1. #1

    Didn't Bolvar and Arthas have access to death magic?

    They talk about how Sylvanas showed off a new type of magic when she killed Varok, which we now know is death magic.

    This confuses me though. Doesn't either iteration of the Lich king have access to that magic? feels a bit weird that they don't.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathknightish View Post
    They talk about how Sylvanas showed off a new type of magic when she killed Varok, which we now know is death magic.

    This confuses me though. Doesn't either iteration of the Lich king have access to that magic? feels a bit weird that they don't.
    Well Bolvar and Arthas didn't have access to the latest software helm of domination software patch which had a known bug to not allow death chain magic.

    But all jokes aside there's a quote from Primus saying that Zovaal was able to forge his chains into a weapon.

    Slyvannas literally is doing some chain magic thing which was of a different order than what the helm of domination and in the case of Arthas what frostmourne offered. So perhaps it was this magic that Slyvannas was tapping into which wasn't accessible or knowingly accessible by Arthas/Bolvar/Nerzhul.

    Now it's possible that they could have had access to this magic but in regards to Bolvar, he was actively stopping himself from being controlled by the Jailer. He spoke of a voice that wasn't Arthas or Nerzhul, which would be the Jailer. So one would think that if he had given in a bit, perhaps he could have tapped into that power too? But at what cost...?
    Last edited by tommyhil622; 2020-10-26 at 12:54 PM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathknightish View Post
    They talk about how Sylvanas showed off a new type of magic when she killed Varok, which we now know is death magic.

    This confuses me though. Doesn't either iteration of the Lich king have access to that magic? feels a bit weird that they don't.
    Bolvar didn't show any versus Sylvanas, and necromancy can be achieved through different means.

    Arthas however used all kinds of magic that certainly seemed death-y, but given hus (WC3) vulnerability to light it might've been shadow or void powered in basis.
    And let's not forget how they hamhanded Yogg-Saron into all that during WotLK, while having him display various abilities that seemed to match the scourge powers (thinking especially of his plagues and literal extinction magic enrage mechanic).

    And let's not forget that the Legion created the Scourge, and fel too can mimic death magic up to and including necromancy (and that is without considering that the Legion has had no issue using shadow and void creatures and magic too).
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  4. #4
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    One would assume the Lich King had access to plenty of Death magic, but probably not the rarefied form of it that the Jailer provided Sylvanas. Spells like Defile, Infest, Shadow Trap, and Pain and Suffering all seem like they'd be in the general Death category of abilities.
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  5. #5
    That's one of the main issues with DK imo. The class has not actual focus on shadowy death magics.

    Blood- Purely blood related and closer to Venthyr

    Frost- Resembles Lich King and is nothing close to shadow

    Unholy- Shadow purely in the sense of biological necromantic shenanigans. Maldraxxus material



    With that being said, no magic of the Maw can be seen on DKs. If anything, Spriest is closer to that and it's not even a Death affiliated spec. Perhaps the Maw is closer to the Void than Death? Who knows at present.

  6. #6
    I would also like to find out more about this.. death magic of sylvanas.

    I already got the memo of the chains made into a weapon. We see this with sylvanas vs bolvar. I mean we are still kinda waiting on more info on this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    One would assume the Lich King had access to plenty of Death magic, but probably not the rarefied form of it that the Jailer provided Sylvanas. Spells like Defile, Infest, Shadow Trap, and Pain and Suffering all seem like they'd be in the general Death category of abilities.
    The ez awnser to that.. is. Shadowlands is obviously fast forward and new lore and new things added. They probably didnt have this story back in wrath and no such thing as chain death magic was invented yet.

    But we dont know what kind of relationship arthas had with the jailer or if any. Also easy anwser is the jailer simply didnt excist at that point. Lorewise no one knows.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathknightish View Post
    They talk about how Sylvanas showed off a new type of magic when she killed Varok, which we now know is death magic.

    This confuses me though. Doesn't either iteration of the Lich king have access to that magic? feels a bit weird that they don't.
    Game mechanics and older lore heavily imply that the Lich King and the Scourge don't use "death magic" (which is a creation that didn't really exist prior to Chronicles) but rather a blend of Shadow and Fel magic (the original Plague is implied to be of Fel origin) which reflects the fact that the Lich King was a creation of the Burning Legion which itself mostly used Fel and Shadow magic. There's also overlap like both Warlocks and Death Knights historically being able to cast abilities like Death Coil though the Scourge Death Knights like Liches possess the added ability of tapping into corrupted elemental magic
    Ner'zhul granted them control over the furious elements of the cold north. Now, Liches wield frost magic along with their own considerable necromantic spells.
    Then again, one prominent lore document describes Necromancy as a school of arcane magic that merely twists powers we would otherwise consider to be connected to other domains in the same way e.g. an arcane fireball draws on elemental powers.
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2020-10-26 at 01:48 PM.

  8. #8
    Sure they did, but neither was an archer so yea..

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathknightish View Post
    They talk about how Sylvanas showed off a new type of magic when she killed Varok, which we now know is death magic.

    This confuses me though. Doesn't either iteration of the Lich king have access to that magic? feels a bit weird that they don't.
    Blizzard are bad writers.

