Do people genuinely think the Horde is evil?

[Feanoro]

I promptly stopped responding because I got tired of you peddling abject bullshit and because I had other things to do.

You who quote multiple pages worth of posters and write entire essays of your version of things had other things to do and didn't reply for what, a couple weeks? Sure. Seems more like you wanted to wait until that exchange was buried by a few pages so no one would bother checking you.

It's almost as if I made a mistake, which I just admitted.

It's almost as if I wrote that BEFORE you admitted a mistake. Do we need to sit down and discuss how time works?

constantly trying to discredit other posters instead of making actual arguments and throwing your salt around

You mean, the very behavior you put in damn near every post in which you disagree with someone?

[omeomorfismo]

people hope that the horde is "evil". or at least the forsaken. fuck blizzard

[Kiri]

Jaina and the Silver Covenant killing blood elves in cold blood is considered canon. Same goes for what the Alliance did to the vulpera. Alliance fans are literally refusing acknowledge this and will base things off what Alliance is shown even if the canon states otherwise because Alliance fans are utterly incapable of believing the Alliance can commit heinous acts. They'll say that Archbishop Benedictus was a "rogue agent" or whatever but if someone says the same about a Horde NPC then Alliance fans either laugh at them or froth at the mouth about how that NPC is still Horde regardless.

I can only shrug. To most people, the stuff they personally experience will just trump whatever sources outside of the game consider canon or whatnot - if they even know about it. Most alliance players simply won't know that the is contradicting canon out there. And given how Blizzard's canon is only valid until they feel like retconning it, most won't exactly go out of their way to find it, either.

Again, blame Blizzard. It wouldn't take much for them to update the Alliance scenario to reflect the story that they ostensibly want to tell. Or to give the Alliance some hot Vulpera-burning action. I mean, they did give the Horde quests to spread blight indiscriminately during the Battle of Undercity - complete with a choice to either do it or not do it. But Alliance is not just denied the choice, they aren't even informed that it is happening by the game. I really can't blame people to play through that and get the impression that those heinous acts didn't happen. And just telling them "don't trust your eyes, sheeple, trust this other, contradictory source by the same people that is not made readily available to you and might be retconned anyway" won't exactly convince them.

Though, honestly, in topics like this it is almost never framed as "the Alliance can commit heinous acts" but almost always as "the Alliance did commit heinous acts and they are at least as bad, likely worse than what the Horde did," which rarely leads to fruitful discussion anyway. I mean, I mostly play Alliance myself and I certainly believe that rogue agents exist on either side. But it's always a case by case basis whether or not an NPC can be considered one. For me, the deciding factor is whether or not they commit their acts while part of the faction and with the others being in the know.

[TheRevenantHero]

I can only shrug. To most people, the stuff they personally experience will just trump whatever sources outside of the game consider canon or whatnot - if they even know about it. Most alliance players simply won't know that the is contradicting canon out there. And given how Blizzard's canon is only valid until they feel like retconning it, most won't exactly go out of their way to find it, either.

Again, blame Blizzard. It wouldn't take much for them to update the Alliance scenario to reflect the story that they ostensibly want to tell. Or to give the Alliance some hot Vulpera-burning action. I mean, they did give the Horde quests to spread blight indiscriminately during the Battle of Undercity - complete with a choice to either do it or not do it. But Alliance is not just denied the choice, they aren't even informed that it is happening by the game. I really can't blame people to play through that and get the impression that those heinous acts didn't happen. And just telling them "don't trust your eyes, sheeple, trust this other, contradictory source by the same people that is not made readily available to you and might be retconned anyway" won't exactly convince them.

Though, honestly, in topics like this it is almost never framed as "the Alliance can commit heinous acts" but almost always as "the Alliance did commit heinous acts and they are at least as bad, likely worse than what the Horde did," which rarely leads to fruitful discussion anyway. I mean, I mostly play Alliance myself and I certainly believe that rogue agents exist on either side. But it's always a case by case basis whether or not an NPC can be considered one. For me, the deciding factor is whether or not they commit their acts while part of the faction and with the others being in the know.

