When they made Awakened did they consider the tanks at all?

[Elkfingers]

Avoiding toxic players and annoying bs doesn’t seem like much of a loss

Dude. When you do group content, there's a social contract. I respect your time, and you respect mine. Sure, there are both toxic and non-toxic ways of dealing with a situation where somebody else is wasting your fucking time, but ultimately what's toxic and bullshit on its face is when people don't take the time to understand what they're supposed to do in M+ runs, fuck the key up for 4 other people, and are so entitled as to think that everyone else is the problem for taking issue with that.

I have no problem with people being shit at the game. It happens. I do have a problem when people don't have the humility to own their shit and try to learn from it. It's a shit attitude, and it's why certain players never improve. There's much less toxicity in groups where everyone is at the top of their game, because those people have a positive mentality when it comes to introspection and self-improvement.

[Acidmetal]

Always try to find the fault in yourself first. Blaming everything else is always easier, but almost always the inferior choice in general. There is always a solution to everything for achieving your objective with the resources available to you.

[Domixux]

Always try to find the fault in yourself first. Blaming everything else is always easier, but almost always the inferior choice in general. There is always a solution to everything for achieving your objective with the resources available to you.

Found Ghandi. Seriously, does you even read the thread?

[Elkfingers]

Found Ghandi. Seriously, does you even read the thread?

I read the thread. It's full of people blaming others for their own shortcomings.

[Yorimar]

Reading the responses in this thread is a perfect example of why it takes so long to find tanks. Not only has Blizzard made it an extraordinary pain in the ass for them, on top of that they have to deal with people like you who act like - yes - act like elitists and spew toxicity instead of acknowledging the systemic issues with tanking that Blizzard has done nothing over the years to renovate, alleviate, and generally make more accessible to players. Instead of pointing fingers at the OP, how about acknowledging the point of their post which is that ultimately Blizzard is failing the playerbase as a whole by burdening tanks with a workload that no other role has to deal with and yet feels entitled to undeservedly high expectations toward a single player in their group.

It's no wonder most people don't want to do it, and that's why it takes so damn long to find one.

tanks have been in the minority since forever, not because blizzard made it hard for them, but because people dont want to have any form of responsibility and want some cookie cutter class that just facerolls everything. for this reason i mained a tank since wotlk and still enjoy it to this day. youre the tank, youre supposed to lead the group and know how stuff works. so call it elitist all you want if you cant handle even 1 of the things i mentioned, tank isnt the spec for you

[erifwodahs]

lol... i've tanked all to +15... it was not fun...

Well, I guess not everyone has to like it. Tho in m+ you have way more dynamics than raid tanking.

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tanks have been in the minority since forever, not because blizzard made it hard for them, but because people dont want to have any form of responsibility and want some cookie cutter class that just facerolls everything. for this reason i mained a tank since wotlk and still enjoy it to this day. youre the tank, youre supposed to lead the group and know how stuff works. so call it elitist all you want if you cant handle even 1 of the things i mentioned, tank isnt the spec for you

I agree on this. Also M+ made playing a tank way more interesting for me.
Tank is a game changer in how m+ run goes and it takes specific traits to do it well. You don't want a leader of a timed challenge to be asking for confirmation from a party

[epigramx]

There is no game where you would get easy entrance as a tank mid expansion when everyone else already know all the shit.

That's delusional. You know some shit. The game is filled with players that come and go to the game all the time and guess what they are not "noobs" they just don't play non-stop for months sometimes (e.g. I've only seen BfA in the end of 8.3 and now).

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you couldn't be fucked to do your own research.

If you think the game should require people to STUDY before PLAYING AT ALL, then you're not playing a game, you're doing a job.

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What are you talking about? For +10 you can just enter the portal, kill the add and exist in the same spot

I can tell you don't tank.

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Doing high keys so these is less "me so good, you trash" players in the upper rankings. Not 100% clean, but way better than doing a +16 or so. Most trouble I run is entitled bad players in low keys.

I don't get what you mean. Are you talking about 24+ keys that are run mostly by 12/12/mythic players? Those aren't toxic-free because they are great people but because they have 999 ilevel gear and know the content perfectly (they are often the most toxic people when they don't outgear the content).

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it's the most boring... i can't even do my routes because people suck too much...

"hunter/rogue/mage can you pull the pack away from the obelisk?"

runs in and dies on the obelisk... or pulls the pack to the group...

It's pretty clear in pugging that YOU DO NOT TALK AND ONLY RUN. Anything else is considered noobish and obnoxious (most of the time at least). I know it's wrong but that's how it is and it's the primary reason that turns Awakened into a real job for a tank that wasn't playing since the start of the expansions and doesn't know everything perfectly (so Awakened could be a modest elevation of their knowledge and not something so steep).

