The horde should have been dismantled after Siege of Orgrimmar ideally

[HCLM]

Well it was what would realistically happen to the horde IF the horde would be decisively be defeated like Germany did.

But Germany was defeated (twice) and they still function as a country...

Also Alliance didnt conquer Orgrimmar alone. All Horde factions that were against Garrosh took a major part in the offensive.

[Soon-TM]

We can monkey's paw your wish:

In the attempt to annihilate Horde culture in Orgimmar, overzealous alliance factions go too far and sack horde outposts in Ashenvale, causing wide environmental damage that greatly anger the night elves. With their sacred forest now more damaged than ever, Tyrande makes the call to leave the Alliance. Tensions mount, and the First Human-Elf War breaks out. This culminates in Malfurion dropping a massive cyclone on Stormwind, spinning it into the sky and out to sea.

This 100%. After all, our resident shitter writer Danuser loves Subverting Expectations™, and what better at that that the Golden Boi's army going full retarded in Ashenvale? It makes at least as much sense as BfA Sylvie.

[agentsi]

Actually I imagine removal of factions would be positive for WoW. Faction MMORPGs are outdated, terrible for storytelling, fuels a toxic community and restricts players

Tell that to ESO, who is thriving in every category you just mentioned. Or Guild Wars 2, or any other current faction based MMO. None of the ideas are outdated, and they are all successful. Combined, more successful than wow, as wow factions are really just what race do you want.

It's okay to be wrong, but don't be blatantly ignorant.

[Mungho]

now they could ofc do some pillaging and reparations as part of the peace treaty, but they also already know from wow history that orcs get a bit upset if they live in a resource poor desert.

The orcs wouldn't have had to live in a resource-poor desert if not for f***king Thrall. I would have either settled Orgrimmar nearer to the barrens at the mouth of the Sandfury river, or they all should have gone to live in the green fields of Mulgore.

You know, instead of Tyrande throwing Azhara at the Horde hoping it will satisfy their lust for wood, she could have sent druids to teach the orcs of Durotar sustainable farming techniques. Of course, that would be really boring to show in an MMO, so here we are.

Now that I think about it, anyone remember how in BFA Anduin told Saurfang the orcs could join the Alliance?

[Kiri]

Tell that to ESO, who is thriving in every category you just mentioned. Or Guild Wars 2, or any other current faction based MMO. None of the ideas are outdated, and they are all successful. Combined, more successful than wow, as wow factions are really just what race do you want.

It's okay to be wrong, but don't be blatantly ignorant.

Guild Wars 2 is faction based? Never really felt that way, mostly because what factions there are do not divide the playerbase at all. That's what is usually meant when people talk about a game being faction based, games that definitely divide the playerbase, as in WoW or SWTOR. The orders in Guild Wars or the companies in FF14 don't really do that. At best they decide certain kinds of contents that are available only to your group, but you can still go and do a dungeon with just about any player on your server.

[Powerogue]

An occupation council should have been instated, and a deindustrialization process to prevent the horde if ever reunited to ever wage war again.

Some have argued that's what just happened, far more successfully as the current Horde leadership agreed to it rather than it having to be militarily forced.

[Melusine]

And Jaina with Vereesa should be in jail for purge of Dalaran?
Same as Genn for breaking the alliance during 2 war.
Same as Varian for invading Undersity?
Or should Kul-Tiras pays Darkspear for 2 invasions?
Or Alliance for supporting Grimtotem?
You see, apart of bad trolling, we play both stories and dont want to lose. Thats why we are rebels, so dont answer for tyrant atrocities.
Lets bring to jail those, who provoke 4th war? Calia, Anduin and Genn? But hey, ita not fair to blame blue team!

"And Jaina with Vereesa should be in jail for purge of Dalaran?"

According to.... Dalaran law? I mean, if the other members of the Circle of Six wanted it, sure. They didn't. The ones in the Violet hold would likely be released, but that's it.

"Same as Genn for breaking the alliance during 2 war."

Genn had the authority by his crown to remove himself and his people from the Alliance, for any or no reason. So, that's reaching....

"Same as Varian for invading Undersity?"

Nope. It was authorized by the Queen of the Undercity, Sylvanas Windrunner.

"Or should Kul-Tiras pays Darkspear for 2 invasions?"

Considering the Kul-tirans were defeated, and their leader killed, if you think insult to injury is a good thing for that..... I just don't see it.

"Or Alliance for supporting Grimtotem?"

I seriously doubt the Tauren would push the issue, considering the Grimtotem also attacked the Alliance.

"Lets bring to jail those, who provoke 4th war? Calia, Anduin and Genn? But hey, ita not fair to blame blue team!"

