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  1. #101
    The problem is that Sylvanas STILL had popular support after the Burning of Teldrassil. So the people of the Horde knew that Sylvanas just committed genocide, and they still supported her. Only a few years after the terrible civil war against Garrosh.

    Sure there were some dissidents in Orgrimmar, but the overwhelming majority were still somehow loyal to Sylvanas. That is why the wretched Horde deserves to be wiped out from the face of Azeroth.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-10-23 at 06:11 PM.
    I will tell you what I told my own son when he picked up his first blade and played at being a soldier. Whatever your elders have told you... War is not glory. War is seeing people at their very worst and choosing to protect them anyway.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDragon View Post
    How come a lot of Alliance players still believe that the Horde knew Sylvanas was planning on burning Teldrassil? I mean it's pretty clear only Sylvanas and potentially Nathanos with some loyalists knew, but the other Horde representatives and people were oblivious that would occur. Granted, there's the ethical situation afterwards regarding the Horde not ousting her immediately but then as she planned the attention was on the inevitable Alliance retaliation and anger from both sides. Ultimately the Horde did organize a coo against her
    Probably because they did not play the Horde questline and on Alliance side it's never explained.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The problem is that Sylvanas STILL had popular support after the Burning of Teldrassil. So the people of the Horde knew that Sylvanas just committed genocide, and they still supported her. Only a few years after the terrible civil war against Garrosh.

    Sure there were some dissidents in Orgrimmar, but the overwhelming majority were still somehow loyal to Sylvanas. That is why the wretched Horde deserves to be wiped out from the face of Azeroth.
    I mean not to get political but didn't something similar happen between America and Japan during WWII? Still, fighting genocide with genocide isn't usually great

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDragon View Post
    I mean not to get political but didn't something similar happen between America and Japan during WWII? Still, fighting genocide with genocide isn't usually great
    It's not real life. I don't give a shit about exterminating a fictional race. It's a bunch of pixels.
    I will tell you what I told my own son when he picked up his first blade and played at being a soldier. Whatever your elders have told you... War is not glory. War is seeing people at their very worst and choosing to protect them anyway.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    It's not real life. I don't give a shit about exterminating a fictional race. It's a bunch of pixels.
    That wasn't really my point Besides, no faction will win which makes the war story redundant

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDragon View Post
    That wasn't really my point Besides, no faction will win which makes the war story redundant
    What is your point?

    I know that won't happen, regardless I wouldn't weep tears for the Horde if they were finally wiped out.
    I will tell you what I told my own son when he picked up his first blade and played at being a soldier. Whatever your elders have told you... War is not glory. War is seeing people at their very worst and choosing to protect them anyway.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    What is your point?

    I know that won't happen, regardless I wouldn't weep tears for the Horde if they were finally wiped out.
    Genocide can be praised by the masses if you spin it well enough, much like the American people cheered the nuking of Hiroshima. Obviously we as the players no genocide is bad, but depending on the propaganda it's easy to see people would support it

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDragon View Post
    Genocide can be praised by the masses if you spin it well enough, much like the American people cheered the nuking of Hiroshima. Obviously we as the players no genocide is bad, but depending on the propaganda it's easy to see people would support it
    The difference being that the people of the Horde had a rebellion against a genocidal Warchief literally 2 years prior to the Fourth War.
    I will tell you what I told my own son when he picked up his first blade and played at being a soldier. Whatever your elders have told you... War is not glory. War is seeing people at their very worst and choosing to protect them anyway.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDragon View Post
    How come a lot of Alliance players still believe that the Horde knew Sylvanas was planning on burning Teldrassil? I mean it's pretty clear only Sylvanas and potentially Nathanos with some loyalists knew, but the other Horde representatives and people were oblivious that would occur. Granted, there's the ethical situation afterwards regarding the Horde not ousting her immediately but then as she planned the attention was on the inevitable Alliance retaliation and anger from both sides. Ultimately the Horde did organize a coo against her
    Because Blizzard shoehorned the whole battle in at the end of an expansion with a couple quests and a scenario.
    All of it was so badly done that none of it is believable in how it played out.
    The fact that people need to read books about what theoretically actually happened in game makes it even worse.
    How did the catapults and azerite make it to darkshore if nobody except a "select few" knew about it?
    It would be hard not so see that this was going to be more than a simple siege after weeks of combat.


