1. #1

    9.0 MM and Beyond

    Alright, so I've returned to the game after a long absence and am looking to get my hunter ready for Shadowlands. I came to MMO Champion because it used to have great, civil and constructive conversations about the game and classes. Unfortunately, I see an overwhelming amount whining, complaining and immature insults being thrown around with no provacation. My hope with this thread is to create a place of civil discussion to help new and returning players and existing players with building out their hunter and enjoying their class!

    With the prepatch out, what is currently the best build for Marksmanship Hunters, single target and aoe, and mythic+ and raid?

    Looking forward to a productive conversation and creating an updated thread for hunters to use as a resource.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Closet Nerd View Post
    Unfortunately, I see an overwhelming amount whining, complaining and immature insults being thrown around with no provacation.
    So you are whining about people whining?

    nobody wants to start a conversation with you, when the 1st thing you point out is people whining. if you want a real discussion take out your rules and people may contribute to you.

  3. #3
    also, basically all feedback given for mm during the testing cycle was ignored and blizz even nerfed its focus generation based on what was happening on live. the entire class of hunter is a mess and we need people who actually care about classes again to fix this issue.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    also, basically all feedback given for mm during the testing cycle was ignored and blizz even nerfed its focus generation based on what was happening on live. the entire class of hunter is a mess and we need people who actually care about classes again to fix this issue.
    Why do you need to lie? What you wrote is completely false.

    If anything ,the incessant whining about Hunter's Mark made Blizzard remove the dmg component. I was actually against it, since i did not think for a second that our AoE is balanced around it, but i was in minority and good for people to get what they wanted.

    Talent tree was changed quite a bit and all most of the bugs with the class were resolved.

    Considering the focus change, Blizzard obviously wants focus management to matter. They overkilled it a bit imho, but it can still be smoothed out, i would suggest baking in old MaMa into the spec. Nevertheless, you WILL cast those Steady Shots, like MM did almost all of it's existence prior to Legion.

    I suspect Blizzard is keeping Trueshot like this because they want it to be an option of playstyle (in 8.3 one of the things with MM was to get as much Trueshots as possible, hence the VoP minor essence and Call the Shots talent, which were both mandatory) and believe their intent is that you choose that playstyle again via legendaries (Eagletalon) and conduits/soulbinds.

    About MM itself, i think it is in a good place. Even a tad bit bloaty if you take the best AoE setup.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamais View Post
    Why do you need to lie? What you wrote is completely false.

    If anything ,the incessant whining about Hunter's Mark made Blizzard remove the dmg component. I was actually against it, since i did not think for a second that our AoE is balanced around it, but i was in minority and good for people to get what they wanted.

    Talent tree was changed quite a bit and all most of the bugs with the class were resolved.

    Considering the focus change, Blizzard obviously wants focus management to matter. They overkilled it a bit imho, but it can still be smoothed out, i would suggest baking in old MaMa into the spec. Nevertheless, you WILL cast those Steady Shots, like MM did almost all of it's existence prior to Legion.

    I suspect Blizzard is keeping Trueshot like this because they want it to be an option of playstyle (in 8.3 one of the things with MM was to get as much Trueshots as possible, hence the VoP minor essence and Call the Shots talent, which were both mandatory) and believe their intent is that you choose that playstyle again via legendaries (Eagletalon) and conduits/soulbinds.

    About MM itself, i think it is in a good place. Even a tad bit bloaty if you take the best AoE setup.
    The change to HM is nice and certainly a welcome change, however that still doesnt excuse that MM is a hot mess of a spec. You can talk all you want about how it is all about focus management, but the spec doesnt exaactly showcase that in any significant way beyond throwing moments at you where you have to sacrifice a part of your rotation to salvage the other, like the myriad times when you have to stop using Precise Shot buffs to not cap on Aimed Shot, or vice versa.
    Not to mention the hot mess that is the MM talent tree.

