to play.

  8. #8
    I would like the old explosive shot back:
    Explosive Shot
    "Fires a slow-moving munition directly forward. Activating this ability a second time detonates the Shot,
    dealing up to (1000% of Attack power) Fire damage to all enemies within 8 yds, damage based on proximity."
    And:

    Piercing Shots
    Replaces Aimed Shot.
    A powerful shot which deals up to (x% of weapon damage) Physical damage to the target and up to (x% of weapon damage) Physical damage to all enemies between you and the target. When 4 or more targets are hit, bursting shot damage is increased by x% (only up to 5 targets can be hit)

    Patient Vigilant Sniper (Baseline Passive ability)
    While in combat, Aimed Shot critical chance increased by 1% to 5% for every 5 seconds when not taking any damage.Aimed Shot can be cast while moving.

    Killing Blow (Passive Talent ability)
    Replaces Deadeye
    Kill Shot is now only usable on enemies with less than 10% health: Killing a target with kill shot resets kill shot and makes your next Aimed shot instant and triggers Trick Shot automatically for 50% of normal damage. 15 seconds cooldown.

    Rapid Heat. (Talent Passive ability)
    Fire twin arrows that hit your primary target and a nearby target for X% damage. For each target hit gain 5 focus. Also activates Trick Shot.
    Using rapid Fire during Trick shot, enemies hit between 40% and 50% gets applied a fire DoT, burning the target for x amount for 5 seconds.

    Take Aim (Talent Passive ability)
    20 Focus, no GCD
    Increases the damage of your next Aimed Shot by 10% and decreases the cast time by 20%, stacks up to 3 times. If used outside of combat increase Aimed Shot focus cost by 20 focus.

    Aimed shot cast time increased by 25% and for every 100 focus spend not capping your second aimed shot charge, haste and damage is increased by 0.5% stacking up to 10 times

    Windburst
    Replaces Trueshot Aura.
    Increases haste by 30%, range by 10% and movement speed by 20%. Your Precise shots buffs are immediately consumed to fire conjured wind arrows that hit your primary target for (Arcane Shot damage).


    Windburst (Baseline Active ability)
    Only usable outside melee range. A weak, instant attack, dealing x% Physical damage to your target and you gain x% movement speed for 2 seconds. While Windburst hits between 50 to 60 focus, your aimed shot damage is increased by 200%. 10 seconds cooldown.

  9. #9
    I don't really think Piercing shot should be its own ability really. If it was it would need to be way further down the tree if you want it to be picked.


    Not sure how the Killing Blow talent would really work in practice, it seems like an ability more centered around outdoor content than anything, in raids and possibly even M+ it seems like it might be a DPS loss unless Killing Blow is massively buffed to account for the extra time spent not using regular Kill Shot.
    The buff you get is also not that interesting I think, it would need a significant buff to offset the potential DPS loss.


    How would Rapid Heat work in practice though? 40 and 50% is a very small amount of health total, not to mention seeming completely arbitrary. Health percentage based abilities usually work on full health enemies down to a % or execute range since that is when it is most useful.
    (I also dislike Rapid Fire in general)



    I like Take Aim though, seems like it would introduce an interesting playstyle, though I think it would definitely need a buff to function in the SL iteration of MM.


    Your version of Windburst is interesting, though I am unsure how it would work in practice.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  10. #10
    Not every hunter ability should be castable while moving. I understand you “like” moving but everyone does. Do you think Mages, Warlocks etc. like cast time? No of course not. But it’s a part of the challenge of being a ranged spec. Otherwise there is absolutely no downside to playing ranged compared to melee. And there needs to be a downside.

    Playing BM is like playing WoW with cheat codes.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Not every hunter ability should be castable while moving. I understand you “like” moving but everyone does. Do you think Mages, Warlocks etc. like cast time? No of course not. But it’s a part of the challenge of being a ranged spec. Otherwise there is absolutely no downside to playing ranged compared to melee. And there needs to be a downside.

