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  1. #61
    Brewmaster Ticj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Storm Peaks is the epitome of mediocre zone design though. Just sheer cliffs surrounding disjointed, generic flat areas.
    I disagree with this, not every part of a zone needs to be interesting. Generic flat areas help separate things and adds a sense of scale, something that is severely lacking in newer zones.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by LeifErikson View Post
    Are we speaking German or English? Please tell me. I don't care how Germans quote, if you are speaking (typing) English you should use their grammar rules. End of the matter.
    i have completely no clue what for a strange person you are. but you asked for this, a few posts above:

    What the hell are you talking about? Please, tell me a language where you use quotation marks like this: ,,". If you don't know what you're talking about, please just don't say anything. It's better that way.
    and the guy above give you the answer. by „telling you that languages“. and now you are talking about „blah blah english blah blah“... WTF

    whats wrong with you? hell, you got it that fast on my ignore list, than nobody before.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2020-10-26 at 02:58 AM.

  3. #63
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Are a lot of the “no flying” purists feeling personally attacked, or something? There’s a lot of negativity in this thread.

    Zones with the size and ambition of storm peaks haven’t been seen since cataclysm, because MoP was facultatively designed to not require flying until max level, meaning none of the leveling zones (which was all of them) could have anywhere that was not easily traversable on foot. Which is why a zone like kun’lai summit, or later zones like spires of arak, that are supposed to be mountainous are just utterly dwarfed by the scope of storm peaks.

    Blizzard’s hard line of “no flying until partway through the expansion; we’ll tell you when and also be sure to do all these grinds for it” and the small but vocal group of players that hold that flying is the reason a game they’ve been playing for 15+ years isn’t as exciting anymore has severely limited blizzard’s effective parameters for designing zones and it shows. Even if the new zones are the most aesthetically intricate and beautiful zones they’ve ever made, they’ll ALWAYS be unable to go as far as they could, and with no flying the further they do push zones the more annoying they become to traverse, swiftly overshadowing the interest and aesthetic quality of the zone.

    If content is fun and engaging, players will do it regardless of flying. If it’s not engaging or fun, then making it artificially take longer by removing flying isn’t making people enjoy anything more; it’s just making a tedious task more annnoying.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
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    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  4. #64
    Emptiness. That's what comes to my mind when I think about Stotm Peaks. Definitely not something that I would like to see returning. I pefer the level designs of MoP onwards.

  5. #65
    I am Murloc! Kuja's Avatar
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    They don't like the idea of zones requiring flying since implementing pathfinder.

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  6. #66
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiroh View Post
    Emptiness. That's what comes to my mind when I think about Stotm Peaks. Definitely not something that I would like to see returning. I pefer the level designs of MoP onwards.
    I believe that's far more an effect of what they were technically capable of designing using the tools they had and what computers were generally capable of, rather than an effect of the actual zone's scale.

    And it's not like MoP zones weren't "empty." Townlong steppes, for example, is just huge stretches of nadda; probably one of the least memorable zones in the game. Kun'lai summit has lots of wide open areas of nothing in particular.

    Storm peaks, made with today's level of detail, designed with flying in mind? Now that would be a zone to behold.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Just leveled through The Storm Peaks. It was awesome. It feels like a Giant Ice World and the way that flying is integrated into the zone is amazing. Blizzard should in my opinion make more zones like The Storm Peaks based on flying.

    Agree.. disagree?
    I agree, but first we need to go away from "open world instance" concept, we have since end of MOP. I.e. when open world itself is dead, players don't have freedom of movement and have to do content "on a rail", like in 5ppls/raids.

    Overall Blizzard think, that "big location with flying" and "small location without flying" are mathematically equal. So why should they "waste" their time on making bigger location then? Their goal still isn't to make fun game. Their goal - is to provide so called "content", i.e. consume our time. They think, that when players have flying, then their play time HAVE TO BE STRETCHED VIA LONG DISTANCES TO FLY. And they think, that it's unnecessary thing. They think, that it's better to make locations "packed" and stretch players' time vie more "interesting" things, like walls of constantly respawning mobs or artificial obstacles, you have to go around, like mountains. This produces more so called "content" with much lesser effort. They just don't understand, that flying isn't only about time consumption. It's about freedom of choice to do content, as player wants, not as he is forced to do. If he don't want to kill mobs/rares, then may it's not interesting for him? May be it's not rewarding enough? For example when you waste 10 minutes to kill elite mob and he still gives you exactly the same gray guts.

    Flying is very important for me. It gives me freedom of choice to play as I like. But problem with current game isn't with lack of flying only. 8.2 and 8.3 have shown, that content can be terrible even with flying. So, overall problem isn't with lack of flying itself. It's with trying to make game more and more hardcore. I.e. with catering to players, who say, that "easy" content is "boring" and ask to make it more "challenging". It's just so bad, when content is designed around guys, who do Mythic+ and Mythic raids, get top raiding gear and then all of a sudden outdoor becomes way too "easy" for them. While outdoor can be the only accessible content for low tier players, like new players, alts or just casual players, who don't think, that Mythics are worth doing them. Blizzard just destroy content for them. And they lose players as result.