    What MM really needs is for the developers to sit down and actually concisely stating what the spec is about. If it is focus management then we need more talents and abilities that emphasize that. If it is about casting Aimed Shot then we need more talents and abilities strenghtening that.
    MM simply does not have anything you can confidently point to as the "core" of the rotation, instead it has a bunch of somewhat interesting ideas piled on top of eachother with no seeming thought behind how exactly it is supposed to all come together.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamais View Post
    Why do you need to lie? What you wrote is completely false.

    If anything ,the incessant whining about Hunter's Mark made Blizzard remove the dmg component. I was actually against it, since i did not think for a second that our AoE is balanced around it, but i was in minority and good for people to get what they wanted.

    Talent tree was changed quite a bit and all most of the bugs with the class were resolved.

    Considering the focus change, Blizzard obviously wants focus management to matter. They overkilled it a bit imho, but it can still be smoothed out, i would suggest baking in old MaMa into the spec. Nevertheless, you WILL cast those Steady Shots, like MM did almost all of it's existence prior to Legion.

    I suspect Blizzard is keeping Trueshot like this because they want it to be an option of playstyle (in 8.3 one of the things with MM was to get as much Trueshots as possible, hence the VoP minor essence and Call the Shots talent, which were both mandatory) and believe their intent is that you choose that playstyle again via legendaries (Eagletalon) and conduits/soulbinds.

    About MM itself, i think it is in a good place. Even a tad bit bloaty if you take the best AoE setup.
    blizz changed ONE thing. ONE thing we complained about. i'm not going to be happy just because we got crapped on SLIGHTLY less. bad game design is still bad game design. hunters didn't even get a single change during the alpha. it wasn't until the beta that mm focus generation was nerfed hard.

    you are entitled to your opinion. if you think mm and the other specs are fine as is, i can't fight an opinion. it's a feeling, not logic. but nothing i said was a lie.

  7. #7
    I for one am very happy with the minor alterations (especially kill shot and the 2-add cleave!) while keeping the spec almost the same. My only disappointment is the nerf to Flayed Shot. Don't think the it will see much playtime if it will go live as it is.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Perrito View Post
    So you are whining about people whining?

    nobody wants to start a conversation with you, when the 1st thing you point out is people whining. if you want a real discussion take out your rules and people may contribute to you.
    oh pack it in. Why even bother replying?

  9. #9
    Sondrelk, you seem one of the rare civil and polite posters around here, with passion for MM spec.

    So i am gonna be honest with you. Untill the devs make a change on our focus regen or make a statement behind their intent, safest thing to do would be to accept the fact that some Precise Shots simply wont get used.

    Over the years, many specs had various instances of ignoring procs/spells depending on the momentum, available resources etc.

    There is no way Blizzard hasn't read the complaints about the focus management - and they stay silent (ofcourse i would prefer for them to outright state: yes, it is intended for you to ignore Precise Shots during this and that), which leads me to believe that all of this is simply an inteded design.

    I don't think capping on AiS charges or ignoring PS is so detrimental nor it ''feels'' bad, but this is subjective. Besides, you already had to ignore the second PS during Trueshot, but that was not a problem because of old MaMa talent. That's why i think they should just bake it in Trueshot.

    The best thing to make Trueshot feel better is to just give it a flat haste buff, so we cast those Steady shots faster, but i think it is intentional that Trueshot is not that powerful anymore (and remember their reasoning on removing GCD from various cooldowns). I don't mind this, as long as MM dmg is in place still. I was getting tired of Trueshot anyway, whole MM playstyle revolved around it in 8.3 (reducing the CD), but with mandatory CtS talent (which would continue to be mandatory if trueshot is too good), VoP minor and weapon corruption, it could get messy and you would STILL sometimes have to delay it due to timings etc.

    I will repeat, i think Blizzard is trying to give that same playstyle as an option ,rather then being mandatory (Eagletalon legenfdary, seveal conduits).

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamais View Post
    I don't think capping on AiS charges or ignoring PS is so detrimental nor it ''feels'' bad, but this is subjective. Besides, you already had to ignore the second PS during Trueshot, but that was not a problem because of old MaMa talent. That's why i think they should just bake it in Trueshot.

