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  1. #121
    Realistically Sylvanas would get overthrown right after the War of Thorns. Saurfang, Rokhan, Baine, Lor'themar and Ji, all were witness to Garrosh's rampage, all agreed it was wrong and should have known better. All it took was "just do it". The Horde's loyalty to Sylvanas wasn't that strong at that point and she wouldn't stand a chance with her undead and minority of other races who already forgot what fate befell them a few years ago.

    After the Battle for Lordaeron, not a chance. Suddenly the Alliance became aggressors (no matter if for good reasons or not) and we all now humans in our world would react like the Horde races, let alone the actual Horde races in fantasy settings.

    The reason why she wasn't overthrown is because Blizzard wanted so. Sadly the quality of writing came to the point where you just can't excuse certain things. They wanted to push for the Shadowlands story, even if it hurt the Warcraft realism and story continuity.

    The story of BfA war is a lorefuck and should be treated as such. The writers sacrificed the realism of the Warcraft universe (by which I mean how characters should behave and act, not muh dragons and fireball are not real lmao) because they wanted the "Sylvanas is such a strong waifu even cosmic beings are making deals with her" plot point to exist.

  2. #122
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    I don't quite agree on the "open ended" bit. The plan as shown and implied through the events we see and A Good War seems to have it that the Main plan was what we saw most of the way with the exception being when Saurfang diverted and spared Malfurion. That was the point where we got the little bit of monologuing and that moment with Summermoon and then even Nathanos was caught off guard with the "Burn it" command.

    Now while I do agree that with respect to the overall events it doesn't matter about why or how the tree burned... The intent behind the actions and any at deception would drastically change some interactions along the way. Like if we're all being lied to the entire time and even Saurfang's planning was just to distract him and Nathanos (her main confidante) is even in the dark as well? Yeah that does change some things.
    A Good War still strongly implies that Sylvanas had other plans (which aren't elaborated on at that time), which in turn implies that what she told Saurfang (and presumably Nathanos) wasn't the full picture of her true plans. The "open ended" part refers to whether or not her burning Teldrassil down was always part of her intimated true plan, or if it was a measure she arrived at due to Delaryn's inadvertent goading. Perhaps she only meant for Malfurion's death to be the capstone on a massacre at Teldrassil, a more mundane killing that what we actually saw as it were. That lacking the symbol of Malfurion's death she needed to make a similar statement and decided to do this by killing the Night Elves in an act of unmitigated atrocity.

    We know she was keeping Saurfang in the dark on many things, and the introductory pages of A Good War are all about her trying to sell unilateral and preemptive war on the Alliance to Saurfang. But we know from Sylvanas' own internal thoughts that her "true plan" was severe enough that she knew Elune would get involved at some point, something Elune has never done prior when cities are destroyed or lands despoiled by war. She was up to *something*, we just don't know if that something involved the burning of Teldrassil beforehand or if that was thought up more or less on the spot.
    "HUMAN BEINGS MAKE LIFE SO INTERESTING. DO YOU KNOW, THAT IN A UNIVERSE SO FULL OF WONDERS, THEY HAVE MANAGED TO INVENT BOREDOM." - Death, Hogfather

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by TickTickTick View Post
    Realistically Sylvanas would get overthrown right after the War of Thorns. Saurfang, Rokhan, Baine, Lor'themar and Ji, all were witness to Garrosh's rampage, all agreed it was wrong and should have known better. All it took was "just do it". The Horde's loyalty to Sylvanas wasn't that strong at that point and she wouldn't stand a chance with her undead and minority of other races who already forgot what fate befell them a few years ago.
    You might be right.... but you might also forget that the alliance, stormwind specifically, wasn't playing nice in the recent lore. SI:7 fucking with goblins on the grounds of "can't trust them"... Anduin setting up a botched meeting that turned into a coup for Lordaeron (failed but still attempted)... 7th Legion forces overtly assaulting horde forces. You might be right that those figures all saw Garrosh at his worst, but keep in mind they also saw the alliance when they (the horde groups) were at their weakest.
    Quote Originally Posted by TickTickTick View Post
    After the Battle for Lordaeron, not a chance. Suddenly the Alliance became aggressors (no matter if for good reasons or not) and we all now humans in our world would react like the Horde races, let alone the actual Horde races in fantasy settings.
    I'd say the alliance were aggressors after Broken Shore, rather than Lordaeron but the lore bent over backwards to make Sylvanas call for a new "unprovoked war" (i think an assassination attempt and a botched coup MORE than count as provocation but that's me)

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    It's called Subverting Expectations™ in Danuser-speak. The same Danuser who thinks that GoT S8 was "brilliant"
    Did he really say that? S8 hurts me so much in so many ways. Visually it was a cool looking season, so if you're almost braindead i can see someone enjoying it, or a child, but anyone who uses braincells can't enjoy S8.

    Subverting expectations is fine, but that's not what's done here. So there's group A and group B. Group A without knowing both sides of the story hates Garrosh/Sylvanas without giving them a chance, either because of a bias or lack of information. Group B pays attention more or doesn't have a bias and gives the character a chance... and in the end group A was right, not because they paid more attention to detail, but Blizzard can follow through with a decent story, without going "Bahahaha Horde actually is evil, gotcha" and then we get a faction expansion like MoP(everything that wasn't faction related was great btw) and BFA(again, non-faction related stuff was great)

    Maybe they should subvert the Alliance's expectations for once, because it seems like that's all that ever matters.

  5. #125
    Bloodsail Admiral tommyhil622's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The problem is that Sylvanas STILL had popular support after the Burning of Teldrassil. So the people of the Horde knew that Sylvanas just committed genocide, and they still supported her. Only a few years after the terrible civil war against Garrosh.

    Sure there were some dissidents in Orgrimmar, but the overwhelming majority were still somehow loyal to Sylvanas. That is why the wretched Horde deserves to be wiped out from the face of Azeroth.
    I don't know if the majority was loyal to Slyvannas and more so the idea of the horde. I don't think we should fault them so harshly. Besides there's a huge difference to being present when the burning of Teldrassil was happening vs hearing about it off hand. There's some nuance there that it's not so clearly defined. Omission/Inaction does not equate to approval.

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