Yep, let's bring those people to justice for.... killing their own people. Oh wait, that was Sylvanas!!! Burning Teldrassil?? Oh wait, that was Sylvanas!!! Attempting to subjugate a titan.... Oh wait, that was Sylvanas!!!! Seems a common theme is cropping up, here...

[agentsi]

Guild Wars 2 is faction based? Never really felt that way, mostly because what factions there are do not divide the playerbase at all. That's what is usually meant when people talk about a game being faction based, games that definitely divide the playerbase, as in WoW or SWTOR. The orders in Guild Wars or the companies in FF14 don't really do that. At best they decide certain kinds of contents that are available only to your group, but you can still go and do a dungeon with just about any player on your server.

Guilds are typically split into what faction you are for WPvP, so while it really doesn't affect you, per se in PvE, it does in PvP. And guilds do not want other factions in their guild.

[Rozz]

I see his choice as the best option of a shitty situation.

Had Varian decided to crush the races hurt by Garrosh (and still reeling from wounds inflicted by the current/old Alliance), it would've just been rise of the Horde 2.0. Bitter groups coming together to fight against those who try to dictate their way of life. It'd be a lot of death to restart a cycle and reach the same point. To me, that's the issue with the Alliance/Horde narrative. It's not the loss of a faction that hurts, it's how the other one will choose to win. An Alliance win would be cultural genocide and policing how other races get to live. A Horde win would be literal genocide and policing which races get to live. Both of those options are terrible.

[Dancaris]

According to.... Dalaran law? I mean, if the other members of the Circle of Six wanted it, sure. They didn't. The ones in the Violet hold would likely be released, but that's it.

So if other archimages are ok with purge its alright? Its not killing inocent blood elf? So Stratholme if ok too? Prince did it, so it ok.

Genn had the authority by his crown to remove himself and his people from the Alliance, for any or no reason

And leaving his people outside the wall to be killed by undead and worgens.

Nope. It was authorized by the Queen of the Undercity, Sylvanas Windrunner.

really? To restore Lordaeron to the Alliance is action authorized by the Queen of the Undercity, Sylvanas Windrunner? Sylvanas calls Horde, but not Alliance.

Considering the Kul-tirans were defeated, and their leader killed

Your paralels to Nazis - if Hitler killed himself - there should not be postwar contribution? They invaded troll lands, killed trolls and die in
process. They should pay for that. Its your logic with Garrosh and Horde, mate.

that was Sylvanas!!!

Yes, it was Sylvanas. I dont deny that. But acting like Alliance did nothing? Attacking Horde fleet in Stormheim, attacking Horde miners in Silithus, bringing Menethil in peace meeting in Arathi to provoke that killing? Or its not count? Or its just, you know, Horde thing to be blamed?

And for a minute - we, as Horde players - are rebels in both sieges of Orgrimmar.
Why you wish to take contribution from allies? Yes, its asspull interpretation of Horde forces, but for Blizzard devs - its ok.

[crakerjack]

I agree, but we have to remind ourselves that WoW is a video game, not just a story. The practicality of something like that would be hard to implement when majority of the playerbase is horde. There's limitations as far as what you can do in order to uphold gameplay. If WoW wasn't a game and was a show, I could imagine something like that occurring.

[Schattenlied]

The horde should have been dismantled and carved up for the winners, for the spoils of the war go to the winners. An occupation council should have been instated, and a deindustrialization process to prevent the horde if ever reunited to ever wage war again.

No, no, you don't do that, that's basically how we got Nazi Germany after WW1.


What should have really happened is:

Varian to Thrall and Vol'jin: Everyone who fought against Garrosh, you're all members of the Alliance now, no exceptions, no complaints, no more fighting, we're all on the same side now, full stop.

[Sharnie786]

Saurfang reflects on this in A Good War:



Saurfang acknowledges that the Alliance had the strength and resources to crush the Horde, but it would've proven very costly -- too costly. It would've left the countries of the Alliance weakened and exhausted, an easy prey for the Iron Horde and then the Legion. That's why Varian decided to offer a truce, even though he had the means to dismantle the Horde as Jaina suggested.

That quote is misleading too. Destroying the Horde doesn't mean killing all their people it means absorbing most of them. It would strengthen the Alliance not weaken it. When a conqueror takes a new land do the people get culled? They come along for the ride and become the conquerors citizens unless they rebel. Thats when they get punished. The Undead, Blood Elves, Nightbourne, Highmountain Tauren, Tauren, Mag'har Orc and Vulpera will be welcomed by the Alliance and be accepted. The Orcs, Trolls, Zandalari Trolls and Goblins will be exterminated

- - - Updated - - -

So if other archimages are ok with purge its alright? Its not killing inocent blood elf? So Stratholme if ok too? Prince did it, so it ok.