    The best thing to make Trueshot feel better is to just give it a flat haste buff, so we cast those Steady shots faster, but i think it is intentional that Trueshot is not that powerful anymore (and remember their reasoning on removing GCD from various cooldowns). I don't mind this, as long as MM dmg is in place still. I was getting tired of Trueshot anyway, whole MM playstyle revolved around it in 8.3 (reducing the CD), but with mandatory CtS talent (which would continue to be mandatory if trueshot is too good), VoP minor and weapon corruption, it could get messy and you would STILL sometimes have to delay it due to timings etc.

    I will repeat, i think Blizzard is trying to give that same playstyle as an option ,rather then being mandatory (Eagletalon legenfdary, seveal conduits).
    Trueshot might be the one thing I feel I can point to as the true symptom of the cancer that is the current MM class design.
    If a cooldown needs to be changed more than once just to feel good using then something is clearly wrong with the spec. Even Feral that has one of hte most commonly agreed upon bad designs still has a cooldown that players feel good using, even if it feels underpowered. Trueshot is simply one of those abilities where I would almost feel better if Blizzard just removed it from the rotation.
    I suppose the SL legendary that reduces focus costs during Trueshot by 50% will mitigate most of the problems faced during the burst, but if a class needs a legendary to feel good about using a cooldown emphasized enough the developers are willing to place a cooldown reduction for it on the final talent row then something is seriously wrong.

    All I can hope is that MM gets a rework soon. There are always some good ideas for it each time they rework it, but sadly each time they seem to hit some kind of snag that hamstrings the rest.
    As I have said before, the devs really jsut need ot sit down and really concisely state what the spec is actually about and how that fantasy is best achieved with the way classes are designed in WoW.



    Also, thanks for the kind words. Really helps more than you imagine.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  11. #11
    Bloodsail Admiral Pigglix's Avatar
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    Question....since the arcane shot/chimera shot leggo got redesigned, wich leggo is looking the best one now?

    I hope is not the trueshot one..i really dont want go back to calling the shots talent , cuz im totally in love with volley ><

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Pigglix View Post
    Question....since the arcane shot/chimera shot leggo got redesigned, wich leggo is looking the best one now?

    I hope is not the trueshot one..i really dont want go back to calling the shots talent , cuz im totally in love with volley ><
    According to wowhead and understanding things may change so the asterisks is implicit (noted as : spec - ST - AOE):

    Beast Mastery Hunter Soulforge Embers Soulforge Embers
    Marksmanship Hunter Serpentstalker's Trickery Surging Shots
    Survival Hunter Nesingwary's Trapping Apparatus Wildfire Cluster

    Given that Kyrian is the "go to" covenant for the 3 specs both in ST and AOE if the BM rotation implies:

    -Launching a Tar Trap
    -Launching a Resonating Arrow
    -Launching a flare

    ....even in single target there's only these options for me.

    1. Things change
    2. I play MM
    3. I just cut my veins and offer the sacrifice to Elune.

  13. #13
    MM has a million keys after the unpruning.
    My comfortable keybind setup is FULL already, and I literally have no room for 4 keys (hunter's mark, sniper shot, roar of sacrifice, Necrolords glaive).

    MM is unplayable for me in PVP. Too many fucking keys that need quick access to.

    BM is good. A lot of keys too but at least I can fit them.

  14. #14
    Joy of joys, Trueshot got a slight reowrk to mitigate the worst of the focus problems, should at least make the cooldown reduction talent somewhat useful.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Joy of joys, Trueshot got a slight reowrk to mitigate the worst of the focus problems, should at least make the cooldown reduction talent somewhat useful.
    I think that they just broke Trueshot after latest nerfs

  16. #16
    Bloodsail Admiral Pigglix's Avatar
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    And volley just got nerfed by 30%....guess blizz really want to make the talent to be only good at aoe....

    oh well..back to the boring fest of calling the shots...

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