    This goes back to your point that it is impossible to do faction conflict in WOW because it has no agency or weight.
    Things go along a predetermined path because the writers have a plan in mind not because of anything you do as a player.
    Just as they made that whole 15 minute "rescue" at Teldrassil that limited your involvement to the very last second.
    Not to mention that whole Horde and Alliance seeing the same events from "different angles" nonsense.
    That is literally the whole basis for the idea that the Horder "thought" everything was justified.
    No better than bad terrain being the reason the Alliance thought the Horde betrayed them at the broken shore.


    So because of all that you have to take Blizzard's word for it on how things went down regardless of whether it makes sense or not.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/War_of_the_Thorns

    https://www.wowhead.com/guides/burni...re-patch-event

    And on top of that combat has never been realistic in WOW even compared to the RTS.
    Because none of the strategy in terms of resource gathering and troop movements were added to the game.
    In addition to no offensive / defensive vehicles and equipment means that things just happen by script.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2020-10-23 at 06:51 PM.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The difference being that the people of the Horde had a rebellion against a genocidal Warchief literally 2 years prior to the Fourth War.
    Well yeah it's shitty writing

  11. #111
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The difference being that the people of the Horde had a rebellion against a genocidal Warchief literally 2 years prior to the Fourth War.
    Keep in mind the horde didn’t dislike or rebel against either for wanting or actually partaking in genocide in both cases they only turned on there Warchief when they started acting against members of the horde, the horde loves when both acted against they alliance no matter how extreme said actions were.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Those two things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, though I think the evidence cleaves more toward Sylvanas being in the "mastermind" mold, especially as A Good War itself intimates she has a greater plan in mind.
    Originally Posted by A Good War
    And that was almost certainly true, wasn’t it? Elune had intervened. Perhaps she had even stayed Saurfang’s killing blow. And she wouldn’t be the only force beyond the Alliance to oppose Sylvanas’s true objective.

    Sylvanas’s anger grew cold.

    She had known this would happen. It had simply come sooner than expected. That was all. (Source)
    this is one of those things that I dislike with Blizzard's writing, especially when a scene or moment like this is written by numerous different people.

    Did Sylvanas get triggered by Delaryn, did she plan to do this the entire time, did Malfurion's survival really lead to this. We may never know the truth and the truth later on might be canonized by someone being asked who doesn't know either, but says something that makes it canon.

    I'd like to think that with Elune saving Malfurion, she was more willing to burn the tree, because they needed to hit the Alliance and Elves hard. If this is true, Elune in a way, playing favorites got all those elves killed.

    Doing this because of Delaryn doesn't look good, cause no one is witnessing this conversation but us, no one knows that Delaryn basically told her that they'll never give up, etc...

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDragon View Post
    I mean it's pretty clear only Sylvanas and potentially Nathanos with some loyalists knew, but the other Horde representatives and people were oblivious that would occur.
    It’s easy to see how people can have incorrect perceptions on the event as you clearly demonstrate.

    In no media, dialogue, or quest text has it even stated that Sylvanas planned to burn Teldrassil.
    Much like her outburst in front of the gates or Ogrimmar, Sylvanas clearly made an emotional snap-judgement because Delaryn told her she was pitiable and burned the tree.

  14. #114
    She burned the tree because Blizzard needed her to in order to frame the faction war for the expansion.
    The problem was Blizzard shoehorned it in during a few weeks of questing at the end of legion.
    Which means no in depth story telling or decent narrative or even decent game play could be created for such a short piece of content.
    If they really wanted to make this an epic battle with a climactic finale they would have had it unfold during BFA proper.
    But they didn't because it was simpler and cheaper to just throw it in at the end of legion and say thats that, all done, and start BFA.

    And of course when BFA starts we immediately go on a side mission off to some island and Teldrassil is no longer important.
    None of that is about motivation of characters or writing but Blizzard just making new theme park scenarios and jamming them together in random fashion. Wanna see Teldrassil get burnt down? Check. Queue for the Teldrassil theme ride. Wanna see Lordaeron get attacked? Check. Queue for that. Any narrative or storytelling that went along with it was purely filler and not to be taken too seriously.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2020-10-24 at 01:21 PM.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Villager720 View Post
    It’s easy to see how people can have incorrect perceptions on the event as you clearly demonstrate.