I have never once seen a person admit the Alliance has done something bad. I only see people who say anything the Alliance did is justified and then continue to ramble about how evil the Horde is. You can even see it in this thread.

- - - Updated - - -

Vulpera were supporting the Horde. Jaina killed something like 3 people who were part of a group who just helped the Horde to nuke her city and that's because they resisted her.
These acts are insignificant compare to the mass genocides the Horde regularly commit. Not to mention torture, death camps, etc.

You are so incredibly wrong, it's kind of funny. The Alliance was actively lighting the fucking vulpera on fire and Jaina killed more than just 3 people. Also, the Horde doesn't commit mass genocides regularly. They technically didn't even commit ONE genocide, by definition.

[Ardenaso]

Ah, yeah, my bad. There was a battallion of Stormwind troops led by one Lieutenant Corwin though. Maybe whoever was left in charge of Stormwind while Varian was in Pandaria lent her those troops. Who knows. But whether it was specifically Varian or not who gave her aid doesn't alter the point that, contrary to what I was replying there, the Purge wasn't just "actions of one woman" and the Alliance doesn't get to wash their hands off of it.

perhaps they're Theramore soldiers or at least some Jaina symphatizers

[ReVnX]

It's basically a fact.

[sam86]

You tell me, they committed genocide.

yeah, they tried to wipe out 4 of 6 basic races of horde, one of them twice, luckily they failed in all their attempts, they still however hold the lovely record of most genocide faction in Azeroth, with literally millions of sentient races blood on their hands, like Trolls everywhere
U talking about alliance right? I mean u surely not talking about wow horde, who is flat out enemy wc2 horde (aka old horde), the faction that actually did try (and fail) to kill humans

- - - Updated - - -

What else do you call a faction that assists their leader in committing genocide and is perfectly fine to continue following them afterwards?

alliance lol? did u fail entire azeroth history, even most recent like MoP one? i mean horde rebelled against Garrosh, but i see alliance following leader of the architect of Purge of Dalaran with zero objection

- - - Updated - - -

Vulpera were supporting the Horde. Jaina killed something like 3 people who were part of a group who just helped the Horde to nuke her city and that's because they resisted her.
These acts are insignificant compare to the mass genocides the Horde regularly commit. Not to mention torture, death camps, etc.

the only successful genocide in azeroth history is done by.... humans and high elves, the horde only attempt (which done by old horde, a different faction from playable horde btw) was against humans of stormwind, who are very well alive and active and even playable, Trolls on other hands are a fraction of faction, like how belfs are leftovers of successful genocide by Scourge against High Elves
As for torture camps, alliance still win by miles in the infamous camps they horded the orcs in it after wc2, which btw I consider better act than flat out slaughter them, but u seems to ignore that they were still torture camps.. yeah better than flat out kill but they weren't ponies and rainbows either

[bowlink]

I have never once seen a person admit the Alliance has done something bad. I only see people who say anything the Alliance did is justified and then continue to ramble about how evil the Horde is. You can even see it in this thread.

- - - Updated - - -



You are so incredibly wrong, it's kind of funny. The Alliance was actively lighting the fucking vulpera on fire and Jaina killed more than just 3 people. Also, the Horde doesn't commit mass genocides regularly. They technically didn't even commit ONE genocide, by definition.

Yea the horde bombed a school of neutral druids, nuked a city with a WMD the proceeded to capture the survivors and pit them against each other in fights to the death, used their corpses as target dummies, or used them as throphies hanging them from spikes. Even if the last part is largely done by garrosh's true horde. The horde still had a hand in the capture.

They then proceed to burn a tree with atleast 999 people left inside (occording the alliance only quest during the war of thorns) so its likely more seeing as in game numbers are almost always lower than actual numbers, but thats up for debate.

After that they attack a town that isn't part of the alliance yet and nail people to the wall,

My point: The Horde always goes out of there way to create as mutch collatoral damage as possible with or without Sylvanas.

The alliance atleast has the common decentcy to keep collatoral damage to a minimum, even if and when they do morally wrong stuff.

