Do people genuinely think the Horde is evil?

[Dancaris]

Pff? Sylvanas bootlickers are still at it even at start of SL? What a surprise. Your old bro Danuser would be so proud. Does she have some pheromones on those boots or something?

There's a solution to your "but he attacked muh warchief" problem: stop electing evilshit massmurderers - they tend to attract attacks from forces of good for some mysterious reason. Problem solved.

Heh, forces of good, yea. Its 26th page of alliance bullshiting and nitpicking facts, that all.



And for some imperialistic dude likely from Russia, you cant talk about electing evilshit massmurderers.

Infracted.

[dope_danny]

Remember the civilians taken as mindslaves in Vanilla? The horde were always the bad guys.

[Caradras]

Yes, the horde is evil. Back in warcraft 3 it wasnt but with adding the forsaken and with garrosh and sylvanas recently they have become evil.

[Valandale]

For a good while it wasn't, then Garrosh came along and they stumbled but looked to be going in the right direction, and then Sylvanas took power and they all just kinda rolled with it despite the Forsaken's reputation, the fact that the Royal Apothecary society never stopped working on their plague seems to fairly well known if not obvious following the Battle for Undercity, and lots of exceedingly questionable decisions (Brennadam, Derek Proudmoore, raising the dead in Darkshore; something most horde races supposedly abhor, mass targetedcivilian deaths) even after Teldrassil which could have been construed as them not knowing how strong azerite was or how fast the tree would burn. But the campaigns afterwards, and the horde in them reveling in the slaughter, yeah... the players may not be evil (most of them anyway), but the writers are certainly doing their best to make the Horde NPC's weak-willed or downright happy to go along with an overly brutal war. There was not nearly enough framing to showcase dissent amongst Sylvanas' forces, and they state she has overwhelming support, but don't explain why, because so much of what she has the Horde do should be against the majority of the factions ethos and sensibilities, especially since it's been less than a decade since Garrosh, (and you know, less than a year since the goddamn Burning Legion invaded, when both factions armies were supposedly exhausted fighting THAT off.).

[kaelix1]

I don't know where to put the horde honestly, instead of calling the horde evil, I would say they have a bad habit of choosing the wrong warchief (the irony with the name is amusing), my lore is definitely rusty with all the change they made but I would not call blood elves/Taurens/Pandas/troll evils, I don't remember them doing something worst than any alliance race, for orcs I would put them more in a sheep like category as they seem to follow the orders without a question, goblins are just greedy, I would not call them evil, as for undead, I have a hard time calling them evil consider their history

Horde had the habit of choosing the wrong leader after Thrall, I'm confident to say that with Thrall as a leader the horde/alliance war would have stopped a long time ago , some conflicts there and there sure, but not a total war

[Shadowferal]

Heh, forces of good, yea. Its 26th page of alliance bullshiting and nitpicking facts, that all.



And for some imperialistic dude likely from Russia, you cant talk about electing evilshit massmurderers.

Yeah...Gilneas and Teldrassil are nit picks.

[Darth-Piekus]

Yeah...Gilneas and Teldrassil are nit picks.

At this point I think that some people are really desperate. They like Sylvannas,Nathanos or /Insert Evil Character because that character causes drama to the rest of Azeroth and they feed from drama. All they want is to bring down the rest to their level.

[Boo Radley]

I love these threads, they always point out who is capable of thinking even .05% below the surface level, and who isnt.

No the horde isnt evil. No the alliance isnt good. They, as all sentient life, exists in shades of gray. Maybe 49 of them. Maybe even 51 of them.

Ex. in the pandaren starter area a human threatens to enslave a Tauren and his group. In Stormwind we hear of the new "enhanced interrogation" deal, the multiple times they've lost control of characters to bloodlust/vengance (Dont people say that's supposed to be a horde thing?) the alliance repeatedly dirties its hands in some despicable stuff. But clandestinely. The horde has had more overt issues with it, cackling villains and all. Who are always opposed and overthrown by the more order-oriented members of the faction.

