Do people genuinely think the Horde is evil?

[Dancaris]

I get that you really want to say the alliance humans are as bad as the orcs but there just isn't any thing to actually back that up. when the orcs were doing things like the path of glory they went along with it and those same orcs then join thralls horde and stay in it though all of wow. when the Kul tiran humans do something kinda close not only did the rest of the humans not go along with it they turned on the Kul tirans and let them get slaughtered, these two things really couldn't be any more day and night.

And same Kul-tirans now in Alliance. Same men that did Theramore stuff. Not even a word about that.
And same draenei that was in Draenor when Kil'Jaeden corrupted orc to kill all of his kind? Why wouldn't we talk about that?
Or, with resent actions - why attack of Dazar'Alor is not blamed? Invading horde-aligned sity that have no place at war right now to kill their king and come back. Ofc they come to Horde against Alliance. But they are just trolls, you know? Not humans, so - not count, yes?

[Nikeyla]

Well the majority decides whats normal and whats not. If 90% of playerbase is horde, you can hardly call it the evil faction. Its kinda the ok faction in this case. However Im still waiting for the main aliance leader to become the evil overlord, for a change

[eurojust]

And same Kul-tirans now in Alliance. Same men that did Theramore stuff. Not even a word about that.
And same draenei that was in Draenor when Kil'Jaeden corrupted orc to kill all of his kind? Why wouldn't we talk about that?
Or, with resent actions - why attack of Dazar'Alor is not blamed? Invading horde-aligned sity that have no place at war right now to kill their king and come back. Ofc they come to Horde against Alliance. But they are just trolls, you know? Not humans, so - not count, yes?

The Kul Tirans who attacked the Horde in Warcraft 3 were wiped out by the Horde and never came back to Kul Tiras. Also what were their crimes? Engaging the Orcs who try to genocide and conquer every month? If Daelin had succeeded, the people of Theramore would be alive.
The Orcs genocided the Draenei, not the other way around.
The Amanis helped the Horde during the "fourth war". The Horde launched attack from their to commit more crimes (see Brennadam).

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And same Kul-tirans now in Alliance. Same men that did Theramore stuff. Not even a word about that.
And same draenei that was in Draenor when Kil'Jaeden corrupted orc to kill all of his kind? Why wouldn't we talk about that?
Or, with resent actions - why attack of Dazar'Alor is not blamed? Invading horde-aligned sity that have no place at war right now to kill their king and come back. Ofc they come to Horde against Alliance. But they are just trolls, you know? Not humans, so - not count, yes?

Ya the kul tirans are a bunch of dicks but when it comes to members who took part in said acts they all died as far as I’m aware unlike the orcs. we were also talking about the stormwind humans in comparison to the orcs but if you want to say the fat humans are dicks sure I agree.

The goats are dicks to.

[InfiniteCharger]

Bottom line, what does the Horde stand for as a faction and why are all these races part of it?
And given those ideals how do their actions measure up to those ideals?
Lastly how do those actions benefit or hurt members of said faction?

All three of these are a major factor in the reasons for or against the Horde being evil.

Pound for pound, if you look at the actual actions and ideals spouted by the last few Horde leaders, they definitely aren't good.
And the most recent one outright evil. And it doesn't matter how many races joined the Horde for noble reasons.
When evil actions are committed at the behest of the leaders which causes no small amount of death and destruction, it is evil.

[Shadowferal]

Lorewise I think everything got afu after Wrath.
Battle at Wrathgate may not have had the forces of Saurfang and Fordragon holding hands singing kumbaya, but they at least knew who the enemy was.
Fordragon's fall by the forsaken traitor had Varian's racial prejudice on full display declaring war on the "monster" races at the end of the Battle of Undercity.

A balancing act needed to be written well after that. And instead Bliz decided that it was all too controversial and now that battle isn't available..and such words get never said.

[mickybrighteyes]

Lorewise I think everything got afu after Wrath.
Battle at Wrathgate may not have had the forces of Saurfang and Fordragon holding hands singing kumbaya, but they at least knew who the enemy was.
Fordragon's fall by the forsaken traitor had Varian's racial prejudice on full display declaring war on the "monster" races at the end of the Battle of Undercity.

A balancing act needed to be written well after that. And instead Bliz decided that it was all too controversial and now that battle isn't available..and such words get never said.

To be fair... that scene and entire event was likely removed due to how it was built into the undercity via phasing instead of it's own instance. Kind of... not... intelligent design and should have tossed it into an instance or something rather than gutting it entirely.

[MoFalcon]

Until I l Leveled a Horde toon, I did.

