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  1. #1

    Lordaeron/Teldrassil - Missed Opportunity?

    Do you think Blizzard missed an opportunity in having the attack on Lordaeron occur after Teldrassil as opposed to the other way round? Personally I feel it would have made for a more compelling story had Greymane convince Anduin to retake Lordaeron and Gilneas which would then lead to an enraged Sylvanas to burn Teldrassil in retaliation since the kal'dorei aided Gilneans. What's your opinion?

  2. #2
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    I feel regardless of timing the magical ship Jaina conjured up kinda made that whole lordaeron event quite a mockery to all the previous war events in warcraft.

    I believe there was some sort of intend to paint sylvanas up as the expansion bad guy so she could bring us into our next expansion so the timing was done on purpose.

  3. #3
    Yes, pretty much everyone I've talked to about this idea agrees it would have gone better. Before the Storm was an entire book dedicated to "Sylvanas bad, but doesnt want to start a war, Anduin no longer believes Sylvanas can be reasoned with", and then the expansion ends up going with her starting a war anyways and Anduin being surprised she's doing bad things.

    The Alliance has massively more motivations to attack Lordaeron than the Horde does to even care about Teldrassil, let alone burn it. Lordaeron happening first, even with the exact same scenarios, works much more as the Alliance wanting what they see as their land back, and the Horde having the question of what is too far in just vengeance, instead of the Horde randomly being genocidal and starting a war again, and the Alliance being the reactionary sad folks again.

  4. #4
    Pandaren Monk Villager720's Avatar
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    I think Sylvanas killing Calia and the Forsaken in Arathi + concerns about her with access to Azerite would have been a pretty believable justification for attacking Lordaeron. Much as she made the argument to Saurfang about disarming the Alliance before they would strike, the same could and should have been said for a Forsaken-led Horde.
    And that's not even factoring in Greymane to the equation.

    I wonder if perhaps Blizzard hadn't decided the order of events back when they announced BFA (hence their "who dun it?!" framing) and then just settled on what we got when they greenlit the next expansion: Shadowlands.

    --Edit--
    In retrospect this would have been great for the story options. It could have:
    - Compounded and complicated the internal conflict within the Horde as Sylvanas resulted to more and more extreme measures to win a war she didn't start and Saurfang leading a revolution against her with the people who did start it
    - It would have dialed up Sylvanas' latent paranoia regarding the living/betrayal and provided some sympathy and motivation for her actions
    - We wouldn't have to experience a repeat of "rogue" warchief three expansions after the last rogue warchief
    - The bizarre 'Anduin blaming himself for Teldrassil' would actually make sense as he lit the fuse on the Sylvanas bomb with this order of events, which would then make Tyrande's hyper aggression toward him track better
    - The forsaken night elves turning on the Alliance would also track better as at least they'd have a reason (blaming the Alliance for starting the Fourth War unprovoked) for siding with the Horde now
    - Saurfang and Sylvanas wouldn't be as obviously "good/bad" - Saurfang siding against Sylvanas' methods in an Alliance started war is actually morally gray
    Last edited by Villager720; 2020-10-22 at 03:32 PM.

  5. #5
    If they had wanted to properly muddy the villain/heroes line between the factions, they should have done it in reverse, but I think they had written themselves into different corners, for Anduin, he's too much of a pacifist/idealist, he wouldn't declare war for Lordaeron itself, he'd go for re-securing Gilneas at most especially with Alliance naval strength. For Sylvanas, they came up with her "grand plan" and of the two, she would be more likely to instigate a full out war. Genn could try to convince Anduin to attack, but as seen since MoP, he still thinks for himself and would offer a less threatening plan, fully retaking Gilneas, and put pressure on the Horde. Instead Sylvanas somehow dupes the horde into marching on the Night Elves because "after the Legion, the Alliance will totes attack us, they attacked me in Stormheim (i won't tell you what ELSE i was up to tho)" even though literally everyone was still licking wounds. It almost makes logical sense except for the whole, "the Legion was defeated two months ago and now there's a sword in the planet", thing. Blizzard story writing doesn't hold up if you actually look into it.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    I believe there was some sort of intend to paint sylvanas up as the expansion bad guy so she could bring us into our next expansion so the timing was done on purpose.
    I agree it was to make her the bad guy, but the thing is even if Teldrassil was retaliation it still would have been viewed negative and bad guyish, plus her actions in BtS and throughout BfA would have still occurred