As a historian studying WWI, you see lots of parallels to real life in that nations (races in game) stick to allies who do things they disagree with for their immediate safety. The Tauren are probably the single most noble/altruistic race in the game, but are relatively small population wise and would be swallowed up quickly if they went to become an independent state. Baine has said many times that he felt trapped with Garrosh for the good/safety of Thunder Bluff's citizens. Lorthemar is the same with the undead- elves are by no means squeaky clean but the undead are walking war crimes. The elves lost 90% of their population in one attack though, so they are willing to compromise their ideals for security behind an army of shambling corpses.

The Tauren and Night Elves have so much in common you think they would stay together, much like the Slavs and (slavic)Russians in our world but because of the power structures in the area they were drawn to, previous loyalties, ambitions for their own gains, safety and because of the entangled nature of existing structures they were forced to go a direction they may not have wanted to or agreed with because of it. Once things begin it is natural to follow the pattern set for you and double down on coming out victorious.

Realistically you would see things more like this if it were about where they stand ideologically: Human, Tauren, Night Elf, draenei, shaman orcs vs Undead, worgen, troll, demon orcs vs gnome, dwarf, blood elf, goblin, pandaren.

Basically order vs destruction/blood frenzy vs neutral/mercantile. The reason certain stories work in the game is the same reason all sitcoms follow the same basic cast structure- the variance allows any story to happen without having an implicit, predictable nature. For reference there's always an everyman, a dumb one, an "easy" one (doesnt have to always be sex) and a wildcard that lets impractical things happen. For patricians out there who are familiar with The Golden Girls, in order that's Dorothy, Rose, Blanche and Sophia. You will find it in every show, including Always Sunny in Philadelphia where they rapidly cycle between who is which for some odd reason.

Now, as for blizzards writing on specific points I cant really speak to that as its...pretty bad.

[Verdugo]

At this point I think that some people are really desperate. They like Sylvannas,Nathanos or /Insert Evil Character because that character causes drama to the rest of Azeroth and they feed from drama. All they want is to bring down the rest to their level.

Not everyone can feed off boredom.

[Shadowferal]

Not everyone can feed off boredom.

The post above yours does seem to illustrate that.

- - - Updated - - -

I love these threads, they always point out who is capable of thinking even .05% below the surface level, and who isnt.

No the horde isnt evil. No the alliance isnt good. They, as all sentient life, exists in shades of gray. Maybe 49 of them. Maybe even 51 of them.
.

O look...pretending to condescend for justifying the destruction of two capital cities...you're obviously not a fan of the Alliance.
The horde is judged by actions, not obfuscating bullshit.
Maybe when the Alliance responds in an equitable manner...

[Talrath]

Meh, what would you call a faction that has committed horrendious warcrimes multiple times.

[Feanoro]

For the "Ackshually, it's Alliance's fault!" folks:

[Toho]

I love these threads, they always point out who is capable of thinking even .05% below the surface level, and who isnt.

No the horde isnt evil. No the alliance isnt good. They, as all sentient life, exists in shades of gray. Maybe 49 of them. Maybe even 51 of them.

I will take $500 for False Equivalency Alex.

ps. Rip Alex.

[MikeBogina]

True, true the poor innocent Sylvanas and the poor innocent Horde. You might have forgotten, but Sylvanas and no one else is responsible for the hatred of Genn towards her. But sure, let's just forget that she murdered his people with a plague against her Warchiefs orders and murdered his son. Something she has never had to answer for in any shape or form. Genn is truely a rotten individual for blaming her for that!

Yeah Genn wasn't apart of the Alliance, and she saw a future where she wasn't there where Garrosh's incompetence caused the Forsaken's veterans to die and then the Alliance sieged the Forsaken... all without her being involved... but you know, Gilneas wasn't apart of the Alliance so who cares.

Considering Sylvanas did NOTHING against the Legion after the Broken Shore and instead went out on her own quest for immortality... how exactly did that prevent her from supporting her own faction? Was she busy sulking or too afraid she might die to prevent the annihilation of "her" people?

Love that what you replied to didn't have anything about Sylvanas, kinda hung up on her. Go back and reread what you quoted please.