I never really played horde...until Legion. Never cared for the leveling areas, process on horde. Until i finally did it, and saw the world and story from their point of view, I didn't get it.

Now, they are just enemies, not evil. in my eyes anyway.

[qwerty123456]

And same Kul-tirans now in Alliance. Same men that did Theramore stuff. Not even a word about that.
And same draenei that was in Draenor when Kil'Jaeden corrupted orc to kill all of his kind? Why wouldn't we talk about that?
Or, with resent actions - why attack of Dazar'Alor is not blamed? Invading horde-aligned sity that have no place at war right now to kill their king and come back. Ofc they come to Horde against Alliance. But they are just trolls, you know? Not humans, so - not count, yes?

You mean a people who had in recent history attacked both the Horde and Alliance with no retaliation and then let the Horde set up shop right next to their king and treasure vault? Also who was talking about Dalaran breaking neutrality a few pages ago because they helped the Alliance? Hmmm who helped the Horde this expansion. Either you gotta let go of Dalaran or you gotta Blame the Zandalari for the consequences of their actions you can't have both.

[MikeBogina]

Until I l Leveled a Horde toon, I did.

I never really played horde...until Legion. Never cared for the leveling areas, process on horde. Until i finally did it, and saw the world and story from their point of view, I didn't get it.

Now, they are just enemies, not evil. in my eyes anyway.

when you go through and do the same quests, the same stories, does it feel weird to you? Me and friend just lvld alts(horde) and went through Stormheim, Highmountain and Valsharah.

In Stormheim, we're off to go get the Aegis to help save the world and we're attacked by the Alliance. We're there to do good, Sylvanas is there to do her thing and yet the Alliance attacked us.

Now maybe you didn't do that as a Horde player, but in Valsharah it really was funny talking about how we're riding Malfurion or Ysera, how we're working with Tyrande and helping what is clearly the Night Elves and we're running around doing all this good for this group of people.

I guess if an Alliance player did that zone, they would mistakenly think they're playing an Alliance zone, but it's a zone and story that is done by both the Horde and Alliance.

What a lot of Alliance players dont get is that we're also the heroes, we're not another faction like the Legion, Scourge, Old Gods, etc... for the Alliance to defeat, but our leaders keep getting turned into baddies and our overall story is just trash now T^T

[Soon-TM]

I'm still waiting for the main aliance leader to become the evil overlord, for a change

Sorry my dude(tte), that is simply not going to happen with massive Alliance fanbois/gurls such as Afrasiabi or Golden calling the shots.

Sure, they could have the Alliance do some really funky things, but you can bet that everything will be fine (or simply forgotten) after a fifteen minutes talk presided by the God King.

[MoFalcon]

when you go through and do the same quests, the same stories, does it feel weird to you? Me and friend just lvld alts(horde) and went through Stormheim, Highmountain and Valsharah.

In Stormheim, we're off to go get the Aegis to help save the world and we're attacked by the Alliance. We're there to do good, Sylvanas is there to do her thing and yet the Alliance attacked us.

Now maybe you didn't do that as a Horde player, but in Valsharah it really was funny talking about how we're riding Malfurion or Ysera, how we're working with Tyrande and helping what is clearly the Night Elves and we're running around doing all this good for this group of people.

I guess if an Alliance player did that zone, they would mistakenly think they're playing an Alliance zone, but it's a zone and story that is done by both the Horde and Alliance.

What a lot of Alliance players dont get is that we're also the heroes, we're not another faction like the Legion, Scourge, Old Gods, etc... for the Alliance to defeat, but our leaders keep getting turned into baddies and our overall story is just trash now T^T

exactly. this is what i meant.

[Dancaris]

You mean a people who had in recent history attacked both the Horde and Alliance with no retaliation and then let the Horde set up shop right next to their king and treasure vault? Also who was talking about Dalaran breaking neutrality a few pages ago because they helped the Alliance? Hmmm who helped the Horde this expansion. Either you gotta let go of Dalaran or you gotta Blame the Zandalari for the consequences of their actions you can't have both.

Well, Alliance put their Princess into jail as soon as they saw her. What do you expect?
And if we count Zul's forces at pandaria and cata ZulAman and ZulGurub, we should count Arthas, or Benedictus (i think i spell him correctly) as Alliance doing?
And Zandalari forces was not neutral, they wad hostile both to H and A. So its not the same.

[qwerty123456]

Well, Alliance put their Princess into jail as soon as they saw her. What do you expect?
And if we count Zul's forces at pandaria and cata ZulAman and ZulGurub, we should count Arthas, or Benedictus (i think i spell him correctly) as Alliance doing?
And Zandalari forces was not neutral, they wad hostile both to H and A. So its not the same.