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Always try to find the fault in yourself first. Blaming everything else is always easier, but almost always the inferior choice in general. There is always a solution to everything for achieving your objective with the resources available to you.

My fault (or "fault") is pretty obvious. I don't know the content perfectly. But the entire point of this thread is that it's an extremely steep learning curve for a tank unless they play that content for many months already so if someone begins m+ with Awakened already in their first season then it becomes a real job to learn what to do because every single time you have to do >=10 you have to become a student of youtube videos and addon routes.

[Lucetia]

The only tanks here that find what I said weak are obviously people that tank those 5mans for many months, so thinking of Awakened can be a bit easier for them because they already know the trash perfectly so making those routes is a minor or at least modest elevation of their knowledge of the 5man.

Now think of someone that started tanking - hell started the EXPANSION because I wait for SL - after 8.3 and you understand this is an absolute hellish mess for a tank (I mean sure I have already done a 16+++ and this hell of an Awakened that is Junkard at a failed 12 but it's not easy).

Even thinking of it as someone new it is still a you problem. There are many tools out there that even give you the route. As someone who hadn't tanked M+ until 8.3 I found Awakened fun and not that hard at all. If you are struggling with it that much then perhaps tanking or planning a run isn't for you?

[epigramx]

Even thinking of it as someone new it is still a you problem. There are many tools out there that even give you the route. As someone who hadn't tanked M+ until 8.3 I found Awakened fun and not that hard at all. If you are struggling with it that much then perhaps tanking or planning a run isn't for you?

You are off topic basically. The entire point is that it's a steep learning curve and not that it's impossible so you coming here calling others indirectly "noobs" adds nothing to the discussion.
Also it's pretty clear that you tanked at 8.3 but you already knew the 5mans from other roles so you're off on that too.

[msdos]

As a tank you gotta just learn to not give a crap and make your own group. If anyone says anything, either put them all on ignore or just leave and make a new group.
If they don't like whatever in a video game for children and teenagers, they can kick rocks.

[Lucetia]

You are off topic basically.

It's not off topic at all. It's on point about how easy Awakened was.

The entire point is that it's a steep learning curve and not that it's impossible so you coming here calling others indirectly "noobs" adds nothing to the discussion.

Not once did I call you a noob or anything of the sort. I said the entire problem was a you thing. That doesn't make you a noob or anything. It means the issue lies within you and if you research it and stuff then perhaps it is easier. It's not that it is a problem for everyone, just that you find it a problem. If you took it that way then that's something that is on you.

Also it's pretty clear that you tanked at 8.3 but you already knew the 5mans from other roles so you're off on that too.

Actually no, but thank you for the assumption. The only time I ran the dungeons was at the start of the expansion for the initial storylines that you needed to progress. After that never touched it. So, you are off on that. Though tanking at 8.3 is the whole point since that is the season Awakened existed and just because it exists now doesn't change anything at all because it is still 8.3 and everything still applies.

The only thing I did was run 8.3 and started tanking at M+2 and worked my way up to M+10. After that I opened up MDT and plotted a run from there. After a few weeks I heard about raider.io/dratnos and started pulling those runs. It's not hard, complicated or anything. It's a matter of being a tank and taking the initiative in doing your role.

You can say you don't need to do research and you don't if you play the game. You can wing strats if you want, you can tank it at the spot, there is no wrong answer at all, but there is optimization. Heck, the game is basically a M+0 state. Once you go higher then it's more competitive and at that point it is expected that you do some research.

[Strongstyle]

Route mismanagement aside - likely not. Awakened seemed to be an attempt to make Rogues not 100% required for M+.

[epigramx]

Route mismanagement aside - likely not. Awakened seemed to be an attempt to make Rogues not 100% required for M+.

Hah that's a very good point.

By the way my initial OP is a bit "tainted" by the fact I started all this thing with Mechagon (!!) so it's really not the most user-friendly feature for someone new at Junkyard.

I was doing a few more lately and I have to admit some of them are ludicrously obvious how to play because they are almost identical to a normal run or even faster.

[Asrialol]

You're over complicating the healer role, at least as far as most healers are concerned, even in high keys. Are there some healers who do as you say? Sure, I'll give you that, but for the most part, healers just react to the outgoing damage profile as it is happening. We do make note of trash packs that have higher outgoing damage profiles, but you can flawlessly do high keys by just reacting and understanding the week's affixes.

Try reacting to missed interrupts or such that one shots. I've never played with a healer on my alts on 25+ keys in S4 that didn't have WAs for peoples personal cds. You can't react to people getting oneshot. You need to know what's going on all the time, and if all interrupts are on cd you need to know this so you can prepare a CC, CD, etc.

I'd be surprised if there was any reactive healers like those you talk about at the 5k+ rio bracket in S4.

