Do people genuinely think the Horde is evil?

[Dancaris]

wasn't there some text where Genn finds out what Sylvanas was up to?

Just before cinematic, not at begining Stormheim. At time of attack - its "see Horde -> attack Horde" thing.

[Raisei]

Regardless of what she was after, the Alliance attacked without that information, just to kill some Horde and kill Sylvanas. You know why she's after the Valkyr? Because she saw a future where the Alliance came after her and killed the Forsaken. And to justify it, the Alliance attacked during a world ending invasion...

True, true the poor innocent Sylvanas and the poor innocent Horde. You might have forgotten, but Sylvanas and no one else is responsible for the hatred of Genn towards her. But sure, let's just forget that she murdered his people with a plague against her Warchiefs orders and murdered his son. Something she has never had to answer for in any shape or form. Genn is truely a rotten individual for blaming her for that!

So you haven't played Stormheim from the Horde PoV? The fleet is there to help the heroes/champYUNS get the Aegis... so no, that is not true. The reason why both factions didn't have the support of their faction... Genn Greymane..

Considering Sylvanas did NOTHING against the Legion after the Broken Shore and instead went out on her own quest for immortality... how exactly did that prevent her from supporting her own faction? Was she busy sulking or too afraid she might die to prevent the annihilation of "her" people?

Nope, war needed to happen especially after what happened in Stormheim. Don't just get to try and assassinate a faction leader, kill a fleet of said faction and walk away.

Yet this is what the Horde has done several times over and then they make sad faces, blame their respective Warchief and demand to be forgiven. After the crimes Sylvanas has commited in her undead existence, she does not get to play the victim card. "Oh dear me, I was just trying to steal the power of a Titan Watcher and this beast Genn Greymane attacked me!! Whatever have I done to him!?"

Except that the Alliance caused both wars to happen and just because the Warchief went bad, doesn't mean that the Alliance is innocent.
Theramore and Darnassus are the fault of Jaina and Genn

Right, so much for sensible conversation I guess. Not gonna bother with the rest then. If you honestly blame Genn for the genocide that happened at Teldrassil then you obviously crafted an elaborate headcanon and there is no way for facts to pierce that. Probably next you will tell us that the Draenei are responsible for their own genocide too.

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wasn't there some text where Genn finds out what Sylvanas was up to?

You find out about in Azshara where a ship of the Banshee sunk. Which is chronologically set before the attack on Stormheim. But you can bet that the Horde folks will now deny that.

- - - Updated - - -

But Alliance dont know her goal either. Just "see Horde -> attack Horde" thing.

That's why she was jailed and not executed on the spot. You do that when you think someone might be a danger to your people, ya know?

Yea, just like that. Tell them that we dont like Sylvanas, and devs redo all cinematics that were done, redo all of the stuff and 2 patches that would have been, yes? Abandon all the story, delete all Horde campaign? Delete SL exp?
Marvelous, trully marvelous.

That cute attack would work a lot better if the Devs had not immediatedly reacted to the complaints of the Sylvanas fanboys and put in the loyalist questline including a cinematic...
But no, that was not what I meant. I know they wouldn't change the main story, but the Horde actually coming out and saying they denounce Sylvanas would have been a great sign. Yet, the only thing we heard was why Sylvanas was justified in everything she did and that people wanted to marry their undead queen of darkness. In short a huge part of the Horde was completely fine being the bad guys again, they loved it.

So we could just, you know, go and kill all of Kul-Tirans for Daelin business? There is even his wife, so its absolutely justified, yes?

1) Talanji wasn't killed, not even Zul was, despite him deserving it.
2) You might have missed this, but the modern Alliance has condemnd Daelins actions, his own daughter allowed him to be killed to safe your Horde.
3) You tried. Repeatedly. Forgot Brennadan already and the other attempts to plague bomb the island?

And for note, they could just ask about it, before enjail, no? What have Talanji do to the Alliance? Zul could go f*ck himself, nobody care about him, but Talanji? You have absolute no rights to throw her to jail, but you refuse to admit that. Horde races - evil races. And Alliance races are good. I understand that correctly?

Talanji was the princess of the Zandalari. A people that have repeatedly attacked both factions. But sure let's just ask nicely if they tell us of their next evil plans, they will definately tell the truth! Are you actually kidding me?

[Verdugo]

You find out about in Azshara where a ship of the Banshee sunk. Which is chronologically set before the attack on Stormheim. But you can bet that the Horde folks will now deny that.

1.) Source on it being chronologicaly earlier please
2.) Horde can also retrieve it

[Raisei]

Thanks for proving my point.

1.) Source on it being chronologicaly earlier please

Logic and common sense. You bring the information to Greymane, who does not make any alusions that he had already attacked the Banshee or that he knows what she was up to, which he should if this was after Stormheim oh and he should probably have some problem with that arrow in his chest. But don't worry, I don't expect you to accept this.
I know accepting that would throw quite the wrench into this whole "Genn started the war" story the Horde has been using to defend Sylvanas.

Out of interest, what is your source for this NOT being the chronological order of events?

[StillMcfuu]

Horde being evil... no not really. I also don’t think the Alliance is good either. As with all things “one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.”

[Verdugo]

Logic and common sense.

Logic and common sense long abandoned Blizzard.

Out of interest, what is your source for this NOT being the chronological order of events?

You are the one who made a claim.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The mad prophet attacked Pandaria and released the Thunder King which cost many lives and nowhere was there any hint he was not doing so on orders of Rastakhan, the presence of Talanji actually makes that more likely. So yes, it was absolutely justified. The Zandalari have been hostile to everyone because they consider everyone beneath them.