Zul was the right hand of the king and the Alliance had no way of knowing he was actually betraying the Zandalari and everyone else. Also Talanji was with Zul so even if they somehow figured out Zul was the badguy and the king wasn't they had every right to detain him and for all they knew a co-conspirator.

[Dancaris]

Zul was the right hand of the king and the Alliance had no way of knowing he was actually betraying the Zandalari and everyone else. Also Talanji was with Zul so even if they somehow figured out Zul was the badguy and the king wasn't they had every right to detain him and for all they knew a co-conspirator.

So its ok to enjail someone just because some mad prophet talk about some shit with hostile amani and gurubashi? Even if they dont know that Talanji comes to Horde and not exploring, yes? Just took her to stokades, take her ship and then call zandalari hostility unprovoked, am i right?

[mysticx]

What a lot of Alliance players dont get is that we're also the heroes, we're not another faction like the Legion, Scourge, Old Gods, etc... for the Alliance to defeat, but our leaders keep getting turned into baddies and our overall story is just trash now T^T

That's the part that's difficult to make sense of, for all the good the Horde does, whenever a leader turns bad, almost the entire Horde goes "Guess we're evil now" and follows those orders to the letter, based on some inane oath from the time when the Horde was actually truly evil, bent on conquest and destruction, only a few people go "Hey, is this what we *should* be doing?", the rest just goes "The warchief said so, zug zug and junk..."

The Horde's image isn't helped by the very vocal "But i *wanna* do evil stuff!"-crowd, either.

[Raisei]

In Stormheim, we're off to go get the Aegis to help save the world and we're attacked by the Alliance. We're there to do good, Sylvanas is there to do her thing and yet the Alliance attacked us.

It's not the fault of the Alliance that Sylvanas left you in the dark about her true goals (enslaving a Titan Watcher) here though.

Now maybe you didn't do that as a Horde player, but in Valsharah it really was funny talking about how we're riding Malfurion or Ysera, how we're working with Tyrande and helping what is clearly the Night Elves and we're running around doing all this good for this group of people.

What a lot of Alliance players dont get is that we're also the heroes, we're not another faction like the Legion, Scourge, Old Gods, etc... for the Alliance to defeat, but our leaders keep getting turned into baddies and our overall story is just trash now T^T

For Legion you are correct. But that was largely because the Horde and Alliance splintered into the Class Orders and tried to safe the world, while the esteemed Horde Warchief was busy trying her best to make herself immortal so she would have an easier time murdering everybody else.

Now after Legion you would probably have found far fewer people considering the Horde evil, but as long as your leaders only have to shout "For the Horde" for you to commit atrocious crimes including outright genocide there is a problem with considering you "heroes".

If this was the first time then sure, we can say you were tricked by a charismatic leader and never knew which path he would lead you down until it was too late, but since this is the second time and we are talking Sylvanas "I eat kittens for breakfast" Windrunner.... yeah... that will not be an easy defense.

The Horde playerbase should have been outraged and demanded the removal of Sylvanas immediatedly after Teldrassil if they still wanted to be considered "Heroes", but do you remember what they did? They asked to have the option to NOT betray her, to stay loyal to the genocidal monster.

So no, at least part of the Horde is stone cold evil and the playerbase delights in it, maybe there are some "Heroes" left, but it is certainly not a "good" faction. It might become one again, but I doubt it. The playerbase is hating the good Horde leaders so much, that Blizz will have very litte choice but to put another maniac in charge soon.

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So its ok to enjail someone just because some mad prophet talk about some shit with hostile amani and gurubashi? Even if they dont know that Talanji comes to Horde and not exploring, yes? Just took her to stokades, take her ship and then call zandalari hostility unprovoked, am i right?

The mad prophet attacked Pandaria and released the Thunder King which cost many lives and nowhere was there any hint he was not doing so on orders of Rastakhan, the presence of Talanji actually makes that more likely. So yes, it was absolutely justified. The Zandalari have been hostile to everyone because they consider everyone beneath them.

And considering that the Pandaren are just as much members of the Horde as they are of the Alliance you could call it quite the dick move to ally with these guys after Zul allied with the Mogu who have been enslaving and murdering Pandaren for centuries and used them to attack the Shado-Pan, a neutral group.

Something tells me that Vol'jin would not have made that call, probably because he was actually INSIDE the Shado-Pan monastery during this attack.

[Dancaris]

It's not the fault of the Alliance that Sylvanas left you in the dark about her true goals (enslaving a Titan Watcher) here though.

