View Poll Results: Which type of lore do you prefer?

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  • personal lore

    25 65.79%
  • systemic lore

    13 34.21%
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  1. #1

    Question Do you prefer personal lore or systemic lore?

    Death and the undead have been treated in two very different ways in WoW lore.

    1. In vanilla, undead lore was much more personal. You explored the state of affairs of a lone undead wandering Tirisfal Glades, how they approached their suffering and loss, how they felt for things and didn't, how they explored their desire to join the forsaken or go it alone. You went on a quest to deliver a pendant to a grave, and learned of how a happy married met their gruesome end with the plague.

    2. In SL, the lore of death and undead focuses on the systems behind it all. You learn how the machine of death works, how it was broken, and by whom. Who stands to gain from this. You learn of the dark forces behind the veil, who are the masters, who are the cunning, who are the servants, and who are the damned. You learn of the systems in place, and how it fits in the cosmic narrative.

    Which do you prefer?

  2. #2
    It's not as though there's not room to enjoy both kinds of narratives in a world like this. I can easily get invested in both, though I personally do have a soft spot for the kind of stories where I'm able to peek behind the veil at these sort of cosmic workings, as the sort of character who normally shouldn't be there. So if I had to pick, my pick would be for "systemic" lore, I suppose.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by CalamityHeart View Post
    It's not as though there's not room to enjoy both kinds of narratives in a world like this. I can easily get invested in both, though I personally do have a soft spot for the kind of stories where I'm able to peek behind the veil at these sort of cosmic workings, as the sort of character who normally shouldn't be there. So if I had to pick, my pick would be for "systemic" lore, I suppose.
    don't derail the thread by saying both. pick one.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Die View Post
    don't derail the thread by saying both. pick one.
    So aggressive. You can like both.

    Also, if you knew how to read you'd realise they did pick one.

  5. #5
    Both would be the idea, personal lore, makes you feel important and one could get invested in his character, but there is no big picture, say from an RP perspective, you are
    all about undeath, u deal with your situation by the time u are out of Tirisfal glades... then what? You join the rest of the Horde and so on...

    Systemic lore on the hand forms a bigger picture and could be more interesting, but one might feel insignificant in the grand scheme of things, which id wager is how the undead feel right about now.

    A good mix of both would be the ideal lore progression but this is something really hard to achieve in a game like Warcraft... unless u are an RPer and make your own story, you are just a guy that has killed everything in the universe... you plot armor and all that...
    ''Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities'' ~Voltaire
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  6. #6
    Epic! Hansworst's Avatar
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    As a starting character I prefer personal lore. But as my character grows more powerful I want to see the bigger picture.

    See OP, I picked both too.
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    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  7. #7
    You're basically asking what's better between Story (a questline about an undead trying to find their place in the world) and Lore (the background info about how the machine of Death works or what the Jailer did long before the storyline began). Story > Lore. Frankly I don't really care about how Death, Undeath, the machine, etc. all work, it's superfluous information.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-10-26 at 10:40 AM.
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  8. #8
    Legendary! Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Both? I would say both.

    Like, i believe that systemic lore is by far the most interesting lore, but if you have enough systemic lore, personal lore becomes that much more interesting and can far outdo any systemic lore. If the universe is set up in a complex and interesting way, you can make some amazing personal stories, that explores a journey in that system. An example of this is Bwonsamdi, which is an interesting character on his own, but put him in the Loa system, with its own rules and masters, he becomes that much more badass and the entire story springs to life.

    So yeah.... Both.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  9. #9
    Pit Lord KALAMITY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Die View Post
    don't derail the thread by saying both. pick one.

    The first constructive post in your thread, you attack.


    You can like both. It's not derailing your thread. It's forwarding discussion in your thread.


    You can like both.

  10. #10
    Hmm early results say systemic lore is favored. Maybe people prefer the big picture stuff?

  11. #11
    Stood in the Fire guisadop's Avatar
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    Systemic lore tends to be more cartoony, over the top and, in my opinion, boring. I always like to see more of the world than explanations about how the world works - in my experience, these explanations are almost never satisfying enough and will always lose to plain mystery.
    ...that's just my opinion, anyway.

  12. #12
    Epic! Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    Both? I would say both.

    Like, i believe that systemic lore is by far the most interesting lore, but if you have enough systemic lore, personal lore becomes that much more interesting and can far outdo any systemic lore. If the universe is set up in a complex and interesting way, you can make some amazing personal stories, that explores a journey in that system. An example of this is Bwonsamdi, which is an interesting character on his own, but put him in the Loa system, with its own rules and masters, he becomes that much more badass and the entire story springs to life.