  7. #7
    Yes, it'd be better no matter whether you keep the current storyline largely unchanged or commit to an actual faction war. Before the Storm even lays the seeds with an ending where Anduin agrees with Genn that Sylvanas is completely lost and the Alliance leadership are generally for attacking her early. Somewhere along the way though they binned the draft that focused on azerite as the cause and switched to what we ultimately got.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-10-22 at 03:36 PM.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Valandale View Post
    It almost makes logical sense except for the whole, "the Legion was defeated two months ago and now there's a sword in the planet", thing.
    Azerite was supposed to be the reason there was tension in the first place. Neither faction wanted to waste time tending to their wounds when the other could be supplying themselves with a potential weapon of mass destruction.

    Except that, besides a few special tanks here and there, azerite played almost no role in the war.

  9. #9
    Pandaren Monk Villager720's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDragon View Post
    I agree it was to make her the bad guy, but the thing is even if Teldrassil was retaliation it still would have been viewed negative and bad guyish, plus her actions in BtS and throughout BfA would have still occurred
    This could have been better addressed and more compelling by portraying the burning of Teldrassil as accidental.
    The Horde still would have retaliated and tried to capture it - but then when it caught fire in the fighting, the Horde would still be to blame (but now the Alliance indirectly would share some of it for starting the war) without making Sylvanas/the Horde genocidal war criminals.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    Azerite was supposed to be the reason there was tension in the first place. Neither faction wanted to waste time tending to their wounds when the other could be supplying themselves with a potential weapon of mass destruction.

    Except that, besides a few special tanks here and there, azerite played almost no role in the war.
    Gallywix had his fancy mech!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Villager720 View Post
    --Edit--
    In retrospect this would have been great for the story options. It could have:
    - Compounded and complicated the internal conflict within the Horde as Sylvanas resulted to more and more extreme measures to win a war she didn't start and Saurfang leading a revolution against her with the people who did start it
    - It would have dialed up Sylvanas' latent paranoia regarding the living/betrayal and provided some sympathy and motivation for her actions
    - We wouldn't have to experience a repeat of "rogue" warchief three expansions after the last rogue warchief
    - The bizarre 'Anduin blaming himself for Teldrassil' would actually make sense as he lit the fuse on the Sylvanas bomb with this order of events, which would then make Tyrande's hyper aggression toward him track better
    - The forsaken night elves turning on the Alliance would also track better as at least they'd have a reason (blaming the Alliance for starting the Fourth War unprovoked) for siding with the Horde now
    - Saurfang and Sylvanas wouldn't be as obviously "good/bad" - Saurfang siding against Sylvanas' methods in an Alliance started war is actually morally gray
    I completely agree which makes me question if Blizzard felt preasured in not doing this because surely from a creative pov the writers must have known this would have flowed better

  11. #11
    The noble Alliance are not aggressors. We fight only to defend.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDragon View Post
    Do you think Blizzard missed an opportunity in having the attack on Lordaeron occur after Teldrassil as opposed to the other way round? Personally I feel it would have made for a more compelling story had Greymane convince Anduin to retake Lordaeron and Gilneas which would then lead to an enraged Sylvanas to burn Teldrassil in retaliation since the kal'dorei aided Gilneans. What's your opinion?
    It would definitely have been better in many ways and oh so much more convincing.
    But alas Sylvie had too big of a following so her fall to irredeemable villainhood had to be short and brutal (i mean she was definitely evil and a villain before, but not one that had to be dealt with, so to speak, basically i liked her as a "small time villain" by WoW standards).

    Frankly i'd understand them not wanting to involve Anduin, as he's peaceboi, but Genn is a king even just on his own and the Dark Lady had many enemies even before BfA, he would be able to take down the Undercity with a coalition of convenience, possibly backed up by the rest of the Alliance just trying to make sure he doesn't get himself killed.

    It would make a more convincing diversion for the night elves too - being spread both to Silithus and Gilneas means there's scarcely anything left to defend Teldrassil with an they'd have proper reason for both: Pre-empting the horde in Silithus, aiding the Gilneans and striking a blow against an unnatural & corrupting abomination (the forsaken) in the process.