To give you an example the horde acts like 'the Major in Hellsing Ultimate' trying to create as mutch death and destruction as possible, and this is accross the board from high ranking officer to the common grunt.

You can count the alliance characters that show this behavior on one hand and have fingers to spare

Also @sam86 that slaughter your talking about was during king Thoradin's reign wich was a 1000 years ago, before the alliance founded by king theranis menethil was even a thing, hell lordaeron wasn't even a thing yet.

So stop trying to scrape the barrel

[mysticx]

perhaps they're Theramore soldiers or at least some Jaina symphatizers

...or they were just tired of getting stabbed in the back by the Horde.

[Raisei]

Ah, yeas, the victims of ethno-political cleansing brought it on themselves What about "Had Jaina refused to violate Dalaran's neutrality first by aiding the Night Elves, she'd have been in the city at the time of the smuggling and there wouldn't have been an issue in the first place", hmm? Also, those quests don't refer to what the Silver Covenant goods have been doing in the sewers. And even then non-combatants have been killed on the surface as well, like the Blood Elf that tried to withdraw his assets from the bank and flee.

Since I know your stance, I am surprised you did not outright demand Jaina to send the Bell to Orgrimmar instead, because obviously she should forget that the Horde murdered her friends and destroyed her city just a week ago.
And to be clear, the crime is not that they are violating Dalaran's neutrality, which they are doing, but it is not the point. The point is that they help supply a man that has been known for using WMDs indiscriminately with another even worse WMD.
Not to mention that it was found by the Nightelves so obviously they brought it to Darnassus for study. Jaina was only there to help with that, not to use it, despite having a good reason to, the Blood Elves transported it to Garrosh knowing very well that he would use it. Both violate the neutrality, but their reasons and intentions matter a lot more then that.
But I know such deliberations are lost on you, the Alliance will always be the guilty party in your mind, no matter what the circumstances.

On top of that, it doesn't matter whether the people killed by Jaina's forces were fighting back or not, because Dalaran is ruled by the Council of Six as a whole, not the leader of the Council. The leader has so little individual power they don't even get a tie-breaker vote. Everything Jaina did during the Purge violated Dalaran's entire legal system and political structure. Which is why Jaina used Vereesa's private (and severely anti-Blood Elf) militia and Stormwind soldiers instead of the Kirin Tor to carry it out. And people have the right to defend themselves against such tyranny.

Yet it seems the Council supported her decision after the fact, since she was obviously still it's leader. If they had been against it they could have voted her out as they indirectly did in Legion. Using the Silver Covenant was simply a matter of urgency and trust. Vareesa was the one person in the city who she could absolutely be certain had not assissted the Horde in stealing the Bell, since the elf lost just as much as herself in Theramore.

I mean sure, she could have called the Council, including Aethas, explained the situation in detail, have him lie about his involvement, discuss it some more, then vote, with an uncertain result. Afterwards they could have sat on the balcony of the Citadel and listened to Garrosh laugh while using the Bell and destroying Pandaria.

Funnily enough, if Jaina was as naive as she had been before Theramore, then this is most likely what she would have done instead of seeing the urgency acting and living with the consequences to this day.

Also, as per the very same blue post that stated that Aethas stumbled upon the smuggling pointed out he had to be threatened with the fate of all Blood Elves that didn't have the privilege of hiding out in Dalaran.

Yes, Garrosh threatened people that lived on another continent then his power base. I don't know who of the two is more stupid:

Garrosh for making a threat he could never see through and that would have destroyed whatever standing he had left with the rest of the Horde or Aethas for actually believing him instead of asking the Kirin Tor for help in protecting his people.

He could have fascilitated an agreement for Dalaran to give up it's neutrality with the Blood Elves joining the Alliance (which they were talking about with Varian anyway). With his vote and Jaina's vote that's one third in favour already.

Meaning he had options and chose the easy way of silence.

[TheRevenantHero]

Yea the horde bombed a school of neutral druids, nuked a city with a WMD the proceeded to capture the survivors and pit them against each other in fights to the death, used their corpses as target dummies, or used them as throphies hanging them from spikes. Even if the last part is largely done by garrosh's true horde. The horde still had a hand in the capture.