And leaving his people outside the wall to be killed by undead and worgens.



really? To restore Lordaeron to the Alliance is action authorized by the Queen of the Undercity, Sylvanas Windrunner? Sylvanas calls Horde, but not Alliance.



Your paralels to Nazis - if Hitler killed himself - there should not be postwar contribution? They invaded troll lands, killed trolls and die in
process. They should pay for that. Its your logic with Garrosh and Horde, mate.


Yes, it was Sylvanas. I dont deny that. But acting like Alliance did nothing? Attacking Horde fleet in Stormheim, attacking Horde miners in Silithus, bringing Menethil in peace meeting in Arathi to provoke that killing? Or its not count? Or its just, you know, Horde thing to be blamed?

And for a minute - we, as Horde players - are rebels in both sieges of Orgrimmar.
Why you wish to take contribution from allies? Yes, its asspull interpretation of Horde forces, but for Blizzard devs - its ok.

What are you on? Those "Alliance aggressions" you speak of are not Alliance aggressions at all. All of what you said is baseless. Anything Arthas did is nothing to do with the Alliance because he was kicked out as soon as he mentioned culling people in Stratholme.

You were rebels after the fact, not before. Blizzard only wrote that in because of their bias towards Horde. The basis, beginning, middle and end of Horde is and always was evil. The sooner you Horde players accept that the better. Your faction will continue to be the ugly evil guys.

[Your Mommy]

I hardly doubt the Alliance had enough resources and manpower at that time to get that through.
Not to mention the Horde leaders who were present there wouldn't take getting semi-enslaved laying down.
It'd have been a disaster for both factions.

[Dancaris]

What are you on? Those "Alliance aggressions" you speak of are not Alliance aggressions at all. All of what you said is baseless. Anything Arthas did is nothing to do with the Alliance because he was kicked out as soon as he mentioned culling people in Stratholme.

You were rebels after the fact, not before. Blizzard only wrote that in because of their bias towards Horde. The basis, beginning, middle and end of Horde is and always was evil. The sooner you Horde players accept that the better. Your faction will continue to be the ugly evil guys.

Well, well, well. So - if Arthas not Alliance after culling of Strat, was he Alliance during culling? Or people, who followed him was traitors?
With that logic - Garrosh was not Horde as soon as he mentioned cutting trees in Ashenvale or bombing Theramore. And Sylvanas was not Horde as soon as she mentioned actions of War of Thorns.

And we are not rebels after. We was rebels after Vol'Jin murder attempt, after Saurfang murder attempt.
And for the "muh Horde bias" we could talk after we invade your capital to kill your king twice, after killing almost all your named characters.
Will it be ok to you to kill by your hands Malfurion, Anduin and Velen? Or to demolish horde orphantage because Genn told you? Will it be Alliance bias? Oh, right, it will be still Horde bias, because horde players can still play it.
And will it be ok for you to play a patch with 0 alliance npcs at all? You know, like Argus? Where was not a single horde npc. Or class hall with 0 connections with your factions? Like, you know, paladins, mages, hunters and druids?
Or will it be ok for you to kill parents at eyes of children of trolls? Like, you know, at Brennadam? For Alliance bias ofc.

We want to play a game, where we should feel proud of actions or look of your faction. Not this disgusting "EVIL WARCHIEF"s, maniacs and bloodshed. Not with "moral grey'' stuff. To be heroes, not antiheroes at best.

[Raisei]

Giving the Horde a chance to return to peaceful co-existance after the first Siege of Orgrimmar was alright. It was a huge character moment for Varian and Anduin and there was an actual chance the Horde could be a worthwhile ally in the future.

Doing the same again after they have proven themselves untrustworthy in BFA is a very different story, it showed us that at least big parts of the Horde are not able to keep the peace and will jump at any chance for war. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice... well.

What I mean to say is: After SoO 1.0 there was a narrative point to make why the Horde was allowed to keep existing without oversight, after SoO 2.0 the only reason for the Horde's continued existance is that it is a player faction, hence it gets to commit atrocities on the same scale as the Legion and Scourge but does not face any consequences.

[Saltysquidoon]

This thread is pointless faction war baiting but here's a though. Why did blizzard (twice) write a story they can't deliver on? Why does blizzard consistently write plots that constantly strain against the bounds of an mmo?
I mean presumably, the writers know they're writing for an mmo so why even raise the 'possibility' of one faction being destroyed, then not do it because they can't and then write in some book later how it totally makes sense because something terrible would happen.