    In no media, dialogue, or quest text has it even stated that Sylvanas planned to burn Teldrassil.
    Much like her outburst in front of the gates or Ogrimmar, Sylvanas clearly made an emotional snap-judgement because Delaryn told her she was pitiable and burned the tree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Villager720 View Post
    It’s easy to see how people can have incorrect perceptions on the event as you clearly demonstrate.

    In no media, dialogue, or quest text has it even stated that Sylvanas planned to burn Teldrassil.
    Much like her outburst in front of the gates or Ogrimmar, Sylvanas clearly made an emotional snap-judgement because Delaryn told her she was pitiable and burned the tree.
    I mean it's ambiguous at best if she planned it. Prior to this Sylvanas was shown as a cold calculating tactician, always doing something with purpose. I concede I forgot about Nathanos reaction and the purpose of the seige engines. We're still left with two reasons; she either threw a tantrum over some random or she wanted a pointless war for some conveluted reason. Both are silly

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    this is one of those things that I dislike with Blizzard's writing, especially when a scene or moment like this is written by numerous different people.

    Did Sylvanas get triggered by Delaryn, did she plan to do this the entire time, did Malfurion's survival really lead to this. We may never know the truth and the truth later on might be canonized by someone being asked who doesn't know either, but says something that makes it canon.

    I'd like to think that with Elune saving Malfurion, she was more willing to burn the tree, because they needed to hit the Alliance and Elves hard. If this is true, Elune in a way, playing favorites got all those elves killed.

    Doing this because of Delaryn doesn't look good, cause no one is witnessing this conversation but us, no one knows that Delaryn basically told her that they'll never give up, etc...
    I think, as with almost all writing in fiction, there's a degree to which it's left up to you to decide what informed which actions, and which actions are those of Elune (if any). Personally speaking, I don't think Elune herself actually intervened here at all, just Elune has to our knowledge never intervened in the case where war ravages across Azeroth. Elune's interventions tend to be small-scale, such as her putting a shield around Tyrande in the War of the Ancients - actions that are generally personal, but can have a huge cumulative effect all the same. Elune was never going to swoop down and save Teldrassil, per se; but she may have softened Saurfang's heart somewhat, or may have allowed Malfurion to survive his wounds.

    The responsibility for burning Teldrassil, however, lies entirely with Sylvanas. Even if Delayrn's dying declaration somehow inspired Sylvanas' later action, Delaryn deserves no blame for that - nor could she rightly have even conceived of what Sylvanas might do to try to prove Delaryn wrong about hope and the Night Elves' commitment to continue the fight. In that sense, the conversation with Delaryn is kind of immaterial - and burning Teldrassil is an idea Sylvanas could've had without the conversation between the two.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The responsibility for burning Teldrassil, however, lies entirely with Sylvanas. Even if Delayrn's dying declaration somehow inspired Sylvanas' later action, Delaryn deserves no blame for that - nor could she rightly have even conceived of what Sylvanas might do to try to prove Delaryn wrong about hope and the Night Elves' commitment to continue the fight. In that sense, the conversation with Delaryn is kind of immaterial - and burning Teldrassil is an idea Sylvanas could've had without the conversation between the two.
    I dont blame Delaryn, everyone should fight to the bitter end and be defiant in the face of their enemy. But the way that scene is done, it's like it's to prove Delaryn wrong. Which is to prove to a soon to be dead woman who has no witnesses of you crushing her "hope" so it makes you just look like you were going to burn the tree no matter what from the start from the Alliance PoV, but that's basically cannonized to be the truth. It's these moments that are made to be genuine, like Voljin making Sylvanas Warchief to me and many others who have any common sense, is a very genuine scene, but for those "never-sylvanas" people are rewarded with the cannonizing of it not being genuine.

    Basically reminds me of how the truth of Garrosh was that he actually didn't start the fighting in Ashenvale, despite what Alliance believed, to actually being that they're right and he did start it. Which leads me to believe that Warcraft's biggest problem is that there's too many people writing the lore. That a scene or moment has a misconception and also a truth, yet the next writer only uses the misconception as truth.