And considering that the Pandaren are just as much members of the Horde as they are of the Alliance you could call it quite the dick move to ally with these guys after Zul allied with the Mogu who have been enslaving and murdering Pandaren for centuries and used them to attack the Shado-Pan, a neutral group.

Something tells me that Vol'jin would not have made that call, probably because he was actually INSIDE the Shado-Pan monastery during this attack.

The panaren already knew that zul was acting on his on lore walker cho has a whole bit about them breaking off from the king they have no reason to hold a grudge against the empire as a whole and zul goes rouge again and acts against the king way before the zandalari join the horde so they have no reason to be against them joining after zul is dead.

[Raisei]

The panaren already knew that zul was acting on his on lore walker cho has a whole bit about them breaking off from the king

Fine, that still does not prove that Talanji wasn't in cahoots with him though. If he was going rogue, why did she not adress this? Why was she fine traveling with him?

they have no reason to hold a grudge against the empire as a whole and zul goes rouge again and acts against the king way before the zandalari join the horde so they have no reason to be against them joining after zul is dead.

By the time Zul betrays the Zandalari again, they had already given shelter to the Banshee and the Horde, even if they did not join them yet. There needs to be no grudge against the empire if they purposefully ally with war criminals.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Fine, that still does not prove that Talanji wasn't in cahoots with him though. If he was going rogue, why did she not adress this? Why was she fine traveling with him?



By the time Zul betrays the Zandalari again, they had already given shelter to the Banshee and the Horde, even if they did not join them yet. There needs to be no grudge against the empire if they purposefully ally with war criminals.

He went rogue then came back and said he was sorry and started playing the adviser rolls Talanji had nothing to address as Zandalar really didn’t care what he did on his vacation and had no responsibility towards it.

And ya they shelter the horde but I’m talking about the pandaren opinion not the alliance.

[Rendark]

This entire thread is mostly just GRRR! HORDE BAD! and GRRR! ALIIANCE BAD TOO! and my side is betterer then your side.

[adcesamo]

After all that happened so far, what else could we think?

I could ask do people genuinely think that the Horde actions are justifiable? but I think that it is moving the goalpost so just ignore me (and the thread showed me that a lot of people try their best to justify genocide and WMD).

[Combatbutler]

This entire thread is mostly just GRRR! HORDE BAD! and GRRR! ALIIANCE BAD TOO! and my side is betterer then your side.

Both sides suck for various reasons. So in essence Horde and Alliance are garbage, just my two cents.

[Shadowferal]

Yeah, burning Teldrassil was justified.../s
Was there ever an equal response by the Alliance?

[Eggroll]

It's that way because this is a faction based game that has to try to appease both sides of the coin. If it were not, there is no reason the Horde wouldn't have been wiped off the map multiple times in the last several expansions.

UC could have been leveled at the end of Wrathgate
Orgrimmar could have been leveled at the end of SoO.
The Vindicaar could have destroyed anything from low orbit since it's arrived in the game.

It must have slipped my attention buth WHEN exactly has the story tried to appease nelf players?
And yes, the Vindicaar should have destroyed the Horde assault on Darnassus from low orbit.. but why didn't those lazy spacegoats do it?

[Overlord Anrakyr]

Warchief: we're gonna kill a lot of innocent people. Blood and thunder!
Orcs: YES! BATTLE! KILL!
Trolls: We don't be caring, mon.
Goblins: We will kill anyone for a price.
Forsaken: We will kill anyone.
Tauren: Moo.
Blood elves: Now, now, let's be reasonable.
Warchief: You said something?
Blood elves: Actually no. Please, do carry on.

[Eggroll]

Funny @ OP

So you want to be a bad ass genocider, burning almost the entire population of a faction capital to a crisp, cheering for it and then also want to be called the good guy afterwards...

It's almost like you want to have your cake and eat it, too

[Shadowferal]

Teldrassil and Gilneas...seriously.
Had the Horde publicly burned Sylvanus' body to ashes...might have gone a little way to addressing the unequal response.

[Feanoro]

Yeah, burning Teldrassil was justified.../s
Was there ever an equal response by the Alliance?

Does it count when Anduin stomps his allies' faces as he runs to eulogize the Butcher of Ashenvale?

Equal response, hah. Alliance slaps wrists, Horde kills everything with a bloodlust to make the Legion blush and they'd salt the earth afterwards if they knew about that.

[Dancaris]

with a bloodlust to make the Legion blush

Well, well, well. Here we go. Now Horde is worse than Legion, am I right? Then goodbye Alli fanboys, that thread was not fun at all.

[mickybrighteyes]

Thanks for proving my point.



Logic and common sense. You bring the information to Greymane, who does not make any alusions that he had already attacked the Banshee or that he knows what she was up to, which he should if this was after Stormheim oh and he should probably have some problem with that arrow in his chest. But don't worry, I don't expect you to accept this.
I know accepting that would throw quite the wrench into this whole "Genn started the war" story the Horde has been using to defend Sylvanas.

Out of interest, what is your source for this NOT being the chronological order of events?

the fact that there's no proof of how it interacts with the faction mirrored quest given how both sides are taking the same info via the same object. And then the issue that zone canon order is still a vague mess with at least 4 variaionts on what might be a canon order. I.e. interview with arrow going through stormheim first.... proff quests leading you to some zones (not all go to azsuna first), old ilvl information on end of zone rewards or requirement for group vs no group to complete zone storyline.

So, common sense can logically point out multiple reasons why the chronological sequence doens't make sense. Also there still remains the fact that this isn't a quest that directs you into the area...

Another odd point is that if Azsuna is first, why are alliance already killing of forsaken sailors without reason when we're showing up in broken isles all doing thigns and this is something that is more evident before you stumble upon the wreck in the first place.