Also what did Genn do the for the rest of the expansion...?

Yet this is what the Horde has done several times over and then they make sad faces, blame their respective Warchief and demand to be forgiven. After the crimes Sylvanas has commited in her undead existence, she does not get to play the victim card. "Oh dear me, I was just trying to steal the power of a Titan Watcher and this beast Genn Greymane attacked me!! Whatever have I done to him!?"

Except no, a lot of horde players didn't agree with it until Blizzard forces the Warchief to go after some evil powers. Literally everything Garrosh and Sylvanas did to the Alliance was justified. Try to actually construct an argument if you disagree, but I doubt that will happen.

Right, so much for sensible conversation I guess. Not gonna bother with the rest then. If you honestly blame Genn for the genocide that happened at Teldrassil then you obviously crafted an elaborate headcanon and there is no way for facts to pierce that. Probably next you will tell us that the Draenei are responsible for their own genocide too.

pffft sensible conversation when when you go on about "Hahaha horde evil" without any sensible argument. I'm glad if you dont respond anymore, it would be you just saying the same nonsense over and over anyways.

You find out about in Azshara where a ship of the Banshee sunk. Which is chronologically set before the attack on Stormheim. But you can bet that the Horde folks will now deny that.

That's some headcanon you got right there. Here's something that you Alliance players like to ignore that is canon, The Alliance in Stormheim dont realize what Sylvanas is after until the very end and even then Genn says he doesn't care, he just wants revenge.

There, enjoy spinning some lies about that

[Raisei]

Except no, a lot of horde players didn't agree with it until Blizzard forces the Warchief to go after some evil powers. Literally everything Garrosh and Sylvanas did to the Alliance was justified. Try to actually construct an argument if you disagree, but I doubt that will happen.

Just wanted to highlight this. You are literally saying Sylvanas unprovoked murder of thousands of civilians was justified and when Garrosh captured Theramore refugees, tortured them to death and displayed them as his own little Path of Glory that was justified too.

... wow.

I mean... really?

Thanks. I don't need any more arguments showing that the Horde is evil when you are literally justifying genocide and the brutal murder of helpless civilians. If you honestly believe those are not evil acts then I don't know what to tell you, except things that would earn me an infraction.

pffft sensible conversation when when you go on about "Hahaha horde evil" without any sensible argument. I'm glad if you dont respond anymore, it would be you just saying the same nonsense over and over anyways.

I suppose only "Horde is innocent lalala" is a sensible argument to you? Also I choose when and to whom I respond. Can't waste hours of my lifetime on each of you.

It's not like I am going to be able to change the mind of someone who considers genocide an acceptable and justified action anyway.

[tommyhil622]

At this point I think that some people are really desperate. They like Sylvannas,Nathanos or /Insert Evil Character because that character causes drama to the rest of Azeroth and they feed from drama. All they want is to bring down the rest to their level.

The issue is that this thread reached an impasse before being posted. Some pose it as an alliance vs horde players thread but it isn't. I play on the horde side and i don't need 26 pages to determine what's wrong or what's right. Nor i need to justify them. The issue here is neither faction are evil imo. I think Sylvanas is pure evil and her motivations are clear now. Her actions arent justifiable period. Now does that make the Horde evil? No. Many of the evil acts are actions committed by her and most of her closest followers. Most of the horde did not have a hand in those actions. And we can throw the baby and the bathwater. Being part of the Horde doesn't make you evil. This discussion should be more of asking whether Sylvanas is evil and that is easy to answer.

Context is BFA.

[Shadowferal]

"We were just following orders," has never been a good defense.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

As a Horde player, the Horde is pretty unambiguously evil.

• Draenor: banded together and genocided Draenor, nearly wiping out the Draenei and using their bones as pavement. Sacrificed people.

• Warcraft 1 and 2: after destroying their home planet, they decide to raid another planet to repeat the process. Once again they murder everything in their path and wind up destroying 4 out of 7 human kingdoms. They are only barely stopped by the combined might of the Alliance, and had the horde not been stopped, every non-Orc race in the Eastern Kingdoms would have been wiped out.