  18. #118
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    I dont blame Delaryn, everyone should fight to the bitter end and be defiant in the face of their enemy. But the way that scene is done, it's like it's to prove Delaryn wrong. Which is to prove to a soon to be dead woman who has no witnesses of you crushing her "hope" so it makes you just look like you were going to burn the tree no matter what from the start from the Alliance PoV, but that's basically cannonized to be the truth. It's these moments that are made to be genuine, like Voljin making Sylvanas Warchief to me and many others who have any common sense, is a very genuine scene, but for those "never-sylvanas" people are rewarded with the cannonizing of it not being genuine.
    I'm not sure what you're referring to i.e. the Alliance PoV? Beyond the essential principle that in order to understand WoW lore fully you need to know both perspectives, I don't recall the Alliance PoV of the War of Thorns being fundamentally different from the Horde one. It's left a bit open in both cases whether Sylvanas always had the plan to torch Teldrassil or it only occurred to her during her conversation with Delaryn, but even in A Good War Sylvanas intimates an intent above and beyond what she'd related to Saurfang or Nathanos. Perhaps this was originally just a massacre of Night Elven non-combatants in the planned siege of Teldrassil (buoyed by Nathanos' itinerary for "people he wished to visit" in the lead-up to the invasion), and Sylvanas only changed tacks following Saurfang's decision to spare Malfurion and then the conversation with Delaryn. Ultimately, though, it doesn't matter - whether planned or unplanned, Teldrassil was still the end-result of the War of Thorns.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    Basically reminds me of how the truth of Garrosh was that he actually didn't start the fighting in Ashenvale, despite what Alliance believed, to actually being that they're right and he did start it. Which leads me to believe that Warcraft's biggest problem is that there's too many people writing the lore. That a scene or moment has a misconception and also a truth, yet the next writer only uses the misconception as truth.
    I assume you're referring to the Twilight Hammer's slaughter of the Druid meeting in which Hamuul was nearly killed? If so, Garrosh kind of agreed with the Twilight Hammer's actions there, saying he would've done it himself and been glad of it if he had known it was happening. In that sense, despite Garrosh not being the active agent of conflict, he all but demonstrates his willingness to start the conflict anyways.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    I remember in TBC not liking Garrosh and still disliked him in WotLK, like why is this character getting more spotlight. Then going into Cata, they revealed he was going to be the Warchief and people didn't like this and I think it was Alex who said that Garrosh was going to get some development behind the scenes and surprise us. Then Cata happens we see some of these moments and then it just stops and it's like... WTF?!

    The same feeling happened with Sylvanas, you have her and Varian interacting and it's nice, genuine and you have Voljin tell her to save the Horde and she's wrongfully blamed for it by the Alliance. Then you have Voljin who admits he doesn't like her, but in their hour of need she saved them and he's been given clarity and many will not understand but she needs to step out of the shadow and lead and she's genuinely taken back by this. It was a very genuine moment, but again like Garrosh, it feels like they decided to change the story at some point and she was used as a plot tool to get us to the next 2 expansions, kinda like Garrosh was used to get us to MoP and WoD.
    It's called Subverting Expectations™ in Danuser-speak. The same Danuser who thinks that GoT S8 was "brilliant"
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  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I'm not sure what you're referring to i.e. the Alliance PoV? Beyond the essential principle that in order to understand WoW lore fully you need to know both perspectives, I don't recall the Alliance PoV of the War of Thorns being fundamentally different from the Horde one. It's left a bit open in both cases whether Sylvanas always had the plan to torch Teldrassil or it only occurred to her during her conversation with Delaryn, but even in A Good War Sylvanas intimates an intent above and beyond what she'd related to Saurfang or Nathanos. Perhaps this was originally just a massacre of Night Elven non-combatants in the planned siege of Teldrassil (buoyed by Nathanos' itinerary for "people he wished to visit" in the lead-up to the invasion), and Sylvanas only changed tacks following Saurfang's decision to spare Malfurion and then the conversation with Delaryn. Ultimately, though, it doesn't matter - whether planned or unplanned, Teldrassil was still the end-result of the War of Thorns.
    I don't quite agree on the "open ended" bit. The plan as shown and implied through the events we see and A Good War seems to have it that the Main plan was what we saw most of the way with the exception being when Saurfang diverted and spared Malfurion. That was the point where we got the little bit of monologuing and that moment with Summermoon and then even Nathanos was caught off guard with the "Burn it" command.

    Now while I do agree that with respect to the overall events it doesn't matter about why or how the tree burned... The intent behind the actions and any at deception would drastically change some interactions along the way. Like if we're all being lied to the entire time and even Saurfang's planning was just to distract him and Nathanos (her main confidante) is even in the dark as well? Yeah that does change some things.

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