    What does death magic even mean? It makes people dead?

  10. #10
    No one knows shit anymore, i miss the days where everything made sense and the lore doesnt get retconned every other expansion.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    One would assume the Lich King had access to plenty of Death magic, but probably not the rarefied form of it that the Jailer provided Sylvanas. Spells like Defile, Infest, Shadow Trap, and Pain and Suffering all seem like they'd be in the general Death category of abilities.
    Given what Arthas' motivations/actions were, I think it would be unlikely that he would use magic which would completely and utterly shutdown the champions that faced him (i.e.: he had the power to kill us all with a single spell that he could cast instantly, but he tested us before doing so).
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  12. #12
    They must have, but only retroactively. That Sylvanas showed off a "new" type of magic is likely in reference to it being a recent addition to the lore.

    Not that there's anything about what Sylvanas did that would visually distinguish it as death magic. I wonder what other kind of magic allows you to shoot a shadowy bolt at your foes?

  13. #13
    I took that less to mean they'd never seen death magic and more to mean they've never seen that particular type of death magic. Similar to how most students will likely have seen an exothermic reaction in chemistry class, but seeing an atomic explosion is on a whole other scale, despite that being an exothermic chemical reaction.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathknightish View Post
    They talk about how Sylvanas showed off a new type of magic when she killed Varok, which we now know is death magic.

    This confuses me though. Doesn't either iteration of the Lich king have access to that magic? feels a bit weird that they don't.
    They had access to types of death mage, primarily necromancy.

    Sylvanas seemingly has access to "raw" death magic i.e. access to power directly from the maw/jailer.

  15. #15
    It is sufficient for my head-canon to say that Arthas used Decay magic, which is the Physical Plane's manifestation of Death magic, to temper the element of Water (Frost), spread Plague, Parasites and Disease (the inverse of how a Druid might spread Pollen, Spores and Insects using Spirit magic) and had some access to Anima manipulation (Blood magic has been long established, I think we're working with the future assumption that Blood Magic is Anima Magic is Death Magic?).

    Necromancy, somewhat counter-intuitively, doesn't seem to be a Death magic exclusive. Even just historically within the Scourge we've got different "tiers" of necromancy; Banshees, Liches, Abominations, Ghouls. I mean the very first incarnation of Necromancy we ever saw used Fel to transfer spirits into native corpses. Since then we've seen things like the Ur'zuls in Argus and the Amalgamation of Souls and stuff.

    It also depends how loose we start playing with the term necromancy. Artificially stopping ageing or illness using Life/Light/Arcane magic is certainly pretty "not of the natural cycle". I can't imagine the Shadowlands were very happy when all those juiced up Kaldorei, saturated with their Titan radiation from the Well, stopped funnelling into the cycles of death and rebirth. We've got a machine to run here people.

    So this "pure" Death magic is plausibly something we've never seen before, or at least have never been able to observe, since it is an extra-dimensional magic from outside the physical realm. It can probably only partially manifest in the physical realm similar to the Void Lords and, to my personal belief, Elune's direct influence. I also think the "raw" form of Arcane and Fel magics will the the powers of "Creation" and "Unmaking" that we've seen alluded to in late Legion and throughout the Azerite parts of BfA's story; this idea of assembly and dissipation of matter and energy without a source or point of transfer. But I'm sure we'll see someday.
    Last edited by thesmall001; 2020-10-26 at 02:39 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    I would also like to find out more about this.. death magic of sylvanas.

    I already got the memo of the chains made into a weapon. We see this with sylvanas vs bolvar. I mean we are still kinda waiting on more info on this.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The ez awnser to that.. is. Shadowlands is obviously fast forward and new lore and new things added. They probably didnt have this story back in wrath and no such thing as chain death magic was invented yet.

    But we dont know what kind of relationship arthas had with the jailer or if any. Also easy anwser is the jailer simply didnt excist at that point. Lorewise no one knows.
    And yet abilities like Chains of Ice exist, which the Lich King would have canonically taught the original Death Knights. Flaming Chains are also learned via Azerite the new generation of DKs on their own - so is the player stronger than Bolvar as the Lich King? The player DK will also have access to Shackle the Unworthy in SL, a third chain ability.

  17. #17
    theres a simple reason why sylvanas used death magic we havent seen yet: it didnt exist before. the jailer, the shadowlands (like we seem them now), anima, all that didnt exist back in WC3 and WOTLK

    in-universe, you can just say the jailer was only able to grant these powers to beings now, because he got so much power during BfA

    the whole concept of "death" magic being its own realm is in itself just dumb as hell, because we have seen many powers before being able to ressurect the dead etc.
    fel was used to create the first DKs, in WC3 we had many indications that the plague was fel based, and in WoD the shadowmoon used void to ressurect countless undead
    same as void and fel pretty much to the same (they corrupt all things they touch, consume souls and are addicting), death magic just does the same things we have seen already
    Last edited by Houle; 2020-10-26 at 04:25 PM.
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  18. #18
    it was just a more powerful form of death magic? like directly from the jailer?
    death magic on steroids.

  19. #19
    Because between WotLK and now they shoehorned in the 'death' universal force... and it feels un-original cause almost everything around it is a retcon of previous content.
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