• Warcraft 3: beginning of Thrall's Horde. Okay, getting better.

• Vanilla: introduces Rend Blackhand's Dark Horde, aka the holdouts of the Warcraft 1 and 2 Horde. Not a good look for the Orcs. Thrall's Horde is tainted by the inclusion of the Forsaken, who commit live experimentation upon Alliance captives ala Nazi and Imperial Japan's Unit 731. Not a good look for the Horde as a whole.

• Burning Crusade: introduces the Fel Horde, aka more holdouts of the Warcraft 1 and 2 Horde. Not a good look for the Orcs. Also, Thrall's Horde now includes the Blood Elves, who literally slaved and tortured a Naaru, and had to be redeemed by the Alliance. Not a good look for Thrall's Horde.

• Wrath of the Lich King: radicalization of Thrall's Horde begins with Garrosh and the Warsong Clan and the Kor'Kron. The Forksaken start milling blight to be used on the Alliance. Not a good look for Thrall's Horde.

• Due to public pressure that longs for war with the Alliance, and the radicalization of the Horde, Thrall hands leadership of the Horde to warmongers. Thrall's "good" Horde is pretty much thrown out of the window completely. Also, the Horde now includes the Bilgewater Cartel, who engage in trafficking and slavery. Also, the Forsaken begin an unprovoked invasion of Gilneas and gassing the land as they throw a "if I can't have it, no one can" temper tantrum. They even raise humans, and then force the humans to either join Sylvanas in killing more humans, or then kill them again. Freaking evil.

• Mists of Pandaria: the Horde consistently trashes Pandaria while the Alliance consistently builds up and protects Pandaria. Also the ending pays lip service to the idea of Thrall's honorable Horde, but no reform is done and the Horde reverts back to his evil modus operandi again in a few years.

• Warlords: nothing happened on Azeroth. Vol'jin's tenure as Warchief constituted... showing up at your garrison to give you a pat on the back.

• Legion: Sylvanas of all people is made Warchief. Predictably the Horde is evil again. Sylvanas' very first act as Warchief is to invade Stormheim and enslave Valkyr, also begin colluding with satan.

• Before the Storm: again more throwing a temper tantrum and murdering humans who have no desire to be evil who aren't even actually a threat to you.

• BFA: lolol

I signed up to play as Thrall's Horde; a family of honorable savages seeking to overcome their grim past. Unfortunately that characterization was swept away starting with Cata. For most of the Horde's existence in lore, it has been an evil, genocidal institution.

The Horde has cool aesthetics but you could never, ever claim that the Horde or the Alliance are morally equivalent. The Alliance always has had the moral highground to the Horde.

[Manariel]

So far, yes, the Horde is evil, and you have tobe blind to not see it. The saddest part is that, baring the Forsaken, it shouldn't have been that hard to make it not happens. Even while keeping the orcs as savages and war-like. I mean, a little French RPG Studio managed to do it by giving them nuance, philosophical interpretations of violence and a set of simple rules about what orcish honor is in their universe (you don't make slave, you don't hurt those who can't be a danger, etc. Very basic). How come Blizzard never managed to do so ?

My guess would be that the nostalgia for the WCI and II Horde, who was just evil lingered when they created WoW and they didn't want a one faction on Kalimdor with the Horde, the Alliance Expedition and the Night Elves thrown together. So they rekindled the two Factions but they never gave them a solid foundation, especially the Horde. What is the so called Honor of the orcs ? We don't know. We don't know because Blizzard uses the word but never define it.

It's a shame because the orcs were for the longest time the face of the Horde and they basically required the Taurens to be their moral compass, but the Taurens were never allowed to step up and put a stop to the clowneries of the orcs.

The Forsaken only compounded those problems but even without them, the Horde would have ended evil considering how poorly Blizzard set up their moral codes.

[mickybrighteyes]

As a Horde player, the Horde is pretty unambiguously evil.

• Draenor: banded together and genocided Draenor, nearly wiping out the Draenei and using their bones as pavement. Sacrificed people.