They then proceed to burn a tree with atleast 999 people left inside (occording the alliance only quest during the war of thorns) so its likely more seeing as in game numbers are almost always lower than actual numbers, but thats up for debate.

After that they attack a town that isn't part of the alliance yet and nail people to the wall,

My point: The Horde always goes out of there way to create as mutch collatoral damage as possible with or without Sylvanas.

The alliance atleast has the common decentcy to keep collatoral damage to a minimum, even if and when they do morally wrong stuff.

To give you an example the horde acts like 'the Major in Hellsing Ultimate' trying to create as mutch death and destruction as possible, and this is accross the board from high ranking officer to the common grunt.

You can count the alliance characters that show this behavior on one hand and have fingers to spare

Also @sam86 that slaughter your talking about was during king Thoradin's reign wich was a 1000 years ago, before the alliance founded by king theranis menethil was even a thing, hell lordaeron wasn't even a thing yet.

So stop trying to scrape the barrel

No. The only reason you say that is because you're a hardcore Alliance fan and outright refuse to acknowledge alot of messed up shit the Alliance has done. I've seen you do this in numerous other threads so I'm not really going to take your comments very seriously at all.

[eurojust]

You are so incredibly wrong, it's kind of funny. The Alliance was actively lighting the fucking vulpera on fire and Jaina killed more than just 3 people. Also, the Horde doesn't commit mass genocides regularly. They technically didn't even commit ONE genocide, by definition.

Draenei, Night Elves = genocide. Also attempted genocide on the humans twice (wc1, wc2).
I could also count the Forsaken finishing what the Scourge started by killing every human left in Lordaeron.

[TheRevenantHero]

Draenei, Night Elves = genocide. Also attempted genocide on the humans twice (wc1, wc2).

Draenei were not genocided by the Horde. If you're treating Outlands as part of the Horde then that means the Alliance has committed numerous genocides as well. And attempted genocide doesn't count, otherwise we need to count all the attempted genocides the Alliance has tried.

[bowlink]

No. The only reason you say that is because you're a hardcore Alliance fan and outright refuse to acknowledge alot of messed up shit the Alliance has done. I've seen you do this in numerous other threads so I'm not really going to take your comments very seriously at all.

I make an effort to only mention things horde has done post warcraft 3 not because i don't want acknowledge that happened pre warcraft 3, but because horde players seem rather adament that thralls horde is different from orgrims horde or better yet blackhands/guldans horde. So if thats the case the alliance should be granted the same privilage, if you want to bring up every bad thing the humans have done during the warcraft lore be my guest. Just know that we will bring up every bad thing the orcs, trolls, and the rest of the horde races has done, including the path of glory in hellfire peninsula.

[eurojust]

Draenei were not genocided by the Horde. If you're treating Outlands as part of the Horde then that means the Alliance has committed numerous genocides as well. And attempted genocide doesn't count, otherwise we need to count all the attempted genocides the Alliance has tried.

"Like an elemental force of havoc and destruction we thundered through the lands of the Draenei
devastating all that we beheld. Not one life was spared. No building was left standing. The only
traces of their existence were the blood-soaked fields they had worked for nearly five thousand years
and the rank, acrid smell of the huge victory fires that consumed the bodies of their young. The
Draenei were a weak people - hardly worth the effort of our raiding sweep. In the end, however, even
these simple victories serve to keep the inferior in their place"

Please, explain to me how this isn't a genocide.

then that means the Alliance has committed numerous genocides as well

Then feel free to share them

[TheRevenantHero]

"Like an elemental force of havoc and destruction we thundered through the lands of the Draenei
devastating all that we beheld. Not one life was spared. No building was left standing. The only
traces of their existence were the blood-soaked fields they had worked for nearly five thousand years
and the rank, acrid smell of the huge victory fires that consumed the bodies of their young. The
Draenei were a weak people - hardly worth the effort of our raiding sweep. In the end, however, even
these simple victories serve to keep the inferior in their place"

Please, explain to me how this isn't a genocide.