    Playing BM is like playing WoW with cheat codes.
    I agree, though I feel that hunter is an exception. The ability to move while casting Aimed Shot is not that far fetched so long as you apply a penalty to it, or generally heavily incentivize standing still. Personally I found the WoD model the best for this. You can do everything on the move, but you get a damage buff if you stand still, the talent suggestion I made is in that vein of allowing full movement for those who really need it, while still having restrictions for those who want to play MM optimally.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I agree, though I feel that hunter is an exception. The ability to move while casting Aimed Shot is not that far fetched so long as you apply a penalty to it, or generally heavily incentivize standing still. Personally I found the WoD model the best for this. You can do everything on the move, but you get a damage buff if you stand still, the talent suggestion I made is in that vein of allowing full movement for those who really need it, while still having restrictions for those who want to play MM optimally.
    I agree. I just think as a principle that every spec in the game should have some downside. For most ranged spec this downside is cast time. But then we have BM that has no real downsides at all. I cannot see a reason to play a melee spec (except rogue) instead of BM... when BM can do everything that a melee spec can do while being 40 yards away from the targets. Right now there is not really anything that incentivize you to pick a melee spec (except rogue) over BM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I agree. I just think as a principle that every spec in the game should have some downside. For most ranged spec this downside is cast time. But then we have BM that has no real downsides at all. I cannot see a reason to play a melee spec (except rogue) instead of BM... when BM can do everything that a melee spec can do while being 40 yards away from the targets. Right now there is not really anything that incentivize you to pick a melee spec (except rogue) over BM.
    BM has the downside of having most of the damage tied to a single pet I suppose, which means that in many ways it mostly just plays support to a melee, and if you knock out the pet then their advantage is lost.

    On the whole I do tend to agree that BM is too convenient compared to other specs.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I don't really think Piercing shot should be its own ability really. If it was it would need to be way further down the tree if you want it to be picked.
    The name and ability (think Legolas where one arrow pierced through two heads) itself lends itself well for the marksmanship hunter. But it shouldn't replace aimed shot, your signature ability as MM. Adding more non-bloat options is a good thing imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Not sure how the Killing Blow talent would really work in practice, it seems like an ability more centered around outdoor content than anything, in raids and possibly even M+ it seems like it might be a DPS loss unless Killing Blow is massively buffed to account for the extra time spent not using regular Kill Shot.
    The buff you get is also not that interesting I think, it would need a significant buff to offset the potential DPS loss.
    It's not about how much damage it does since the damage itself can be fine-tuned to be viable. This talent was brought to life to add to a more interesting mechanic during aoe packs. Volley, trickshot, explosive shot are nice, but doesn't engage you too much. Killing Blow will add depth through target switching, reaction and add an execute playstyle for a more dynamic approach in an AOE scenario. An alternative to the old damage increase against targets above and below 20% This is more proactive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    How would Rapid Heat work in practice though? 40 and 50% is a very small amount of health total, not to mention seeming completely arbitrary. Health percentage based abilities usually work on full health enemies down to a % or execute range since that is when it is most useful.
    (I also dislike Rapid Fire in general)
    If people were any good min-maxing the vulnerable window in Legion then this shouldn't be a problem. We're already juggling with focus,- and movement management. Aimed shot/rapid fire interaction is augmented in this way and might even not feel too bad if you're capping on aimed shot. Marksmanship is all about windows of opportunity to strike hard, reaction(times) and concentration. As a player you should be rewarded for playing a spec well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I like Take Aim though, seems like it would introduce an interesting playstyle, though I think it would definitely need a buff to function in the SL iteration of MM.
    Yes, in true Markmanship fashion you start slow (imagine using a big bow in real life, drawing the arrow to your chest and aim). As you get your first hit you're then encouraged to go into the flow of the typical MM playstyle where, again, playing the spec well will yield a bonus, making it somewhat easier to manage. As you need to deal with mechanics and unable to attack you start over, the adrenaline has gone. So the debuff of 25% is re-applied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Your version of Windburst is interesting, though I am unsure how it would work in practice.
    It's the counterpart of Killing Blow, but for Single Target. One more ability to work into the rotation to make the current playstyle less lethargic