    Another thing - is so called "interaction" between players, that should be forced according to Blizzard. One of those big Ion's misconceptions. My motto is - "If player likes something - he'll find way to do it". If players don't do things, when they aren't forced to, then may be this things aren't so important for them, as they claim?

    Overall all of this things turn this game into "game at the barrel of a gun". I personally don't like this concept. It puts too much stress on me. So I prefer to play other games instead.

  8. #68
    Was probably my least favorite in LK cause without flying it was a nightmare to navigate and quest hubs were to spread out. Loved the theme hated the execution.
    "I'm Tru @ w/e I do" ~ TM

  9. #69
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tru View Post
    Was probably my least favorite in LK cause without flying it was a nightmare to navigate and quest hubs were to spread out. Loved the theme hated the execution.
    Without flying it was impossible to navigate. You literally could not traverse past the cliff face in the south of the zone to access the north of the zone. And before anyone brings it up, no, no amount of clever wall climbing or circumventing would get you over it on foot.

    But that's because the zone was designed around flying. You could fly in northrend at level 77, and if you couldn't afford cold weather flying (I think it was 1000 gold? I don't recall) there were loaner mounts you could get for storm peaks and icecrown to get around.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  10. #70
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    Storm Peaks to me is atmospherically one of the better zones in the game and I still vividly remember the questline at the bottom of the first mountain plane where the goblins were sacrificing themselves to give you time.

    I don't think from a design standpoint that the zone was one of the better questing zones though. It was relatively jarring to traverse prior to flying and wasn't exactly easy to navigate (which is fine). Unless you absolutely detest snow zones, it's easily one of the more atmospheric zones in the game, and absolutely makes the game feel enormous. Flying over Storm Peaks is pretty stunning and was just cool.

    Icecrown by comparison was so lackluster in my opinion. The way they militarized the zone completely took away from what I envisioned it would look like from Warcraft 3, and sort of fell flat. To me, Storm Peaks was absolutely the "real" end game zone and I always preferred it over Icecrown. Basically, Icecrown didn't actually feel "cold" to me and I envisioned it being a hellish blizzard like landscape.

    I'm the kind of person who actually likes zones like Vashj'ir, even though I get why so many people hate it. The zone was massive and there's no other zone remotely close to it in the game. I also thought the underwater mount thing was super cool.

  11. #71
    All of WOTLK is to slow for my tastes. WOD seems just by far the fastest way to level right now.

  12. #72
    Epic! Hansworst's Avatar
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    Storm Peaks was okay-ish. Recently leveled an alt and must say Howling Fjord is the most beautiful zone in WotLK
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  13. #73
    Dreadlord Pakheth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ticj View Post
    I disagree with this, not every part of a zone needs to be interesting. Generic flat areas help separate things and adds a sense of scale, something that is severely lacking in newer zones.
    Scope is something I feel is really lacking in newer zones. Look at Vol'dun. It's supposed to be a large desert but you can easily see the end of the "desert" from any point of view of the zone. Tanaris and even Uldum manages the feeling of a desert much better because it has empty spaces. And this is important. I like to compare this to the differences between Chinese and Japanese art: In Chinese art the focus is often in adding so many details that you are nearly overwhelmed, while in Japanese art the focus on empty spaces paired with few interesting points gives you room to breathe and enjoy the smaller things. I like this is in WoW zones too. Take Uldum for instance. You have a portion of the desert which is just dunes, but in the distance you see ruins rise from the sands. It creates a sense of awe and discovery that a full packed zone very rarely manages. Vanilla/TBC/Wotlk/Cata/Mop zones had large areas that only existed to slow us down but in return it made the world seem big. It gave you time to breathe before heading to the next area. Newer zones you can't go around a corner without bumping into something new and it can feel really cramped.

  14. #74
    One of my favorite zones.

  15. #75
    Brewmaster Ticj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakheth View Post
    Scope is something I feel is really lacking in newer zones. Look at Vol'dun. It's supposed to be a large desert but you can easily see the end of the "desert" from any point of view of the zone. Tanaris and even Uldum manages the feeling of a desert much better because it has empty spaces. And this is important. I like to compare this to the differences between Chinese and Japanese art: In Chinese art the focus is often in adding so many details that you are nearly overwhelmed, while in Japanese art the focus on empty spaces paired with few interesting points gives you room to breathe and enjoy the smaller things. I like this is in WoW zones too. Take Uldum for instance. You have a portion of the desert which is just dunes, but in the distance you see ruins rise from the sands. It creates a sense of awe and discovery that a full packed zone very rarely manages. Vanilla/TBC/Wotlk/Cata/Mop zones had large areas that only existed to slow us down but in return it made the world seem big. It gave you time to breathe before heading to the next area. Newer zones you can't go around a corner without bumping into something new and it can feel really cramped.
    You hit the nail on the head for me. I was most excited for Vol'dun this expansion, and was very let down when I realized the zone still somehow managed to feel cramped.