Then feel free to share them

Because that wasn't done by the Horde. If you're going to attribute that to the Horde then the genocide of the trolls by the humans and quel'dorei counts, the genocide of the quel'dorei by Arthas counts, the genocide of the quel'dorei by Garithos counts, and the genocide of the tauren by the dwarves counts as well.

- - - Updated - - -

I make an effort to only mention things horde has done post warcraft 3 not because i don't want acknowledge that happened pre warcraft 3, but because horde players seem rather adament that thralls horde is different from orgrims horde or better yet blackhands/guldans horde. So if thats the case the alliance should be granted the same privilage, if you want to bring up every bad thing the humans have done during the warcraft lore be my guest. Just know that we will bring up every bad thing the orcs, trolls, and the rest of the horde races has done, including the path of glory in hellfire peninsula.

There's a reason I never bring up anything that happened before WC3 unless someone is specifically bringing up things like the Path of Glory and attributing it to the Horde. The Alliance has committed enough heinous acts that I don't really NEED to bring up anything pre-WC3.

[bowlink]

Because that wasn't done by the Horde. If you're going to attribute that to the Horde then the genocide of the trolls by the humans and quel'dorei counts, the genocide of the quel'dorei by Arthas counts, the genocide of the quel'dorei by Garithos counts, and the genocide of the tauren by the dwarves counts as well.

- - - Updated - - -



There's a reason I never bring up anything that happened before WC3 unless someone is specifically bringing up things like the Path of Glory and attributing it to the Horde. The Alliance has committed enough heinous acts that I don't really NEED to bring up anything pre-WC3.

Name 10 ill even help you

1: camp T
2: jaina's tantrum in dalaran
3: stormheim
4: dazar alor
5: the sabotage on quel thalas.

Ill leave the next 5 to you. And remember post Wc3

[eurojust]

Because that wasn't done by the Horde. If you're going to attribute that to the Horde then the genocide of the trolls by the humans and quel'dorei counts, the genocide of the quel'dorei by Arthas counts, the genocide of the quel'dorei by Garithos counts, and the genocide of the tauren by the dwarves counts as well.

It was directly done by the Horde, in fact it's one of the first thing the Horde does after its creation.
All of the examples you talked about are no genocide at all or don't exist save for the quel'dorei, but Arthas wasn't leading the Alliance (they were in fact undeads, mindcontrolled by an Orc).

[bowlink]

It was directly done by the Horde, in fact it's one of the first thing the Horde does after its creation.
All of the examples you talked about are no genocide at all or don't exist save for the quel'dorei, but Arthas wasn't leading the Alliance (they were in fact undeads, mindcontrolled by an Orc).

Here i do have to correct you, arthas was leading he was however folllowing ner'zuls orders

[TheRevenantHero]

Name 10 ill even help you

1: camp T
2: jaina's tantrum in dalaran
3: stormheim
4: dazar alor
5: the sabotage on quel thalas.

Ill leave the next 5 to you. And remember post Wc3

1: The dwarves wiping out an entire tauren tribe.
2: Humans torturing Horde captives in the Southern Barrens.
3: Literally everything Archbishop Benedictus did.
4: Attacking goblin refugee ships because they had the audacity to be witnesses to the humans kidnapping Thrall.
5: Murdering Horde troops who were either surrendering or unarmed in the Jade Forest.

- - - Updated - - -

It was directly done by the Horde, in fact it's one of the first thing the Horde does after its creation.
All of the examples you talked about are no genocide at all or don't exist save for the quel'dorei, but Arthas wasn't leading the Alliance (they were in fact undeads, mindcontrolled by an Orc).

No. It wasn't. Attributing the Path of Glory to the Horde is ignorant. And how are you going to say all my examples aren't genocides? The trolls were literally driven to near extinction in Arathi and have been stated as incapable of recovering. The dwarves wiped out an ENTIRE TAUREN TRIBE. Garithos went on a campaign to murder every quel'dorei he came across because he hated elves. Also, Arthas had loyalists with him that were NOT mindless undead and carried out his genocide when attacking Quel'thalas. So once again, if you're going to attribute the Path of Glory to the Horde then the Alliance has actually committed far more genocides than the Horde.