    These ideas may not work in a practical sense, but since Blizzard moved away from spec identity I felt the need to rekindle it. These ideas mimic my view on the Markmanship identity.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I agree, though I feel that hunter is an exception. The ability to move while casting Aimed Shot is not that far fetched so long as you apply a penalty to it, or generally heavily incentivize standing still. Personally I found the WoD model the best for this. You can do everything on the move, but you get a damage buff if you stand still, the talent suggestion I made is in that vein of allowing full movement for those who really need it, while still having restrictions for those who want to play MM optimally.
    Have to disagree with this. Marksmanship in essence is a spec that stands still, this is the basis. You don't oppose standing still, but you choose the other side of the spectrum. In real life using a bow requires a lot of strength and precision. Yes, there are people who can do it on the move, but you have to ask yourself how hard the arrow can hit the target when you don't string your bow to the fullest while on the move. We're more of a sniper spec. The WoD playstyle was fun I have to admit, but it was a meme. That last tier setbonus made it a bit too casual imo. In conjunction with the mentioned 'Vigilant Sniper' where you have to avoid damage, and the proces of planning your aimed shots while standing you give the spec back it's identity while being harder to master and thus more rewarding. This should apply to every spec in the game.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhominem View Post
    Have to disagree with this. Marksmanship in essence is a spec that stands still, this is the basis. You don't oppose standing still, but you choose the other side of the spectrum. In real life using a bow requires a lot of strength and precision. Yes, there are people who can do it on the move, but you have to ask yourself how hard the arrow can hit the target when you don't string your bow to the fullest while on the move. We're more of a sniper spec. The WoD playstyle was fun I have to admit, but it was a meme. That last tier setbonus made it a bit too casual imo. In conjunction with the mentioned 'Vigilant Sniper' where you have to avoid damage, and the proces of planning your aimed shots while standing you give the spec back it's identity while being harder to master and thus more rewarding. This should apply to every spec in the game.
    Marksman is essentially playing as Legolas from the later Lotr movies, possibly even the Hobbit. Realism is left by the wayside when you have abilities such as Rapid Fire and Trick Shots.
    Whether it is realistic or even necessarily fair to other ranged specs it used to be common knowledge that Hunters were able to cast on the move, which was part of their standard toolkit. Marksman later had this part nerfed so it could have a more distinct niche as the Sniper Spec, but that doesnt mean it shouldnt be allowed to cast on the move necessarily, just that it should have a significant penalty for doing so, and in that regard I found the WoD model ideal, you had to stand still if you wanted to do proper damage, but you could also move unhindered if that was needed.

    The Hellfire Citadel 4-piece set isnt exactly a good example to use against it as well. For one it is not at all part of the base spec, not to mention that most of the strength of that 4-set came with the Legion revamp that forced MM hunters to stand still for Aimed Shot, which the set bonus allowed you ot circumvent.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Marksman is essentially playing as Legolas from the later Lotr movies, possibly even the Hobbit. Realism is left by the wayside when you have abilities such as Rapid Fire and Trick Shots.
    Whether it is realistic or even necessarily fair to other ranged specs it used to be common knowledge that Hunters were able to cast on the move, which was part of their standard toolkit. Marksman later had this part nerfed so it could have a more distinct niche as the Sniper Spec, but that doesnt mean it shouldnt be allowed to cast on the move necessarily, just that it should have a significant penalty for doing so, and in that regard I found the WoD model ideal, you had to stand still if you wanted to do proper damage, but you could also move unhindered if that was needed.