But Alliance dont know her goal either. Just "see Horde -> attack Horde" thing.

The Horde playerbase should have been outraged and demanded the removal of Sylvanas immediatedly after Teldrassil

Yea, just like that. Tell them that we dont like Sylvanas, and devs redo all cinematics that were done, redo all of the stuff and 2 patches that would have been, yes? Abandon all the story, delete all Horde campaign? Delete SL exp?
Marvelous, trully marvelous.
But hey, I dont like SoO finale, can they remake cinematic with crushing Garrosh head, Thrall as Warchief and Alliance go whenever they want? Then delete WoD, Garrosh is dead - so no way to do that, yes? Lets redo like 3 expansions just because I dont like that.

- - - Updated - - -

The mad prophet attacked Pandaria and released the Thunder King which cost many lives and nowhere was there any hint he was not doing so on orders of Rastakhan, the presence of Talanji actually makes that more likely. So yes, it was absolutely justified. The Zandalari have been hostile to everyone because they consider everyone beneath them.

So we could just, you know, go and kill all of Kul-Tirans for Daelin business? There is even his wife, so its absolutely justified, yes?
And for note, they could just ask about it, before enjail, no? What have Talanji do to the Alliance? Zul could go f*ck himself, nobody care about him, but Talanji? You have absolute no rights to throw her to jail, but you refuse to admit that. Horde races - evil races. And Alliance races are good. I understand that correctly?

[MikeBogina]

It's not the fault of the Alliance that Sylvanas left you in the dark about her true goals (enslaving a Titan Watcher) here though.

Regardless of what she was after, the Alliance attacked without that information, just to kill some Horde and kill Sylvanas. You know why she's after the Valkyr? Because she saw a future where the Alliance came after her and killed the Forsaken. And to justify it, the Alliance attacked during a world ending invasion...

For Legion you are correct. But that was largely because the Horde and Alliance splintered into the Class Orders and tried to safe the world, while the esteemed Horde Warchief was busy trying her best to make herself immortal so she would have an easier time murdering everybody else.

So you haven't played Stormheim from the Horde PoV? The fleet is there to help the heroes/champYUNS get the Aegis... so no, that is not true. The reason why both factions didn't have the support of their faction... Genn Greymane...

Now after Legion you would probably have found far fewer people considering the Horde evil, but as long as your leaders only have to shout "For the Horde" for you to commit atrocious crimes including outright genocide there is a problem with considering you "heroes".

Nope, war needed to happen especially after what happened in Stormheim. Don't just get to try and assassinate a faction leader, kill a fleet of said faction and walk away.

If this was the first time then sure, we can say you were tricked by a charismatic leader and never knew which path he would lead you down until it was too late, but since this is the second time and we are talking Sylvanas "I eat kittens for breakfast" Windrunner.... yeah... that will not be an easy defense.

Except that the Alliance caused both wars to happen and just because the Warchief went bad, doesn't mean that the Alliance is innocent.
Theramore and Darnassus are the fault of Jaina and Genn

So no, at least part of the Horde is stone cold evil and the playerbase delights in it, maybe there are some "Heroes" left, but it is certainly not a "good" faction. It might become one again, but I doubt it. The playerbase is hating the good Horde leaders so much, that Blizz will have very litte choice but to put another maniac in charge soon.

This last part speaks volumes about you to be honest. A stone cold evil alliance player who delights in attacking the Horde and crying foul lol.

Anyways, as long as the Alliance doesn't attack the Horde again... again, then you wont have to see an evil horde.

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That's the part that's difficult to make sense of, for all the good the Horde does, whenever a leader turns bad, almost the entire Horde goes "Guess we're evil now" and follows those orders to the letter, based on some inane oath from the time when the Horde was actually truly evil, bent on conquest and destruction, only a few people go "Hey, is this what we *should* be doing?", the rest just goes "The warchief said so, zug zug and junk..."

The Horde's image isn't helped by the very vocal "But i *wanna* do evil stuff!"-crowd, either.

It doesn't really help that the Alliance attacks the Horde the moment a warchief is put in power, that they dont like.
Garrosh is made warchief, Alliance is already invading Horde territory and tried to kill Thrall while he's on his way to save the world.
Sylvanas is made warchief, Alliance attack the Horde fleet at Stormheim, during a world ending invasion...
There's this pattern of the Alliance picking a fight with the Horde and the Horde having a leader who doesn't put up with the that shit and then that warchief is made evil the next expansion, cause you know we have to move on somehow.

[Ardenaso]

But Alliance dont know her goal either. Just "see Horde -> attack Horde" thing.

wasn't there some text where Genn finds out what Sylvanas was up to?