    So yeah.... Both.
    Oh I agree. Bwonsamdi feels a hundred times cooler when its shown how he fits in with other Loa. And his personality has improved a lot since we first saw him in Wrath/Cata. He's not just this menacing death god, he's loveable too now

    I am really disappointed with De Other Side though

    So... both for me too

    I'm a Girl by the way
    I see dead people.... Yes, kinda my ting, ya know

  13. #13
    Stood in the Fire George Lucas's Avatar
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    Depends of the implementation. Systemic lore can easily be mishandled, by stuffing your game with a ton of exposition or the presumption that every character knows everything that is known to the player. WoW is a good example for this.

    Systemic lore should just be in the background. Hints in the smaller stories and the option to inform yourself via optional dialogue or ingame books/other media. The only time parts of the bigger picture are revealed should be key moments in the story. For example a big plot twist or/and a confrontation with a big character.

    Personal lore is what makes or breaks a story. If there are no captivating and memorable interactions with individual characters or through the build up of the player character, there isn't really a way to connect to the systemic lore on a emotional level. The systemic lore then becomes some kind of pseudo science, where fans endlessly argue about minor uncertainties in the bigger picture. Elder Scrolls and to a certain extend WoW since Chronicles are a good example for this.

    Voted for personal lore, because personal lore works for me without systemic lore, while the other way around it doesn't. If I want to ponder systems I look at our real world and it's history. In video games it is at it's best just a neat gimmick to me, that supplements the personal lore.
    Last edited by George Lucas; 2020-10-24 at 11:48 AM.

  14. #14
    It's nice to alternate. When we haven't gotten personal or systemic lore once in a while, it's good to get those stories once in a while but obviously we shouldn't get too much of the same story all the time, so it's nice to alternate and have the story give us things we aren't expecting. I liked how in BFA and SL they're giving us lore we aren't as likely to predict like we may have had in past expansions. Lore that's too predictable can ruin a lot of the surprise and build-up and can ruin the pay-off and reward of the story that way. Both personal and systemic lore have their places, but at different times they have both been better suited to tell different stories. It's probably best they consider personal and systemic lore on a case by case basis for each expansion and consider which could tell the best story. As a player I was in the mood for systemic style to come in around SL so I'm happy to see that being the case, but if we had another two expansions of dealing with universal systems it would feel less personal so I would start to get in the mood for that again. That's the feeling I have. I think in a vacuum outside of patterns and what feels best in the moment or for an individual story I think I like systemic lore, but that's probably because I like theorizing and speculating on lore a lot more than feeling emotions when it comes to lore.
    Last edited by Razion; 2020-10-24 at 08:41 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Die View Post
    don't derail the thread by saying both. pick one.
    Fear[----------------------------------------------------------]Love

  16. #16
    Legendary! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Systemic lore can be cool, but imo it's at its best when it's just the framework that lets your character run his/her personal story. I hate when the game forces you to do stupid !@#$, e.g. my Tauren druid being forced to help in the burning of Teldrassil... It was just like... WTF Steve? Are you for real? Worst DM ever ffs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
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    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

  17. #17
    I don't see how we can't have both. Often at the same time. The latter half of Legion included great cosmic battles and personal struggles such as Velen and Kil'jaeden at the same time.



    Even as our ship crashed and we were on a race to the clock on who could destroy who first, we still found time for the struggles of the broken draenei on the surface. Even as we were on the cusp of a civil war involving all the elven clans of Azeroth, we took the time to bury our dead nightborne comrade and remember the loss of others like Runas The Shamed.
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2020-10-26 at 02:02 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  18. #18
    Brewmaster Evaddon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Die View Post
    Death and the undead have been treated in two very different ways in WoW lore.
    They still are though...
    Shadowlands isn't focusing on Undeath/Undead though...like at all...we are in the "Realm of Death" yes, but the Undead aren't really being expanded upon through SL. Just the concept behind Death and what it "means" in the Warcraft Universe, the only thing the Undead have to do with SL is possible Sylvanas motivations...as far as we know right now anyway

    So...I'm not really sure about your example really, confused me on the question posed quiet frankly, a little buzzed so..maybe I'm just a tad slow, but yeah..I'm all for story in anyway, either grand, or small in scope to the individuals of said narrative. Blizzard does this through Warcraft usually pretty decent enough when they don't over jam concepts and ideas and story beats they want to get to as fast as possible, this is USUALLY seen in side quest or side chain quest which have small contained personal stories, that don't effect the overall narrative
    Last edited by Evaddon; 2020-10-26 at 02:19 AM.

  19. #19
    There always has to be a balance of the two.

  20. #20
    Personal. Most fantasy worlds crumble when they start to explain how shit functions (midichlorians -__-) but WoW is especially bad with it, and that's what Blizzard loves to focus on these days for some reason.

    I think I lost any real interest in the story when I saw a lightforged Dreadlord. Now I just wanna see how bad it gets. As a longtime undead player the Calia bullshit actually makes me sad though.

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