    The Hellfire Citadel 4-piece set isnt exactly a good example to use against it as well. For one it is not at all part of the base spec, not to mention that most of the strength of that 4-set came with the Legion revamp that forced MM hunters to stand still for Aimed Shot, which the set bonus allowed you ot circumvent.
    You forgot the signature ability: Aimed Shot. Rapid Fire and Trick Shots are lesser additions to augment the spec in different scenario's. While Legolas is a marksman, he's by no means an accurate description of what a bowman is. I'm aware that opinions differ on what MM really is. Some subscribe to the more traditional depiction while others choose a more flamboyant portrait. This means that realism and surrealism are a grey area to explore.

    It doesn't make sense to me to have three mobile hunterspecs in the game so seeing MM nerf to be more of a glass cannon sounds better imo. Like I said, you're choosing the opposite spectrum where standing still reaps rewards as a large bonus instead of being a core mechanic in a more traditional way.

    I can think of multiple posts where people were championing a castable while moving Aimed Shot and point at the WoD playstyle as (one of) the best iterations of MM, therefor it's a good example of how MM should not be molded. It's in line with how people want to dumbdown specs to experience a more casual playstyle and do well on the damagemeters. For me it's simple: if people don't like standing still then Marksmanship shouldn't be for them.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhominem View Post
    I can think of multiple posts where people were championing a castable while moving Aimed Shot and point at the WoD playstyle as (one of) the best iterations of MM, therefor it's a good example of how MM should not be molded. It's in line with how people want to dumbdown specs to experience a more casual playstyle and do well on the damagemeters. For me it's simple: if people don't like standing still then Marksmanship shouldn't be for them.
    In my opinion the WoD model made the spec more complex. To have skilled players be separate from more casual players you need both restrictions and ways to somewhat circumvent them. In that sense the WoD style of free movement allowed the players to show their skill by moving optimally, and while that is still true when you are prevented from moving I think making it a soft restriction works better.

    There is also the fact that a the WoD style Sniper Training could make more interesting alents.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    In my opinion the WoD model made the spec more complex. To have skilled players be separate from more casual players you need both restrictions and ways to somewhat circumvent them. In that sense the WoD style of free movement allowed the players to show their skill by moving optimally, and while that is still true when you are prevented from moving I think making it a soft restriction works better.

    There is also the fact that a the WoD style Sniper Training could make more interesting alents.
    Surely you jest. WoD's playstyle was arguably the easiest MM iteration. I fail to understand your logic: With the relative free movement you take away a large chunk of management which is a complexity in it's self. When you do stand still to gain the buff you're not losing out on too much dps since it wasn't as penalizing as it is in the style of Legion for instance. The exhortation to 100% plan your movement appeals to me more, but this is merely a personal opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I think making it a soft restriction works better.
    Basically you have more free reign while you reserve concentration to allocate to fewer playmechanics: That's dumbing down a spec in my view.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhominem View Post
    Surely you jest. WoD's playstyle was arguably the easiest MM iteration. I fail to understand your logic: With the relative free movement you take away a large chunk of management which is a complexity in it's self. When you do stand still to gain the buff you're not losing out on too much dps since it wasn't as penalizing as it is in the style of Legion for instance. The exhortation to 100% plan your movement appeals to me more, but this is merely a personal opinion.


    Basically you have more free reign while you reserve concentration to allocate to fewer playmechanics: That's dumbing down a spec in my view.
    In WoD you were able to move completely freely, but had to take a heavy penalty to damage if you didnt know what you were doing. In that way it allowed the MM players to naturally fall into the groups that managed to move properly and get the damage they wanted, while still allowing full freedom fo movement as an utility option at the cost of damage.
    Mostly what I liked about it was that it gave new players a slow introduction to the idea that they have to ration out their movement, knowing when and where to move without being completely gimped on damage if something forces them to stay on the move.

    I am not arguing that you should make movement easier just to make it easier, I am arguing that making movement easier allows the complexity in the spec to come from elsewhere.
    The WoD playstyle still required a bit of thought, and the ability to move freely with a penalty I found to be an interesting pseudo-utility option.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

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