  16. #76
    <Blizzard makes a mountain without a path up it>

    Playerbase: zomg! Zone designed with flying in mind!!!!!

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    <Blizzard makes a mountain without a path up it>

    Playerbase: zomg! Zone designed with flying in mind!!!!!
    Blizzard designs literally anything: Half the playerbase; OMFG THIS IS AMAZING! Half the playerbase: OMFG THIS IS WHY WOW IS DYING!!!

    This is obviously more obvious when discussing something entirely subjective like "is this thing fun?"

  18. #78
    it's great when there's some zones that stand out because they're different. Storm Peaks and Blades Edge Mountains use flying well, Vashj'ir was a great idea (although pathing was awful for melee sadly)... with the Pathfinder compromise it makes a flight-friendly zone impossible for levelling but it can still be used well for endgame content. unfortunately Blizz don't really take advantage of that much any more

  19. #79
    Storm Peaks and Vash'jir I felt really did the idea of flying exploration justice and I'd be happy to see something similar in the future. Other zones I've found flying either didn't add anything to the experience or actively detracted from it. Icecrown for example had all the threat taken out the Scourge as they were all scrabbling around on the floor as we soared overhead picking targets at will. Hyjal definitely had the feel of a zone that should have been tackled from the ground but it seems the Cata zones were finished knowing that flight would be included so they didn't really sort out the proper pathing or flight points to get around happily. Deepholm has me very much on the fence, it was really cool to fly around the area but I think it would have been nice to have some of the vistas revealed as the quests guide you around the zones.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Storm Peaks to me is atmospherically one of the better zones in the game and I still vividly remember the questline at the bottom of the first mountain plane where the goblins were sacrificing themselves to give you time.

    I don't think from a design standpoint that the zone was one of the better questing zones though. It was relatively jarring to traverse prior to flying and wasn't exactly easy to navigate (which is fine). Unless you absolutely detest snow zones, it's easily one of the more atmospheric zones in the game, and absolutely makes the game feel enormous. Flying over Storm Peaks is pretty stunning and was just cool.

    Icecrown by comparison was so lackluster in my opinion. The way they militarized the zone completely took away from what I envisioned it would look like from Warcraft 3, and sort of fell flat. To me, Storm Peaks was absolutely the "real" end game zone and I always preferred it over Icecrown. Basically, Icecrown didn't actually feel "cold" to me and I envisioned it being a hellish blizzard like landscape.

    I'm the kind of person who actually likes zones like Vashj'ir, even though I get why so many people hate it. The zone was massive and there's no other zone remotely close to it in the game. I also thought the underwater mount thing was super cool.
    Huzzah, a man of quality! Another who appreciates Vashj'ir!

    Also i definitely agree with you on icecrown, despite its size it felt small, somehow, isolated even, as if it should have been integrated better with the zones surrounding it.
    And i mean given that the zones surrounding it were sholazar (very different theme, but good way to switch into icecrown with the way the wall fell down), Storm peaks (basically the o'l impassable wall, disappointing really), crystal song (the abandoned unused zone, such a pity, i loved the aesthetic and then they just leave it all to rot...) and of course Wintergrasp (which was just jarring in the way it was put in the middle of the continent, i ean nothing against it conceptually but it's basically so close to icecrown that it's completely weird that it's a pvp batteground). Also the wrathgate means that it has a small border with dragonblight, which is of course excellently done.

    So yeah, Icecrown did feel like it was oddly tacked on too, somehow, but i think it's mostly due to it lacking proper smooth transition both in gameplay terms as well as in zone design terms.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    Storm Peaks was okay-ish. Recently leveled an alt and must say Howling Fjord is the most beautiful zone in WotLK
    Gotta admit to that one, though Storm Peaks has it beat on atmosphere.
    I know Zul'Drak isn't popular but i did like that one too.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pakheth View Post
    Scope is something I feel is really lacking in newer zones. Look at Vol'dun. It's supposed to be a large desert but you can easily see the end of the "desert" from any point of view of the zone. Tanaris and even Uldum manages the feeling of a desert much better because it has empty spaces. And this is important. I like to compare this to the differences between Chinese and Japanese art: In Chinese art the focus is often in adding so many details that you are nearly overwhelmed, while in Japanese art the focus on empty spaces paired with few interesting points gives you room to breathe and enjoy the smaller things. I like this is in WoW zones too. Take Uldum for instance. You have a portion of the desert which is just dunes, but in the distance you see ruins rise from the sands. It creates a sense of awe and discovery that a full packed zone very rarely manages. Vanilla/TBC/Wotlk/Cata/Mop zones had large areas that only existed to slow us down but in return it made the world seem big. It gave you time to breathe before heading to the next area. Newer zones you can't go around a corner without bumping into something new and it can feel really cramped.
    Also i like this take, though i do not fully agree with it.
    Sand and snow for the sake of sand and snow are different than having stuff work naturalistically, and i find that the latter is extremely important for immersion and to avoid crampiness in games.
    But that's disagreement about details honestly.
    Last edited by loras; 2020-10-27 at 12:37 AM.
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