Well, well, well. So - if Arthas not Alliance after culling of Strat, was he Alliance during culling? Or people, who followed him was traitors?
With that logic - Garrosh was not Horde as soon as he mentioned cutting trees in Ashenvale or bombing Theramore. And Sylvanas was not Horde as soon as she mentioned actions of War of Thorns.

You might need to look up what de jure authority means, while you're at it look up reaching because you'll find a picture of this post.

[masterjc]

It was in no shape to fight back, and yet the alliance decided to not enact on this golden opportunity to end it there. The horde should have been dismantled and carved up for the winners, for the spoils of the war go to the winners. An occupation council should have been instated, and a deindustrialization process to prevent the horde if ever reunited to ever wage war again.
Of course occupational duties take a heavy toll so occupation duties will have to be upheld by troops native to the land until the dehordification process is complete.
The fleet of the horde, whatever is left of it, will be divided up to the winners. So will the rest of the stockpiled supplies and vehicles. Any blueprints will be sold off.
Orgrimmar will be turned into a free neutral city, ripe for trading with road connections to Azshara and Durotar, plus the harbour next to it. So will the island in the middle of Azshara. Silvermoon city will be repaired and grant a concession port to the alliance. The tauren had it hard enough so they'll be left alone and get help with their quilboar problem.

The horde constituents will also have to pay a sum of money and resources for many years forwards to repay the damages they caused the alliance.

in this situation, gameplay > logic and story
u cant erase half of playerbase

technically, it would be good, to allow both factions interact with eachother

let Blood Elves leave Horde and rejoin Alliance
maybe some Orcs think that what Garrosh did was bad and want to make some amends and join Kaldorei in restoring what was wronged
etc

if all races can join both factions, it would make much more interesting stories

more choices
etc

better for RP, PvP, Lore and so on

for example, Horde would dismantle after SoO
and new faction would rise
and instead of 2 singular, we might have much more factions

for PvP reasons, we still could have 2 teams, A and B
thats all

[Varodoc]

That quote is misleading too. Destroying the Horde doesn't mean killing all their people it means absorbing most of them. It would strengthen the Alliance not weaken it. When a conqueror takes a new land do the people get culled? They come along for the ride and become the conquerors citizens unless they rebel. Thats when they get punished. The Undead, Blood Elves, Nightbourne, Highmountain Tauren, Tauren, Mag'har Orc and Vulpera will be welcomed by the Alliance and be accepted. The Orcs, Trolls, Zandalari Trolls and Goblins will be exterminated

Stop thinking so idealistically. The Alliance would need to garrison every conquered Horde city, because the Forsaken or Trolls surely wouldn't stay obedient. Many forces would have to be devoted to guarding and patrolling the conquered regions, thus significantly limiting the armies that the Alliance would have at its disposal for war purposes.

The Alliance would be over-extended hard as well in trying to keep so many distant territories. That was the doom of the Roman Empire, and the Alliance isn't even an unformed body at all, it's literally just an alliance between independent countries. What if Stormwind seeks to crush the Horde and keep the conquered territories but Ironforge refuses to over-extend itself by keeping the conquered territories? What then? Everything falls apart.

[Mace]

It was in no shape to fight back, and yet the alliance decided to not enact on this golden opportunity to end it there. The horde should have been dismantled and carved up for the winners, for the spoils of the war go to the winners. An occupation council should have been instated, and a deindustrialization process to prevent the horde if ever reunited to ever wage war again.
Of course occupational duties take a heavy toll so occupation duties will have to be upheld by troops native to the land until the dehordification process is complete.
The fleet of the horde, whatever is left of it, will be divided up to the winners. So will the rest of the stockpiled supplies and vehicles. Any blueprints will be sold off.
Orgrimmar will be turned into a free neutral city, ripe for trading with road connections to Azshara and Durotar, plus the harbour next to it. So will the island in the middle of Azshara. Silvermoon city will be repaired and grant a concession port to the alliance. The tauren had it hard enough so they'll be left alone and get help with their quilboar problem.

The horde constituents will also have to pay a sum of money and resources for many years forwards to repay the damages they caused the alliance.

Honey, you don’t get it. It’s World of Hordecradt. 2.0 to 8.0 have been about the horde mainly. With the alliance the support characters.

SoO was about the horde saving the horde and the alliance tagging along to support cos u know u want alliance to still pay to play if they won’t faction change. So you gotta throw em a bone. Besides they are needed to make the horde look good and feel good about themselves.

No other outcome would have been considered.

However if it was realistically portrayed then yes, the horde would have been dismantled. But then if not for this faction system, TBC would have been very different