You need to know each pull, what each mob does in each pack, the time it takes to kill each pack, etc. There's so much planning before each pack there's not supposed to be any event where you should need to react.

[epigramx]

Try reacting to missed interrupts or such that one shots. I've never played with a healer on my alts on 25+ keys in S4 that didn't have WAs for peoples personal cds. You can't react to people getting oneshot. You need to know what's going on all the time, and if all interrupts are on cd you need to know this so you can prepare a CC, CD, etc.

I'd be surprised if there was any reactive healers like those you talk about at the 5k+ rio bracket in S4.

You need to know each pull, what each mob does in each pack, the time it takes to kill each pack, etc. There's so much planning before each pack there's not supposed to be any event where you should need to react.

I've gone through all roles from a raiding perspective and I'd say healers are clearly at least number 2 in difficulty. They have ALL the responsibilities of a ranged DPS in terms of not standing in shit AND at the same time they must know the mechanics of incoming dmg very well.

What makes their role easier than what it COULD be is that basically they really have 0 responsibility at pulling or dpsing (for the most part) so that factor alone makes them extremely relaxed on easy-ish content but of course not on end-game.

[loras]

Agreed. Hopefully Blizzard will simplify M+ so that all you need to do is insert the key and the game provides with the loot right afterward. Personally, I think it's a complete outrage that Blizzard has the audacity to ask me to exercise any brain power when I play this game.

Yes, because pitting a tank with an addon against one without an addon that trivialises part of the game constitutes using your brain. /s

[Elkfingers]

If you think the game should require people to STUDY before PLAYING AT ALL, then you're not playing a game, you're doing a job.

Literally every single game requires you to understand how its systems work. Competence isn't exclusive to professional contexts. Not that it matters anyway - you agreed to the job of tanking somebody else's key even though you lacked the knowledge requisite for you to do so. Sure it's a game, but within the game you took on a job you weren't qualified for - see how that works?

Besides, this is a totally bullshit take. If you don't want to do the bare minimum before jumping in a group and wasting 4 other people's time because you have legit no respect whatsoever for anybody else's in-game experience, you can fuck about in M0 and low + keys. There are plenty of ways in which you can play and read literally nothing.

My point (contained within the rest of my post which I guess wasn't as convenient for you to respond to as a completely out of context fragment) is that if you're gonna jump in a key that's >10 without taking literally 2 minutes out of your day to establish some basic fucking semblance of where you're meant to go, and you expect to be able to do that without people thinking you're an entitled douche (or to give you validation on here as though looking at a route for a minute or two is some arduous task), then you're out of your fuckin mind.

Just saying my dude. If you're playing timed content with other people, it's kinda rude to not know what you're doing.

[Die]

My point (contained within the rest of my post which I guess wasn't as convenient for you to respond to as a completely out of context fragment) is that if you're gonna jump in a key that's >10 without taking literally 2 minutes out of your day to establish some basic fucking semblance of where you're meant to go, and you expect to be able to do that without people thinking you're an entitled douche, then you're literally out of your fuckin mind.

Dude, step away from the computer, grab a beer, relax in the recliner for a few hours.

[epigramx]

Literally every single game requires you to understand how its systems work. Competence isn't exclusive to professional contexts.

Besides, this is a totally bullshit take. If you don't want to do the bare minimum before jumping in a group and wasting 4 other people's time because you have legit no respect whatsoever for anybody else's in-game experience, you can fuck about in M0 and low + keys. There are plenty of ways in which you can play and read literally nothing.

My point is that if you're gonna jump in a key that's >10 without taking literally 2 minutes out of your day to establish some basic fucking semblance of where you're meant to go, and you expect to be able to do that without people thinking you're an entitled douche, then you're literally out of your fuckin mind.

That's wrong especially because you CAN LEARN the current 5mans WITHOUT STUDYING youtube or imports of addons. The main reason this affix frustrated me was that it was an insanely steep learning curve if you enter the expansion now (which is what I did).
Anyway I did exaggerate a little bit too because my first experiences with it included Junkyard which is insanely confusing on Awakened if you don't know the 5man for weeks or months while at least half of the other 5mans are pretty straight forward.

[Relapses]

That's wrong especially because you CAN LEARN the current 5mans WITHOUT STUDYING youtube or imports of addons. The main reason this affix frustrated me was that it was an insanely steep learning curve if you enter the expansion now (which is what I did).
Anyway I did exaggerate a little bit too because my first experiences with it included Junkyard which is insanely confusing on Awakened if you don't know the 5man for weeks or months while at least half of the other 5mans are pretty straight forward.

There's this thing you can do called communication. Before the group starts let them know you're unfamiliar with the route and ask for suggestions. Or play an off role for the dungeon and see how other people do it then copy them. There's a million things you could do that don't involve logging onto a forum to complain about something that is a 100% you issue.