    Edit: Honestly the more i think about it, the more i like the idea of a coalition of convenience led by Genn Greymane.
    It could involve anything from the Scarlet Crusade to various neutrals like the ogres, the syndicate and even some scourge remnants all trying to get a piece of the dark lady's pie, hell even some grudge-bearing trolls might use it as an opportunity to strike against the blood elves and the undead.
    Last edited by loras; 2020-10-22 at 03:53 PM.
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  13. #13
    I mean they could have made it, even more, make sense by instead of somehow going "Nope Stormheim didn't happen, nothing to see here." as the actual starting point of the war itself. Then go and make the alliance launch at Lordaeron first. Use Stromgarde meeting from the horde POV as the alliance trying to set up a coup against the warchief/leader of the Forsaken with Caliah and go with how the game sees Silithus as alliance attacking goblin civilian miners who are just mining. (As Horde you come down after this point and no obligatory quest actually had you going after alliance civilians.)

  14. #14
    My headcanon theory - they are deleted from game to not update them in future reworked zones. Sewers is shit and dont fit new forsaken

    And that wood cube as it is teldrasil is cant be properly reworked. Better to move to nordrassil.

  15. #15
    I'm not sure their writers have that kind of self-introspection, these are the same ones who refuse outside reactions because they don't want bad vibes entering their writing dojo.

    " “Specifically with World of Warcraft, our creative director Alex [Afrasiabi] said a wonderful thing. He said our story rooms are dojos. They’re sacred places. And we try to tell a story as best we can and to make our players as happy as we can. But we try not to let the negativity enter the dojo,” said George Krstic, Blizzard’s director of story and franchise development during his keynote address at Reboot Develop today.

    “You’ve got to clear your mind, focus your mind and do good work. Do we listen to our players and our fans? Absolutely. But also we try not to let that distract us from our end goal of the expansion or the new patch. We have a plan. We are listening. But also those voices can get pretty loud out there."
    https://www.vg247.com/2019/04/12/bli...uence-stories/

    While I do get it on one hand, they still should pay some attention to critiques of their technical storytelling. When the plot is so hamfisted and blunt, it's not enjoyable and the more characters you level and see the bad story, the more obvious the flaws are. Constant mystery spinning is so frustrating because if hints don't actually show up to give players any indication of where it's heading, then it's not a good story. A murder mystery where the reader is given no subtle hints and is just told by a logic-leaping sexy detective in the end how it was so "easy" to find out and then showcase evidence the reader never saw would be terrible.

    The current "bait and switch" suspicion of whether or not Sylvanas is truly evil is frustrating because of what she's done, she should be considered truly evil but blizzard's past storytelling hasn't lived up to that kind of storycrafting, and everyone isn't trusting any direction they take with her to be satisfying in the end.

  16. #16
    Legendary! Zuben's Avatar
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    Sure would've been nice to have something different than the story we've seen quite a few times before.
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

  17. #17
    I think both Undercity and Darnassus got scrapped to make room for future Night Elf / Forsaken development. They were both kind of boxed in to begin with. The Forsaken wouldn't be able to build a new identity under Calia if they kept living in smelly sewers. The Night Elves had meaningful story development for a long time and why would they? They were safe and sound in their treehouse on the far end of the world. Not to mention the in-game implementation of Teldrassil was a horrible artifact of 2004 level design.

    Now the Undead are free to develop above-ground settlement and the Night Elves are returned to the world and the story.

  18. #18
    The story not only makes more sense if Anduin attacks first, you can also spin it as N'Zoth's influence, preying not only on Anduin's mistrust of Sylvanas as established in Before the Storm, but on the fact that she is in part responsible for his father's death. This makes BfA more obviously a N'Zoth expansion, because he's responsible for the faction war. It would also lead quite nicely into Anduin showing some more signs of using void magic in Shadows Rising.
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  19. #19
    I'm pretty sure they'll revamp the world next expansion.

    A lot of stuff while leveling doesn't make sense anymore.
    Night elf's needs a new starting place, as do forsaken.

    Gilneas is just there.

  20. #20
    What's up with you OP, opening multiple Lore threads at once?

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