Draenei, a foreign species that showed up and with their arrival also brought the legion to Draenor that took over and covnerted the orcs into the Draneei genociding force we all recognize today. But we don't talk about Velen knowing this would happen when he lead his people here.

• Warcraft 1 and 2: after destroying their home planet, they decide to raid another planet to repeat the process. Once again they murder everything in their path and wind up destroying 4 out of 7 human kingdoms. They are only barely stopped by the combined might of the Alliance, and had the horde not been stopped, every non-Orc race in the Eastern Kingdoms would have been wiped out.

Might be forgetting that this was another act pushed for as a last line of defense against some chipper invaders from azeroth. I Really a case of two wrongs don't make a right but still will get mentioned as a mark against the horde despite it being incredibly NOT the horde in the game today. They haven't retconned Gul'dan's draenor horde post dark portal closing as making it into the main universe horde in any capacity.

• Vanilla: introduces Rend Blackhand's Dark Horde, aka the holdouts of the Warcraft 1 and 2 Horde. Not a good look for the Orcs. Thrall's Horde is tainted by the inclusion of the Forsaken, who commit live experimentation upon Alliance captives ala Nazi and Imperial Japan's Unit 731. Not a good look for the Horde as a whole.

Rend's horde is also not the horde in question. And humans are also conducting live experimentation as well in their own camps... but yeah lets include Blackhands horde as proof of taint for Thrall's horde.

• Burning Crusade: introduces the Fel Horde, aka more holdouts of the Warcraft 1 and 2 Horde. Not a good look for the Orcs. Also, Thrall's Horde now includes the Blood Elves, who literally slaved and tortured a Naaru, and had to be redeemed by the Alliance. Not a good look for Thrall's Horde.

more not horde as proof of Thrall's horde... this is showing a trend and poor thinking skills. Also the Naaru story kind of flips when the Naaru let it happen and was a literal "jesus" trope

• Wrath of the Lich King: radicalization of Thrall's Horde begins with Garrosh and the Warsong Clan and the Kor'Kron. The Forksaken start milling blight to be used on the Alliance. Not a good look for Thrall's Horde.

Finally a valid shot at Thrall's horde. Good job.

• Due to public pressure that longs for war with the Alliance, and the radicalization of the Horde, Thrall hands leadership of the Horde to warmongers. Thrall's "good" Horde is pretty much thrown out of the window completely. Also, the Horde now includes the Bilgewater Cartel, who engage in trafficking and slavery. Also, the Forsaken begin an unprovoked invasion of Gilneas and gassing the land as they throw a "if I can't have it, no one can" temper tantrum. They even raise humans, and then force the humans to either join Sylvanas in killing more humans, or then kill them again. Freaking evil.

interesting how we have only one point of "unprovoked" conflict here.

• Mists of Pandaria: the Horde consistently trashes Pandaria while the Alliance consistently builds up and protects Pandaria. Also the ending pays lip service to the idea of Thrall's honorable Horde, but no reform is done and the Horde reverts back to his evil modus operandi again in a few years.

Both factions are botching up Pandaria. In fact this is the one time BOTH sides are shown being asshats whether it's children hostages, or disturbing the Sha

• Legion: Sylvanas of all people is made Warchief. Predictably the Horde is evil again. Sylvanas' very first act as Warchief is to invade Stormheim and enslave Valkyr, also begin colluding with satan.

And first act for the 7th legion under orders of the new high king... was... to forget those orders and immediately attack unprovoked.

• Before the Storm: again more throwing a temper tantrum and murdering humans who have no desire to be evil who aren't even actually a threat to you.

Before the storm is actually a better case for the horde reacting to the alliance. Anduin sending military forces to force his agenda in silithus. Magni asserting what the horde should do. Calia trying to turn forsaken people against Sylvanas... IT really only works to point out how horrible the horde is when you remove context and focus on deaths only.

Hell Magni showing up is weird because he's a former king of the alliance... but we're supposed to forget that while he's borderline making demands of a nation he was at war with not even a decade back.